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human?

Spawn

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Phred said:
Anti-abortionists make lots of claims... one of the most heinous is calling themselves pro-life while supporting the death penalty.
and it amazes me that you put the more value on the life of a child molestor than on the life of a child.

Erring on the side of life but letting a ban on automatic weapons expire.
rotfl. the ban that expired was silly. Automatic weapons such as AK47s and UZIs were never covered by the ban in question - they were outlawed by a different bill. This law just outlawed riffels. But you'd have to do some research to know that.

No... this is about forcing your morality upon others, even if it means women lose control of their own bodies to make you comfortable. If you really and truly want people to back you, then you've got to be consistent, not just moral when it's convenient.
Please - the only way the woman looses her ability to choose is if she gets pregant by rape. Every other time she gets pregant it is QUITE by her choice.
 
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Spawn

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xMinionX said:
I would have appreciated it if someone had linked me to the thread my my words were the basis for the OP. I had to hunt for a while to find it.



Your question is based on the premise that the fetus inside the womb has 'life' as we know it. As I have already said many times, most pro-choicers do not see the fetus as having life, and so cannot knowingly inflict death upon it.
so tell me what we must have to possess life?
 
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Spawn

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xMinionX said:
I can't speak for everyone else, but I consider life to begin when brainwaves can be detected. I think that is towards the end of the first trimester, but my memory is shaky on that one.
so . . . a plant is not alive?
 
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Spawn

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xMinionX said:
We're talking about human life. I doubt you'd have much of a problem if I burned a fern in my back yard.
SO wait - a fetus is life and Human, but not human life? Splain that one.
 
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Phred

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Spawn said:
The right of the mother to what? choose? Um - I hate to break it to you, but BOTH parents choose when they commit the act that resulted in the pregnancy - UNLESS she was raped and guess what - rape accounts for roughly 2% of all abortions. 90% of abortions are for selfish reasons. But this thread is not about WHY it is done - it is about whether or not a fetus is human - and if it is not human, what is it then??
Irrelevant. The father is not being asked to donate blood and organs, the mother is. Rape is irrelevant, the father is irrelevant. Unless you are going to choose to start supporting enforced maternity and change the laws of our society forever. What you advocate means that a woman simply has no control of her body. You're choosing someone not born over someone who is already here and functioning. That's a choice you can only make for yourself, not others.

And you're misrepresenting what this thread is about. You're trying to hide your anti-abortion thread behind a veneer of whether a fetus is human. It is human, it is not a human being. But in the case of abortion, that is irrelevant.

Are you going to answer anything I've posted or will you just continue to drone on about things that are not relevant?


.
 
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jayem

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Phred said:
Each and every time this debate comes up one very important thing is left completely out. The rights of the mother.


This is correct.

It's not a question of biology. It's a question of law.

An embryo is certainly alive and human in a biological sense. So are living human cells in tissue culture.

But an embryo doesn't yet have 14th Amendment rights not to be deprived of life, liberty, and property. It doesn't yet have rights which supercede those of its mother. The Constitution never defines the unborn as a legal "person."
And contrary to what some believe, there is no long tradition in law for considering a fetus as a legal "person" with the same rights as a child or baby. (This is discussed at some length in Justice Blackmun's opinion in Roe v. Wade. Even if you don't agree with the ruling, everyone should read the legal history which it includes.)

That is the real question. When is a fetus a "person?"

IMO, it acquires rights at either of two points, whichever comes first:

1) When it is born

2) If still in utero, when it is naturally viable--24-25 weeks.
 
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Phred

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Spawn said:
and it amazes me that you put the more value on the life of a child molestor than on the life of a child.
So it's not about life, but about the value you put on life. See, there you go, moving the goalposts all over the place. Oh, and when did the US start executing child molesters? Can you not make a single argument without base appeals to emotion devoid of facts?

rotfl. the ban that expired was silly. Automatic weapons such as AK47s and UZIs were never covered by the ban in question - they were outlawed by a different bill. This law just outlawed riffels. But you'd have to do some research to know that.
Err on the side of life. That's pretty plain and simple. To err on the side of life you ban automatic weapons, even if the ban is silly. Are you unable to understand your own rhetoric?

