Human Population

[Son of the King]

You should check them out. The great differences in all these stories show that they could not have been handed down from one single family that was the ancestors of everyone on earth a few thousand years ago.
Here is one of my favorites
Nisqually (Washington):The people became so numerous that they ate all the fish and game and started to eat each other. They were so wicked that Dokibatl, the Changer, flooded the earth. All living things were destroyed except one woman and one dog, which survived atop Tacobud (Mt. Ranier). From them the next race of people were born.

Noah was a dog

Once again something creationists claim to be evidence for the global flood is actually evidence against it.

I know that most of these are myths. You might have us on how the world got repopulated with only a woman and a dog surviving but that is not what we believe. All I was pointing out is there seems to be pretty strong flood stories of some sort passed on through generations of various peoples.

 

[AV1611VET]

All I was pointing out is there seems to be pretty strong flood stories of some sort passed on through generations of various peoples.

They're baloney though -- cheap imitations of what really happened.

We call that diabolical plagiarism.

I don't trust anything outside of the King James Bible.

It's interesting that Shem lived right up to the time of Jacob's birth; giving eyewitness testimony of what really happened up to the time of the Patriarchs.

This would insure that none of those other fake stories got into the real account.

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

They're baloney though -- cheap imitations of what really happened.

We call that diabolical plagiarism.

I don't trust anything outside of the King James Bible.

It's interesting that Shem lived right up to the time of Jacob's birth; giving eyewitness testimony of what really happened up to the time of the Patriarchs.

This would insure that none of those other fake stories got into the real account.

So how did all those "fake stories" come about? Why are they all so different from the "real account" (that the Hebrews plagiarized from the Babylonians and Sumerians)? It is easily explained if there was no real global flood and these are all traditions that arose because of exaggerations of large local flooding events without resorting to ad hoc nonsense like diabolical plagiarism.

 

[AV1611VET]

So how did all those "fake stories" come about?

Unholy men of Satan spake as they were moved by the unholy spirit.

Why are they all so different from the "real account"...

Are you serious with this question?

Do you expect them all to be the same where Satan is involved?

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

Unholy men of Satan spake as they were moved by the unholy spirit.

Are you serious with this question?

Are you serious with this ad hoc nonsense answer?

Do you expect them all to be the same where Satan is involved?

Like I said, ad hoc nonsense.

 

[AV1611VET]

Are you serious with this ad hoc nonsense answer?

Like I said, ad hoc nonsense.

You have a thousand different flood stories from a thousand different sources, but the one true Source is 'ad hoc nonsense'?

Interesting.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

You have a thousand different flood stories from a thousand different sources, but the one true Source is 'ad hoc nonsense'?

Interesting.

There is an Australian aboriginal belief that the writhing of a giant snake pushed up the earth, forming the mountains. Not bad considering that some believe that the fall of Satan (that ole' snake) caused the destructive upheaval of the earth's surface.

 

[leftrightleftrightleft]

The Flood story is a myth. A myth is a story that is grounded in some sort of truth but has been exaggerated and changed with time based on multiple oral re-tellings.

There is no reason to believe the Flood story is true. It doesn't even have to affect your faith, God's legitimacy, Jesus' legitimacy or the Bible's legitimacy. So why try so hard to make it true when the vast majority of evidence points to the contrary. The ONLY piece of legitimate evidence that anyone has stating the Flood is true is a collection of ancient manuscripts.

Is there ANY non-Biblical evidence to support the flood?

1) Seashells in Kansas.

I'm a geophysicist and if anyone took the time to look into plate tectonics, uniformitarianism, sedimentation or radiometric dating I feel like its incredibly IMPROBABLE that a catastrophic flood brought sea shells to Kansas and not the host of other processes in operation. I just wrote a massive paragraph which could be called Geology 101, but if anyone is interested just PM me rather than me boring you with a long post here.

2) The processes in operation today are different than they were in the past.

This argument throws science out the window. Science is based on the fact that the physical laws in existence have been constant. (For example, the gravitational constant of 6.67*10^-11 was not, at one time, smaller or larger). It uses this assumption to extrapolate data into the past and future.

Granted, this is quite a large assumption to make, but if you don't make this assumption then it devolves into Last Thursdayism. Also, we make this assumption everyday: you assume that when you wake up tomorrow the gravitational constant will not be larger than it was when you went to bed. If, however, you wake up tomorrow and find that you weigh more, the moon is closer to the earth, the earth is closer to the Sun and several satellites delicately placed in near-earth orbit have fallen into the Earth, then perhaps we need to re-evaluate science's assumptions

Okay, so AV and dad I have a question:

If you see something, do you respond to it? For example, if you see a car coming towards you, do you get out of the way?

I'm assuming you would. This is because you have a HYPOTHESIS that says that you would be seriously injured or killed if you didn't get out of the way and this HYPOTHESIS has been validated based on EVIDENCE you have gathered about what happens to people that get in the way of a moving vehicle (based off the news, stories, movies, maybe personal experience? . Therefore, you see it as PROBABLE that, if you were to not move, your HYPOTHESIS would be validated and you would be seriously injured or killed.

This is the scientific method. And you, me and virtually everyone applies it daily. If you don't apply it, you'll probably die which is kind of ironic because it fits with natural selection

Also, one of your big arguments is that you found shells in Kansas. I thought the flood wiped out all living creatures...but there obviously were a lot of shells around. In fact, any water dwelling creature did just fine. So what does God have against land creatures? Or is he in cahoots with the sharks and dolphins? And if he just wanted to punish humans for being evil why didn't he just give us H1N1 a few thousand years before we had the medical advancements to stave it off? That way he didn't have to show favortism for the sharks versus the lions.

