How would you prove the Universe is old?

[Hespera]

I suppose that is one way to look at it. Certainly he is bound by his nature in that he can't sin. He can't be evil.

must have been someone else then who is supposed to have sent an angel to kill all the first born sons of egypt.

 

[BananaSlug]

I have a question for Christian evolutionists:

Death is involved with evolution, right? Of course animals die in the million/billion whatever years that evolution requires. But why would God proclaim a world filled with death as very good? And what then would The Fall do more, because sin and death go hand-in-hand?

~LaserWraith

You forget that the only reason that A&E would live forever was because they were eating of the Tree of Life. Also, if they did not know what death was, wouldn't God telling them "you will surely die" be kind of pointless?

 

[Nathan Poe]

some Christians, not all Christians. I learn of God many times from things other than the Bible, though I do believe that if it's contradictory to the bible it is not true.

Some Christians doing this are still way too many, IMO.

Cannot, it is outside His Holy nature.

Interesting how one puts arbitrary limits on the allegedly all-powerful -- One moment we're talking about how God's nature is beyond our comprehension, the next we're dictating what He can and cannot do.

Hell.

And since when has hell been part of the equation?

that is your right. Have you?

Yes and yes.

God brought me to Himself, but He did use people to help me along, though ultimately, I give Him the credit and am thankful for the people who were a part of His drawing me to Himself.

It's sad that too many (and again, "some" is too many) such Christians would be the first to give themselves the credit.

I wasnt' implying that it was. It is His gift, though I can be a 'messanger'.

If and only if He wills it so.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I suppose that is one way to look at it. Certainly he is bound by his nature in that he can't sin. He can't be evil.

But He can cause it to happen.

 

[LaserWraith]

You forget that the only reason that A&E would live forever was because they were eating of the Tree of Life. Also, if they did not know what death was, wouldn't God telling them "you will surely die" be kind of pointless?

Animals weren't eating The Tree of Life...there was one tree and animals were in more than one place.

 

[CoderHead]

your bike is headed to the Left and jpcdotal's to the Right...

does this signify something?

Hmmm, it might. He and I seem to always be headed in different directions. Of course it might just be that his bike is British, and they drive on the wrong side of the road...

I suppose that is one way to look at it. Certainly he is bound by his nature in that he can't sin. He can't be evil.

So, if there are things He cannot do, then He is not omnipotent. If He is not omnipotent, then He defies the definition of "God." So why worship Him?

If He is omnipotent then He can, by choice, be evil. I believe there are specific examples in the Bible where God exhibited evil behavior. By "evil," I mean deliberately deceiving or exacting punishment or murder on those who either didn't know any better or didn't deserve it. If He can and does act evil, then why worship Him? Out of fear?

 

[LaserWraith]

Is there any reason they should have been immortal? Surely death is only really an issue for sentients with the ability to choose their way into hell.

If we "evolved" up to the point where humans finally came (A&E), don't you think some animals died? You know, natural causes (getting old), sickness, being killed, etc.

Darwin observed natural selection on those Galapagos islands, and he counted that as evidence for evolution (or so I learned...).

Well, there's the opportunity to sin, and there's condemning all humanity for one person's choice during one opportunity for sin, but let's not split hairs.

I bet I would have done it too...we are all sinful, so I believe we would each succumb to Satan's "tricks" if we didn't have God.

Yup.

And guess what, they're life.

Yes, plants were eaten, and as Dr. Hugh Ross notes, they “suffered” in this way, yet they clearly lack a brain to interpret this as pain. Scripture itself makes an important distinction between plants and animals at this point. In Genesis 1, we see a general Hebrew term—nephesh. This word refers to living creatures such as man and animals. The word doesn’t apply to plants, but it does apply to vertebrates. The Bible clearly distinguishes between animals that have a nephesh and the plants and insects which do not. So the Bible would not classify plants as living creatures in the same way as those that have blood and flesh.

What a crazy thing to not allow links or images until you have 50 posts.

 

[CoderHead]

I bet I would have done it too...we are all sinful, so I believe we would each succumb to Satan's "tricks" if we didn't have God.