Please - the only way the woman looses her ability to choose is if she gets pregant by rape. Every other time she gets pregant it is QUITE by her choice.
Irrelevant. She doesn't have to donate blood or organs unless she chooses to do so. Again, this isn't about choice, or pregnancy. It's about your placing more value upon an unborn child because you see it as completely innocent. You're willing to toss the mother onto the trash heap because you see her as having already sinned. I'm sorry, but your personal beliefs are not reason enough to violate the rights of people regarding their own bodies. Unless you want me deciding who deserves your heart more... you or someone who needs a transplant.

.
 
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Phred

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jayem said:
That is the real question. When is a fetus a "person?"

IMO, it acquires rights at either of two points, whichever comes first:

1) When it is born

2) If still in utero, when it is naturally viable--24-25 weeks.
And even then the "rights" of this person are superceded by the choice of the mother. She does not have to donate her blood and organs if she chooses not to. Even if it means another person dies in the process.


.
 
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Marek

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Phred said:
And even then the "rights" of this person are superceded by the choice of the mother. She does not have to donate her blood and organs if she chooses not to. Even if it means another person dies in the process.
Your view is foolish and has basically been disregarded by nearly all experts in the abortion argument. Your view seems to be that of Judith Thomson's example of the famous violinist. This view has been shown to be wrong by several philosophers, both pro-life and pro-choice, such as Tooley, Warren, Steinbock, and Marquis. Even Thomson admits that her argument is not an argument for a general abortion. You really only have a case if the pregnancy resulted from rape.
 
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lawtonfogle

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Spawn said:
My thread. And I only posted the quote to give a reference for my question.

If a fetus is not human - what is it?

(this is based on that the species are defined genetically)

Humans are Homo sapiens

Homo sapiens are a species containg 46 chromosomes which have genes specific to Homo sapiens. (maybe more or less if genecitally retarded)

The fetus has those 46 choromosomes.

So... The fetus is a human:idea:


is there anything wrong with this thought:confused:
 
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xMinionX

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lawtonfogle said:
(this is based on that the species are defined genetically)

Humans are Homo sapiens

Homo sapiens are a species containg 46 chromosomes which have genes specific to Homo sapiens. (maybe more or less if genecitally retarded)

The fetus has those 46 choromosomes.

So... The fetus is a human:idea:


is there anything wrong with this thought:confused:

A chemist extracts the 46 human chromosomes and puts them in a jar [excuse my lack of scientific knowledge, bear with me]. Does that chemist have a human in a jar?
 
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Phred

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Marek said:
Your view is foolish and has basically been disregarded by nearly all experts in the abortion argument. Your view seems to be that of Judith Thomson's example of the famous violinist. This view has been shown to be wrong by several philosophers, both pro-life and pro-choice, such as Tooley, Warren, Steinbock, and Marquis. Even Thomson admits that her argument is not an argument for a general abortion. You really only have a case if the pregnancy resulted from rape.
No... You'd like to restrict it to rape. But how the pregnancey came about is irrelevant. Are you going to force women to donate organs against their will? Can you justify taking blood from them without their permission? What makes you think that you can make a case for this? It's quite clear, a life does not have to be saved if it depends upon a person donating part of one's body.

BTW... I'd be much more impressed if you could show your knowledge of the positions of these people instead of tossing their names around like you know what they've said.


.


.
 
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Marek

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Phred said:
No... You'd like to restrict it to rape. But how the pregnancey came about is irrelevant. Are you going to force women to donate organs against their will? Can you justify taking blood from them without their permission? What makes you think that you can make a case for this? It's quite clear, a life does not have to be saved if it depends upon a person donating part of one's body.

BTW... I'd be much more impressed if you could show your knowledge of the positions of these people instead of tossing their names around like you know what they've said.