 

[driewerf]

Hey man, I don't believe in any gods. From the way I see it, the universe is indifferent to our existence. In light of this, it makes perfect sense why there is disease - because we are fighting with other organisms for survival. It's just a fact of life. It's why I'm devoting my life to medical science - so I can fight disease.

You, on the other hand, have to resort to claiming that disease is God's judgment, which makes him frankly rather cruel and not very loving.

Also, if I was a scientist or physician fighting infectious disease and God is truly the one who unleashed it, wouldn't I be opposing the will of God?

And; as the medical science is getting better -partly thanks to you and the person in my sig- just as is our understanding of hygiene, god is losing the battle.

 

[driewerf]

I don't expect you to understand, but for the sake of the lurkers, here's the answer:

Had God not made Adam the federal head of the human race, then every time a person sins, Jesus would have to come back to earth and die for that particular sin.

Note this passage:

Romans 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Even though YOU didn't eat of the forbidden fruit, Adam 'did it for you' -- in a manner of speaking.

If you think this is just, then the 9/11-attacks were just, and the bombings of the railway stations in Madrid were. The people who died hadn't done anything, but their respective governements have done a lot "for them".

 

[driewerf]

That 200 above sure looks like an estimated number to me even if you did run out of fingers. Maybe you could use your toes. What do you do have to do to count to 21?

use his nose?
use other body parts?

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

I know that most of these are myths. You might have us on how the world got repopulated with only a woman and a dog surviving but that is not what we believe. All I was pointing out is there seems to be pretty strong flood stories of some sort passed on through generations of various peoples.

The point is that they are all myths, including the collection of myths that arose in Sumeria and were borrowed by the Babylonians and eventually ended up in Hebrew orgin mythology. Myths are often stories used to explain things people can't understand and/or to teach moral lessons. The flood of Noah is a classic example. Here is another from the Pacific Northwest.

Once a big flood came. People made ropes of twisted cedar limbs and used them to fasten their canoes to mountains. The flood covered the Olympic Mountains. Some of the ropes broke, and the canoes drifted to the country of the Flatheads. That is why the Skokomish and the Flatheads speak the same language.

Here the myth is used to explain why two different tribes speak the same language.

As I pointed out before this huge collection of widely varying flood myths is not evidence for a single world wide flood a few thousand years ago but evidence against it. People all over the world have had their own special myths. In many of the myths the people are saved on mountains or by other means and many bear little resemblance to the Sumerian/Babylonian/Hebrew myth that ended up retold in Genesis. One would not expect this collect of highly variable myths if we were all descended from a single family that survived global flood a few thousand years ago. Of course there are many other things one would not expect, such as the genetic diversity in the human race, the even greater genetic diversity in many animal, species, the biogeographic distribution of animals and plants and many other observations of science that are totally inconsistent with a young earth and global flood. We have discussed a few of them on this board in the past.

http://www.christianforums.com/t95378/

 

[Frumious Bandersnatch]

You have a thousand different flood stories from a thousand different sources, but the one true Source is 'ad hoc nonsense'?

Interesting.

Though the Sumerian myth that eventually inspired the Hebrew myth may well have been based on a real large local flood there is no "One true source" of all these myths. It is your claim that the hundreds of different stories around the world arose by inspiration of Satan that is ad hoc nonsense and has no place on a forum on Physical & Life Science. I recommend that you take your special fantasies to an Apologetics forum where they belong.

 

[Delphiki]

They're baloney though -- cheap imitations of what really happened.

We call that diabolical plagiarism.

Even the ones that predate the bible?

 

[rockaction]

Even the ones that predate the bible?

But nothing predates the KJV! Before God said "let there be light" he personally penned the KJV. Apparently everybody in Sumeria, Babylon, Greece, India, China, Australia, and Polynesia simply copied the KJV when they wanted to write their flood story. I don't know how it happened that they could understand English before it was invented, so I guess we'll have to say "Goddidit".

 

[dad]

There is no reason to believe the Flood story is true. It doesn't even have to affect your faith, God's legitimacy, Jesus' legitimacy or the Bible's legitimacy.

I disagree, His word is on the line.

2) The processes in operation today are different than they were in the past.

This argument throws science out the window. Science is based on the fact that the physical laws in existence have been constant. (For example, the gravitational constant of 6.67*10^-11 was not, at one time, smaller or larger). It uses this assumption to extrapolate data into the past and future.

Granted, this is quite a large assumption to make, but if you don't make this assumption then it devolves into Last Thursdayism.

Not in any way is that true. Science has been here assuming stuff for only so long, and last century, or year or week is not an issue for any sane mind.

Okay, so AV and dad I have a question:

If you see something, do you respond to it? For example, if you see a car coming towards you, do you get out of the way?

Yes. And if I saw heaven coming, I would expect a different world than the one we now have. Christians do see heaven coming. Give unto the physical only, what is physical, give unto God what is spiritual, as well as the physical.

 

[ug333]

Not in any way is that true. Science has been here assuming stuff for only so long, and last century, or year or week is not an issue for any sane mind.

Why is the last century not an issue, but 6000 is? Have you been alive for 100 years?

 

[dad]

Why is the last century not an issue, but 6000 is? Have you been alive for 100 years?

We have good records.

 

[ug333]

We have good records.

Agreed, and we have good records of 6000 years ago in the in the earth. Guess what, no world wide flood.

Written word is not the only record kept.

 

[AV1611VET]

Agreed, and we have good records of 6000 years ago in the in the earth. Guess what, no world wide flood.

Guess what? those same 'good' records report a flat earth and geocentrism, don't they?

In addition, who would have reported a world-wide flood, if everyone drowned?

(You guys slay me.)