Hummingbirds Disprove Creationism

[Dale]

No, it was Einstein who said that time is an illusion.

Einstein didn't believe the world was created 6.000 years ago.
Einstein spent his life studying and elucidating the natue of time and space. He certainly did not believe they were meaningless.

 

[Dale]

Seems like some never got further than false Sunday School images of just two by two...then stake their eternity on that misinfo...

Take with you seven pairs of all clean animals, the male and his mate, and a pair of the animals that are not clean, the male and his mate, and seven pairs of the birds of the heavens also, male and female, to keep their offspring alive on the face of all the earth.
(Gen 7:2-3)

Well we can deposit what truth we do have and the rest might have to wait until...
For now we see in a mirror dimly, but then face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I have been fully known.
(1Co 13:12)

I have quoted the passage about seven pairs to creationists before. You're not telling me anything I don't know about. Creationists have always corrected me, saying that applies to clean animals.

As far as the distribution of hummingbirds around the world, one pair or seven pairs makes no difference. Either way, we still need to know how they got to the Americas without colonizing Asia. I don't see any way it could be done or any reason to believe it would happen that way.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

I wonder if 12 hummingbirds all together in one space
could even prove 2+2=4 ?

 

[crossnote]

I have quoted the passage about seven pairs to creationists before. You're not telling me anything I don't know about. Creationists have always corrected me, saying that applies to clean animals.

As far as the distribution of hummingbirds around the world, one pair or seven pairs makes no difference. Either way, we still need to know how they got to the Americas without colonizing Asia. I don't see any way it could be done or any reason to believe it would happen that way.

Some talk of Continental drift and/or the world being divided shortly after the Tower of Babel (different languages on different continents).
I'm not sure your motive for bringing up hummingbirds, there are facts about them that can only point to an intelligent Designer...

• Each species of hummingbird makes a different humming sound, determined by the number of wing beats per second.
• They can hover in mid-air by rapidly flapping their wings 12–90 times per second (depending on the species).
• During courtship, the wingtips of the ruby-throated hummingbird beats up to 200 times per second, as opposed to the usual wing beat of 90 times per second. When the female appears, her partner displays by flying to and fro in a perfect arc. The pair then dives up and down vertically, facing each other.
• They can also fly backwards, and are the only group of birds able to do so.
• They can fly at speeds exceeding 15 m/s or 54 km/h.
• Male hummingbirds are reported to have achieved speeds of almost 400 body lengths per second when swooping in an effort to impress females.
• They have feet so tiny that they cannot walk on the ground, and find it awkward to shuffle along a perch.
• They have a short, high-pitched squeaky call.
• Some are so small, they have been known to be caught by dragonflies and praying mantis, trapped in spider’s webs, snatched by frogs and stuck on thistles.
• The hummingbird needs to eat twice its bodyweight in food every day, and to do so they must visit hundreds of flowers daily.
• Hummingbirds eat nectar for the most part, although they may catch an insect now and then for a protein boost.
• Their super fast wing beats use up a lot of energy, so they spend most of the day sitting around resting. To save energy at night, many species go into torpor (a short-term decrease in body temperature and metabolic rate).
• Despite their tiny size, the ruby-throated hummingbird makes a remarkable annual migration, flying over 3000km from the eastern USA, crossing over 1000km of the Gulf of Mexico in a single journey to winter in Central America.
• The ruby-throated hummingbird has only approximately 940 feathers on its entire body.
• Before migrating, the hummingbird stores a layer of fat equal to half its body weight.
• The female hummingbird builds a tiny nest high up in a tree, often up to six metres from the ground. She coats the outside with lichen and small pieces of bark and lines the inside with plant material.
• The male takes no responsibility in rearing the young and may find another mate after the first brood hatches.
• Some species of hummingbird are so rare that they have been identified only from the skins exported to Europe.
• http://www.onekind.org/education/animals_a_z/hummingbird

Look at these pics and tell me that it all came about by chance...
http://mentalfloss.com/article/62820/9-adorable-facts-about-hummingbirds

 

[Dale]

Some talk of Continental drift and/or the world being divided shortly after the Tower of Babel (different languages on different continents).
I'm not sure your motive for bringing up hummingbirds, there are facts about them that can only point to an intelligent Designer...