Judith Thomson said:
...They have therefore kidnapped you, and last night the violinist's circulatory system was plugged into yours, so that your kidneys can be used to extract poisons from his blood as well as your own. The director of the hospital now tells you, "Look, we're sorry the Society of Music Lovers did this to you-we would never have permitted it if we had known. But still, they did it, and the violinist now is plugged into you. To unplug you would be to kill him. But never mind, it's only for nine months. By then he will have revovered from his ailment, and can safely be unplugged from you." Is it morally incumbent on you to accede to this situation? No doubt it would be very nice of you if you did, a great kindness. But do you have to accede to it?...
She goes on to explain that you don't...
Judith Thomson said:
...while I do argue that abortion is not impermissible, I do not argue that it is always permissible. There may well be cases in which carrying the child to term requires only Minimally Decent Samaritanism of the mother, and this is a standard we must not fall below...
Michael Tooley said:
One very popular liberal line of argument involves arguing that there is another right involved, besides any right to life that the embryo or fetus may have - namely, the woman's right to control what happens inside her own body. The situation, accordingly, is one where there is a conflict of rights, and so one can attempt to argue that abortion is not wrong all things considered, because the woman's right to control what happens insider her own body counterbalances any right to life that the embryo or fetus may have.
The difficulty that this argument faces is that it is far from clear that the right to determine what happens inside of one's own body is at least as serious a right as the right to life. Imagine, for example, that there is a small transmitter inside of one's body that one is not aware of, that is not a threat to one's future health, that cannot be removed without being destroyed, and whose existence is necessary to maintain the life of someone outside of one's body. (Perhaps it transmits signals to a pacemaker inside that person.) Is it clear that it is morally permissible for one to remove that transmitter from one's body?
Donald Marquis said:
...One might then argue that the right to life seems to be a stronger right than the right to control one's own body in that case of abortion because the loss of one's life is a greater loss than the loss of the right to control one's own body in one respect for nine months. Therefore, the right to life overrrides the right to control one's own body and abortion is wrong. Considerations like these have suggested to both opponents of abortion and supporters of choice that a Thomsonian strategy for defending a general right to abortion will not succeed. In fairness, one must note that Thomson did not intend her strategy to generate a general moral permissibility of abortion.
 
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Spawn

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xMinionX said:
:sigh:
Fetus has life and is human when one can detect brainwaves. IMO.

Before that, it does not have life (beyond the individual cells), and it is not human.
Okay - it's dead and inhuman before that point?
 
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Spawn

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Phred said:
Irrelevant. The father is not being asked to donate blood and organs, the mother is.
so the mother should be doubly cautious before she beds someone then. I find it amusing to note that you discount the role of the father before the birth, but I'm sure you will insist that the father must pay child support after the birth even if he did not want the child.
Rape is irrelevant, the father is irrelevant.
interesting.
Unless you are going to choose to start supporting enforced maternity and change the laws of our society forever.
NO ONE is forcing a women to engage in sex uless the sex is via rape.
What you advocate means that a woman simply has no control of her body.
women have pleanty of control over ther bodies. They have control over who they have sex with an when and they get to face the results of those choices.
You're choosing someone not born over someone who is already here and functioning.
If it’s a matter of SELFISHNESS - of course I’m going to take the innocent parties side!
That's a choice you can only make for yourself, not others.
how are laws against child molestation or murder any different?

And you're misrepresenting what this thread is about. You're trying to hide your anti-abortion thread behind a veneer of whether a fetus is human.
YOU have made this a thread about pro- or anti- abortion. I’m ATTEMPTING to deal with a single issue - the humanity and life of an unborn child.


It is human, it is not a human being. But in the case of abortion, that is irrelevant.
Why is it irrelevant? How is the ending of a human beings life for SELFISHNESS via abortion any less murder than taking someones life in the midst of a robbery?

Are you going to answer anything I've posted or will you just continue to drone on about things that are not relevant?
While you may find human life irrelevant, not everyone does. I for one do find it relevant. You are of course welcome to leave and not bother with this thread anymore. We both know you won’t after all - as irrelevant as you want to pretend this is you keep coming back to it. lol
 
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Lokisdottir

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Spawn said:
NO ONE is forcing a women to engage in sex uless the sex is via rape. women have pleanty of control over ther bodies. They have control over who they have sex with an when and they get to face the results of those choices.
Condoms fail. Pills fail. Diaphragms fail. Even tubal ligations and vasectomies fail. A woman could take every precaution available, and still end up pregnant.

What you're saying, then, is that no woman should ever have sex unless she wants (or is at least willing) to have a child.
 
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