Humanism

[Skavau]

If you believe that you're good you are deluded.

This is just another assertion. Humans are not explicitly bad or good by default but we do have the tendency for good and the societal structure established to encourage it.

That said, Humanism is more than just declaring humans good anyway.

 

[brightlights]

Humans are not explicitly bad or good by default

but we do have the tendency for good

I'm confused how these two statements fit together.

 

[Skavau]

I'm confused how these two statements fit together.

That we can be good, not that we are to be inherently labelled as good at birth.

 

[brightlights]

What does that have to do with humanism?


eudaimonia,

Mark

The video on page 1 said that humanism is the attempt to be a good person. Is this a mistake?

 

[brightlights]

That we can be good, not that we are to be inherently labelled as good at birth.

You said that we have a tendency toward good. Is this what you meant to say?

 

[Skavau]

You said that we have a tendency toward good. Is this what you meant to say?

Yes.

This is not the same though as immediately labeling everyone as good at birth.

Humanism is more than just labeling humanity a certain way. It is broadly the promotion of human interests and values.

 

[brightlights]

Yes.

Well let me rephrase then. If you believe that humans have a tendency toward good you are deluded.

Do you lock your doors?

 

[brightlights]

Or let me ask this:

Do you find it difficult to be good or does it come naturally?

 

[Skavau]

Well let me rephrase then. If you believe that humans have a tendency toward good you are deluded.

We also have a tendency to do bad. The secular first-world fortunately includes societies that tries as much as it can to reward good behaviour and punish bad behaviour.

Do you lock your doors?

See this is said often. Suppose I stopped locking my door for a month.

What do you think the chances of my burglary would be? Would they go up? Would anyone know that I'd have locked my door? Do you think that people go around all the time constantly checking doors to see if they're open so they can steal stuff?

 

[Skavau]

Or let me ask this:

Do you find it difficult to be good or does it come naturally?

I find it comes naturally. I have a natural feeling of contempt towards those who I perceive to be doing wrong and natural tendency to judge actions I believe to be wrong.

 

[brightlights]

We also have a tendency to do bad. The secular first-world fortunately includes societies that tries as much as it can to reward good behaviour and punish bad behaviour.

I agree. We have laws to try to restrain evil but I think this only makes it more obvious that humans are messed up. The very fact that laws are necessary testifies to the fact that we are not inclined toward good.

What do you mean that we have two tendencies? How is that possible?

See this is said often. Suppose I stopped locking my door for a month.

What do you think the chances of my burglary would be? Would they go up? Would anyone know that I'd have locked my door? Do you think that people go around all the time constantly checking doors to see if they're open so they can steal stuff?

Locks exist for a reason.

 

[brightlights]

I find it comes naturally. I have a natural feeling of contempt towards those who I perceive to be doing wrong and natural tendency to judge actions I believe to be wrong.

Then maybe you are good. Certainly a better man than me.

 

[Skavau]

I agree. We have laws to try to restrain evil but I think this only makes it more obvious that humans are messed up. The very fact that laws are necessary testifies to the fact that we are not inclined toward good.

Why do you think those laws exist in the first place? Why do you think most people seem to feel a repulsion for those they think do bad? If we are as bad as you think then why would we even have come this far?

What do you mean that we have two tendencies? How is that possible?

That we can be drawn to doing good or doing bad. Interestingly enough, and I have observed this in the religious mostly, that few people do evil for reasons of malice but do it because they are convinced it is righteous.

Locks exist for a reason.

Yes, they do. Not my point though.

 

[Skavau]

Then maybe you are good. Certainly a better man than me.

So you have no natural feeling towards people who you judge are committing evil? You feel no guilt when you think you have done wrong or no indignation at witnessing others malpractice?

 

[brightlights]

So you have no natural feeling towards people who you judge are committing evil?

I find that I am inclined to care more about myself than injustices in the world. If the injustices affect me then certainly I care but if they don't I am inclined not to care.

You feel no guilt when you think you have done wrong or no indignation at witnessing others malpractice?

I feel guilt in a sense. But I am usually more concerned with negative consequences than actually changing my behavior.

The only reason I would feel indignant toward others who are doing wrong is if I think that I'm better than them. This is also another inclination that I have.

 

[brightlights]

Why do you think those laws exist in the first place?

Laws exist because they must.

Why do you think most people seem to feel a repulsion for those they think do bad?

Because they think they're better than them.

If we are as bad as you think then why would we even have come this far?

Grace.

That we can be drawn to doing good or doing bad.

What makes it go one way or the other?

Interestingly enough, and I have observed this in the religious mostly, that few people do evil for reasons of malice but do it because they are convinced it is righteous.

I agree. The way of man seems right in his own eyes.

 

[Skavau]

Laws exist because they must.

This is a non-answer. This is like saying "just because." That the world by in large has legislation against anti-social behaviour should tell you that humanity puts more worth on good than you think.

Because they think they're better than them.

How do you know this isn't projection? I am sure this kind of pride might surface sometimes in some people but it certainly is not remotely true for all judgements of evil.

Shouldn't it intrigue you that an ideology such as Humanism even exists. It is explicitly non-religious and entirely naturalistic yet those who encourage it do so for the effort of encouraging what they view as good.

Grace.

This answer is white noise to me.

What makes it go one way or the other?

Societal influence and pressure as well as educational background and belief system. Probably much more influences as well.

Even things such as personality types and disorders.

I agree. The way of man seems right in his own eyes.

As ugly as I find people who promote evil thinking it is good there's a certain point here: No-one (or very few) do evil for the purposes of evil. Many think they are entirely justified. They are in their own minds doing what they see as good.

 

[OneWithTime]

Presumed is the key word.

Well of course it is only an assumption but it is better then putting faith in people still. That is the point of it

 

[Eudaimonist]

Well let me rephrase then. If you believe that humans have a tendency toward good you are deluded.

Do you lock your doors?

If you were to leave your door unlocked, you would have nothing to fear from myself, and from quite a few other people. There are plenty of people that I have known over the years who I would trust with my wallet.

Seeing human beings as having some tendency towards good isn't the same thing as saying that everyone actually is good.

(BTW, I see people as born morally neutral -- not as evil Orcs!!! -- but with a capacity to increase in virtue.)


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Eudaimonist]

Do you find it difficult to be good or does it come naturally?

I find that at least some goodness (specifically in the sense of a desire to be a good person) does come naturally, or at least appears to do so. It's possible that this is the result of good parenting.

Acting good in some situations may be difficult if greater courage than I am currently capable of is required.


eudaimonia,

Mark