• Each species of hummingbird makes a different humming sound, determined by the number of wing beats per second.
• They can hover in mid-air by rapidly flapping their wings 12–90 times per second (depending on the species).
• During courtship, the wingtips of the ruby-throated hummingbird beats up to 200 times per second, as opposed to the usual wing beat of 90 times per second. When the female appears, her partner displays by flying to and fro in a perfect arc. The pair then dives up and down vertically, facing each other.
• They can also fly backwards, and are the only group of birds able to do so.
• They can fly at speeds exceeding 15 m/s or 54 km/h.
• Male hummingbirds are reported to have achieved speeds of almost 400 body lengths per second when swooping in an effort to impress females.
• They have feet so tiny that they cannot walk on the ground, and find it awkward to shuffle along a perch.
• They have a short, high-pitched squeaky call.
• Some are so small, they have been known to be caught by dragonflies and praying mantis, trapped in spider’s webs, snatched by frogs and stuck on thistles.
• The hummingbird needs to eat twice its bodyweight in food every day, and to do so they must visit hundreds of flowers daily.
• Hummingbirds eat nectar for the most part, although they may catch an insect now and then for a protein boost.
• Their super fast wing beats use up a lot of energy, so they spend most of the day sitting around resting. To save energy at night, many species go into torpor (a short-term decrease in body temperature and metabolic rate).
• Despite their tiny size, the ruby-throated hummingbird makes a remarkable annual migration, flying over 3000km from the eastern USA, crossing over 1000km of the Gulf of Mexico in a single journey to winter in Central America.
• The ruby-throated hummingbird has only approximately 940 feathers on its entire body.
• Before migrating, the hummingbird stores a layer of fat equal to half its body weight.
• The female hummingbird builds a tiny nest high up in a tree, often up to six metres from the ground. She coats the outside with lichen and small pieces of bark and lines the inside with plant material.
• The male takes no responsibility in rearing the young and may find another mate after the first brood hatches.
• Some species of hummingbird are so rare that they have been identified only from the skins exported to Europe.
• http://www.onekind.org/education/animals_a_z/hummingbird

Look at these pics and tell me that it all came about by chance...
http://mentalfloss.com/article/62820/9-adorable-facts-about-hummingbirds

Darwinian evolution is not chance.
It's a specific process.

 

[crossnote]

Darwinian evolution is not chance.
It's a specific process.

I don't recall using the word 'chance' or even 'evolution'.
But now that you brought up the word 'chance'...ok, 'evolution' is a process whose foundation is 'chance'.

 

[ScottA]

I didn't find your quote from the Osvaldo Nunez link.
I have no idea who you are quoting.
I'm not sure this is a good source for science news.

In my experience creationists do not identify a Biblical kind with a biological species.
They have suggested that a Biblical kind can be identified with a taxonomic family.

Hummingbirds compose the taxonomic family Trochilidae.
If you're going to go further up the ladder than that, we're not talking about the same creature.

The point I was making...is that since biological sources do not agree, if you take the scientific side, it is nothing more than a matter of what you believe.

 

[ScottA]

Einstein didn't believe the world was created 6.000 years ago.
Einstein spent his life studying and elucidating the natue of time and space. He certainly did not believe they were meaningless.

I never said time was meaningless either. But I concur (with Einstein), time is indeed "an illusion" - moreover, it is the fools gold of science.

 

[Rhapsody]

Hi Armoured,
Thanks for your question.

Hummingbird fossil sets experts buzzing

Fossils of the world's oldest known modern hummingbird have been unearthed in Germany, the first discovery of ancient skeletons of the tiny nectar-sucking bird outside the American continent, scientists said.

Dr Gerald Mayr, a zoologist from Forschungsinstitut Senckenberg, a Frankfurt natural history museum, published details of the ancient bird in the current issue of the journal Science.

"This is the oldest convincing record of modern-type hummingbirds," he said.

The extinct European bird, which lived in Germany about 29 million years ago, had a long beak that it used to suck nectar from flowers, and wings allowing it to hover while feeding, Mayr said.

The next oldest modern hummingbird fossils, one million years old, have been found in South America,he said.

Mayr unearthed a pair of skeletons, each 4 centimetres long, near the village of Frauenweiler in southern Germany.