Would you have done it if God hadn't given Satan free roam in the supposedly "perfect" paradise? I doubt it.

God intentionally kept Adam and Eve ignorant of Satan's presence (and his nature) and they fell for a trick when they didn't know any better. If you were in a magical paradise and you were walking hand-in-hand with a supernatural deity, wouldn't a talking serpent just seem like another wonderful, magical component of the same? The whole thing stinks of a setup.

 

[LaserWraith]

Hmmm, it might. He and I seem to always be headed in different directions. Of course it might just be that his bike is British, and they drive on the wrong side of the road...


So, if there are things He cannot do, then He is not omnipotent. If He is not omnipotent, then He defies the definition of "God." So why worship Him?

If He is omnipotent then He can, by choice, be evil. I believe there are specific examples in the Bible where God exhibited evil behavior. By "evil," I mean deliberately deceiving or exacting punishment or murder on those who either didn't know any better or didn't deserve it. If He can and does act evil, then why worship Him? Out of fear?

Maybe he won't do it, instead of can't.

But who are we, sinful creations, to understand the Creator?

 

[AV1611VET]

So the Bible would not classify plants as living creatures in the same way as those that have blood and flesh.

Mans' efforts to classify and codify the universe are, at best*, weak, when compared to God's.

* At best.

 

[LaserWraith]

Would you have done it if God hadn't given Satan free roam in the supposedly "perfect" paradise? I doubt it.

God intentionally kept Adam and Eve ignorant of Satan's presence (and his nature) and they fell for a trick when they didn't know any better. If you were in a magical paradise and you were walking hand-in-hand with a supernatural deity, wouldn't a talking serpent just seem like another wonderful, magical component of the same? The whole thing stinks of a setup.

He may have not told them about Satan (we never know what went on when they walked with God), but he warned them not to eat of that tree. They should have known something was "fishy" when this snake told them to eat something God said not to...

If God wanted us to be robots, He could have kept all chance of sin away. But instead, He gave us a free will.

Besides, how can you know what is good if you don't know what is evil?

 

[Cabal]

If we "evolved" up to the point where humans finally came (A&E), don't you think some animals died? You know, natural causes (getting old), sickness, being killed, etc.

Darwin observed natural selection on those Galapagos islands, and he counted that as evidence for evolution (or so I learned...).

Cooperative efforts between members of a species can still undergo selective effects, in fact the very fact we see them today shows that they are a good way of surviving in multiple environmental niches.

Pre-fall, I suspect it would have been a lot easier to obtain resources without killing, animals would probably have just moved on, or maybe plant matter grew at a different rate. All of this is speculative with respect to a literalist reading, though.

But you're probably asking the wrong guy for this, I'm not a believer in a literal Adam, Eve, garden, talking snake, death fruit, etc. Things were clearly supernaturally different, so why bother to insert evolution into the mix?

I bet I would have done it too...we are all sinful, so I believe we would each succumb to Satan's "tricks" if we didn't have God.

Sure, my original point was, was this alleged Paradise really that? I would say, no.

What a crazy thing to not allow links or images until you have 50 posts.

Yeah....that link is a cop-out, to be honest. Plant matter still undergoes death and decay, still undergoes what one would typically assign the effects of the Fall to (unless there's been another convenient redefinition I didn't know about).

 

[Cabal]

He may have not told them about Satan (we never know what went on when they walked with God), but he warned them not to eat of that tree. They should have known something was "fishy" when this snake told them to eat something God said not to...

If God wanted us to be robots, He could have kept all chance of sin away. But instead, He gave us a free will.

Besides, how can you know what is good if you don't know what is evil?

Right, exactly, how were they supposed to understand the don't-eat-that-fruit scenario? They had literally no way of understanding the outcome or why - it wasn't a fair choice.

 

[AV1611VET]

He may have not told them about Satan (we never know what went on when they walked with God), but he warned them not to eat of that tree.

Indeed.

Which of the six one-syllable words did they not understand: "thou shalt not eat of it"?