"It's fun to study species from this time periodinEarth's history, the early Oligocene, because some of the species begin [to] resemble modern species," he said.

The skeletons show characteristics of modern hummingbirds, including their tiny size, their upper arm bone, and long beaks, which are 2.5 times larger than their craniums.

The skeletons also had shoulders that would have allowed the wings to rotate, a key feature that gives hummingbirds their ability to hover andeven flybackward.

But the tips of the beaks were lost.

Mayr dubbed the new species Eurotrochilus inexpectatus, or "unexpected European version of Trochilus".

Trochilus is the name for modern hummingbirds that measure 10 centimetres from the tip of their beaks to the end of their tails.

Hummingbirds are found in the American continent, but their long lost cousins could have helped determine the shape of some Asian and African flowers existing today, Mayr said.

Flowers and the birds may have evolved together in a process called "coevolution", he said.

The hummingbird's disappearance from Europe, Africa and Asia is unclear. But Mayr said it could be due to ecological competition with other birds or insects.

Assistant Professor Margaret Rubega of the University of Connecticut told Science she was "amazed" by the find.

"The amazing thing about this fossil is that it's essentially a modern hummingbird," she said. "My mind is a little blown."

http://www.abc.net.au/science/news/enviro/EnviroRepublish_1103307.htm

http://science.sciencemag.org/content/304/5672/861

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

footnote: note all the deception and false assumptions and false conclusions/ false "facts" accepted world wide.....
in the 'scientific' (very biased) reports.

 

[SeventyOne]

A few facts and a conclusion:

Hummingbirds live in the Americas but not in the Old World of Europe, Africa or Asia.
There are hundreds of hummingbird species in South America but only 15 to 17 in North America.
Conclusion: It looks like hummingbirds evolved in South America.


The Creationist view:

According to Creationists, there were only two hummingbirds on earth when Noah and the Ark landed on Mt. Ararat, or the Ararat range. This happened a few thousand years ago.

If all the hummingbird species in the world are descended from two birds a few thousand years ago, we would expect the greatest number of species to be near the point of origin. Given that hummingbirds aren't evenly distributed throughout the world, we would expect the greatest number of species to be within one or two thousand miles of where they started. Perhaps it isn't surprising that these small birds haven't been able to colonize the entire world. Any creationist would expect to find the greatest variety of these birds near the Ararat range.


Question for the Creationists:
How did hummingbirds get to the Americas without passing through Asia?

Hypothetically speaking, if at some point the bird migration gaps were filled and you do see they came from the middle east/Asia areas, would you believe Creationism or just find another excuse to do otherwise?

There's no way to tell exactly how some creature got to some places but the book of Genesis tells us earth was divided about 6 generations after Noah, however many years that turned out to be. Plenty of time for animals to migrate about to some places and die off in others. The world looked much differently then. If you look through a word study of mountains, you discover in several places that after the flood, the Lord raised mountains and lowered valleys around the earth to distribute the floods waters into their proper places. It seems that was completed in the days of Peleg.

 

[Dale]

Some talk of Continental drift and/or the world being divided shortly after the Tower of Babel (different languages on different continents).
I'm not sure your motive for bringing up hummingbirds, there are facts about them that can only point to an intelligent Designer...

• Each species of hummingbird makes a different humming sound, determined by the number of wing beats per second.
• They can hover in mid-air by rapidly flapping their wings 12–90 times per second (depending on the species).
• During courtship, the wingtips of the ruby-throated hummingbird beats up to 200 times per second, as opposed to the usual wing beat of 90 times per second. When the female appears, her partner displays by flying to and fro in a perfect arc. The pair then dives up and down vertically, facing each other.
• They can also fly backwards, and are the only group of birds able to do so.
• They can fly at speeds exceeding 15 m/s or 54 km/h.
• Male hummingbirds are reported to have achieved speeds of almost 400 body lengths per second when swooping in an effort to impress females.
• They have feet so tiny that they cannot walk on the ground, and find it awkward to shuffle along a perch.
• They have a short, high-pitched squeaky call.
• Some are so small, they have been known to be caught by dragonflies and praying mantis, trapped in spider’s webs, snatched by frogs and stuck on thistles.
• The hummingbird needs to eat twice its bodyweight in food every day, and to do so they must visit hundreds of flowers daily.
• Hummingbirds eat nectar for the most part, although they may catch an insect now and then for a protein boost.
• Their super fast wing beats use up a lot of energy, so they spend most of the day sitting around resting. To save energy at night, many species go into torpor (a short-term decrease in body temperature and metabolic rate).
• Despite their tiny size, the ruby-throated hummingbird makes a remarkable annual migration, flying over 3000km from the eastern USA, crossing over 1000km of the Gulf of Mexico in a single journey to winter in Central America.
• The ruby-throated hummingbird has only approximately 940 feathers on its entire body.
• Before migrating, the hummingbird stores a layer of fat equal to half its body weight.
• The female hummingbird builds a tiny nest high up in a tree, often up to six metres from the ground. She coats the outside with lichen and small pieces of bark and lines the inside with plant material.
• The male takes no responsibility in rearing the young and may find another mate after the first brood hatches.
• Some species of hummingbird are so rare that they have been identified only from the skins exported to Europe.
• http://www.onekind.org/education/animals_a_z/hummingbird

Look at these pics and tell me that it all came about by chance...
http://mentalfloss.com/article/62820/9-adorable-facts-about-hummingbirds

I don't recall using the word 'chance' or even 'evolution'.
But now that you brought up the word 'chance'...ok, 'evolution' is a process whose foundation is 'chance'.

In Post #24, Crossnote said:
"Look at these pics and tell me that it all came about by chance..."

That's what I was responding to. Living things are not the result of chance but the result of a complex process.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That's what I was responding to. Living things are not the result of chance but the result of a complex process.

Called CREATION and BIRTH (or hatching/ et al).

 

[Dale]

Hypothetically speaking, if at some point the bird migration gaps were filled and you do see they came from the middle east/Asia areas, would you believe Creationism or just find another excuse to do otherwise?

There's no way to tell exactly how some creature got to some places but the book of Genesis tells us earth was divided about 6 generations after Noah, however many years that turned out to be. Plenty of time for animals to migrate about to some places and die off in others. The world looked much differently then. If you look through a word study of mountains, you discover in several places that after the flood, the Lord raised mountains and lowered valleys around the earth to distribute the floods waters into their proper places. It seems that was completed in the days of Peleg.

Genesis 10&11 is about the Tower of Babel and the beginning of language divisions. You are taking the mention of division and assuming that means re-arranging the continents. That's a very wild assumption.

No Biblical scholar believes this.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

That's a very wild assumption.

No Biblical scholar believes this.

...
as if that's more wild than thinking a pile of poo goo could become a man !

 

[SeventyOne]

Genesis 10&11 is about the Tower of Babel and the beginning of language divisions. You are taking the mention of division and assuming that means re-arranging the continents. That's a very wild assumption.

No Biblical scholar believes this.

Now you know one. You can never truthfully make that claim again.

 

[Colter]

A few facts and a conclusion:

Hummingbirds live in the Americas but not in the Old World of Europe, Africa or Asia.
There are hundreds of hummingbird species in South America but only 15 to 17 in North America.
Conclusion: It looks like hummingbirds evolved in South America.


The Creationist view:

According to Creationists, there were only two hummingbirds on earth when Noah and the Ark landed on Mt. Ararat, or the Ararat range. This happened a few thousand years ago.

If all the hummingbird species in the world are descended from two birds a few thousand years ago, we would expect the greatest number of species to be near the point of origin. Given that hummingbirds aren't evenly distributed throughout the world, we would expect the greatest number of species to be within one or two thousand miles of where they started. Perhaps it isn't surprising that these small birds haven't been able to colonize the entire world. Any creationist would expect to find the greatest variety of these birds near the Ararat range.


Question for the Creationists:
How did hummingbirds get to the Americas without passing through Asia?

A lot of things disprove YEC.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

A lot of things disprove YEC.

Only man made things. [including man made science]

 

[Colter]

Only man made things. [including man made science]

Proof that God used evolution to create life as we know it is in the fossil record.

The Hebrew priest created the creation story in the Genesis.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

Only if you dis-believe YHWH and believe instead men who are deceived.

Proof that God used evolution to create life as we know it is in the fossil record.

---------------------------------------------------
Not according to YHWH HIMSELF, and HIS WORD.

The Hebrew priest created the creation story in the Genesis.