 

[CoderHead]

He may have not told them about Satan (we never know what went on when they walked with God), but he warned them not to eat of that tree. They should have known something was "fishy" when this snake told them to eat something God said not to...

Dude, it was a talking snake! Why would two naive, spontaneously-created people have reason to believe that anyone but God could create a talking snake? That's messed up.

If God wanted us to be robots, He could have kept all chance of sin away. But instead, He gave us a free will.

Absolutely untrue! Are you actually suggesting that if He hadn't allowed Satan in the garden that we would be nothing but robots? Bull. Huge, stinking load of bull. Why was God content to walk in the garden with Adam and Eve before they fell? They had free will the whole time and I daresay they were perfectly content.

Besides, how can you know what is good if you don't know what is evil?

My point exactly. How in the world could Adam and Eve identify with "you shall surely die" or "[talking snake]: but that's not what God actually meant; you can eat it, it's OK?" They were clueless and God should have known better than to purposely place the object of man's eventual downfall right smack in the middle of man's home. You've got to be kidding me, that's a textbook setup.

 

[LaserWraith]

Right, exactly, how were they supposed to understand the don't-eat-that-fruit scenario? They had literally no way of understanding the outcome or why - it wasn't a fair choice.

If God said don't eat it, and a snake said to eat it, I would think that is a good enough command. They may have not understood what would happen or why, but often faith in God leads without are knowing until we look back on it.

 

[Cabal]

If God said don't eat it, and a snake said to eat it, I would think that is a good enough command. They may have not understood what would happen or why, but often faith in God leads without are knowing until we look back on it.

Given the consequences, a little more info would probably have been a good idea.

This, however, does nothing to change the fact that it was an arbitrary, unfair and disproportionate scenario they were placed in, not to mention incredibly simplistic.

Far better to have it be an analogy that falls a bit short of the mark in its description than face the sort of god literalism spews out.

 

[AV1611VET]

If God said don't eat it, and a snake said to eat it, I would think that is a good enough command. They may have not understood what would happen or why, but often faith in God leads without are knowing until we look back on it.

I'm sure they knew what would happen if they ate it --- else why would the serpent have gone out of his way to say they wouldn't die?

Note that when Eve looked at the fruit from a scientific perspective (Genesis 3:6a And when the woman saw...), and not a spiritual perspective, she ended up sinning.

 

[Cabal]

I'm sure they knew what would happen if they ate it --- else why would the serpent have gone out of his way to say they wouldn't die?

Note that when Eve looked at the fruit from a scientific perspective (Genesis 3:6a And when the woman saw...), and not a spiritual perspective, she ended up sinning.

Merely looking at stuff is scientific now?

What's the spiritual way of looking at things then, eyes shut and fingers in your ears? I do wonder...

 

[LaserWraith]

Dude, it was a talking snake! Why would two naive, spontaneously-created people have reason to believe that anyone but God could create a talking snake? That's messed up.

God may have created the snake, and did, but that doesn't mean it was representing God, and that its suggestions/commands were to be followed.

That murder in jail was created by God, but that doesn't mean he is to be followed when he tells another to kill.

When God, who is their creator, and a talking snake/Satan, who is created, give contradictory orders which shall we follow?

They may have not known Satan was created by God, but they at least knew God created them.

Absolutely untrue! Are you actually suggesting that if He hadn't allowed Satan in the garden that we would be nothing but robots? Bull. Huge, stinking load of bull. Why was God content to walk in the garden with Adam and Eve before they fell? They had free will the whole time and I daresay they were perfectly content.

Death/sin is our enemy, and God's. If we were kept from seeing "the other side," I think we were something like "robots."

They had free-will before the Fall, and God was with them because they had not sinned yet.

My point exactly. How in the world could Adam and Eve identify with "you shall surely die" or "[talking snake]: but that's not what God actually meant; you can eat it, it's OK?" They were clueless and God should have known better than to purposely place the object of man's eventual downfall right smack in the middle of man's home. You've got to be kidding me, that's a textbook setup.

God, their creator, specifically told them don't eat it. God wouldn't then go and say, "Oh, I guess you can eat it."