How would you prove the Universe is old?

[CoderHead]

Something like that.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Don't worry, your time is short. Well, actually, you should worry.......your time is short.

Have you heard of Jonah? REPENT! REPENT! REPENT!!!

Well reasoned, thorough and chalk full of "win"!

 

[BananaSlug]

Ursie is a very kind and loving person. She honestly cares for us, that is why she is doing what she is doing. I may think she is misguided, but I know she really cares.

 

[Sanguis]

(what is an "ultimate dilemma" btw?)

Hawaiian or Pepperoni?

 

[Tinker Grey]

Yes, they do, for what kind of monster would I be if I never said a word and you perished without any knowledge of your ultimate dilemma.

Well, Jonah was a bit of a monster--he was angry that God didn't kill the Ninevites.

Will you, too, be angry with God if he fails to kill us?

 

[thaumaturgy]

Hawaiian or Pepperoni?

Oh c'mon, that's not a dilemma...pepperoni. Only a heretic would order hawaiian.

I know you aren't evil, just lost and I hope you ultimately see the error of your ways or you are going to wind up with an evil pizza. And I would be remiss for not steering you clear of this bad decision.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Ursie is a very kind and loving person. She honestly cares for us, that is why she is doing what she is doing. I may think she is misguided, but I know she really cares.

You know, in reality I have no doubt that people of any religious persuasion at that level do literally fear for our immortal souls. Have to admit if I believed in a soul I too would be equally concerned for all around me.

Frankly that is one of the reasons I had to leave religion. I still to this day struggle to get that meme out of my head. The fear of eternal punishment based on a failure to get something right in a limited physical life of only about 80 years max.

And to be told all along that it is done by a God who loves us, really honestly loves us.

I actually respect people for wanting to "do the right thing" as they understand it. Unfortunately for people like me this particular "right thing" is corrosive.

But she and her co-religionists are, indeed, trying to the best they possibly can.

I still wonder, however, why is it a just and loving God would allow his message out through stidence and fear, from quarters that are often antithetical to science or the epistemologies many of us value?

Who is doing more to save us? God, the all-loving omnipotent being, or his all-too-human followers who fear God's wrath against us will be more than anyone could bear to watch? What does that say about God?

 

[BananaSlug]

I agree. I find it extremely disheartening that many people with strong religious convictions lock out any information that they think is dangerous to their faith. If your faith was strong enough, the fact we evolved shouldn't affect them in the slightest. They don't even want to learn about evolution (except what the "professional" creationists tell them).

 

[CoderHead]

Hawaiian or Pepperoni?

No dilemma here. Pineapple does not belong on pizza.

 

[thaumaturgy]

No dilemma here. Pineapple does not belong on pizza.

ULTIMATE TRUTH! Peace be with you, brother in Truth.

 

[Ursie]

You know, in reality I have no doubt that people of any religious persuasion at that level do literally fear for our immortal souls. Have to admit if I believed in a soul I too would be equally concerned for all around me.

Frankly that is one of the reasons I had to leave religion. I still to this day struggle to get that meme out of my head. The fear of eternal punishment based on a failure to get something right in a limited physical life of only about 80 years max.

And to be told all along that it is done by a God who loves us, really honestly loves us.

I actually respect people for wanting to "do the right thing" as they understand it. Unfortunately for people like me this particular "right thing" is corrosive.

But she and her co-religionists are, indeed, trying to the best they possibly can.

I still wonder, however, why is it a just and loving God would allow his message out through stidence and fear, from quarters that are often antithetical to science or the epistemologies many of us value?

Who is doing more to save us? God, the all-loving omnipotent being, or his all-too-human followers who fear God's wrath against us will be more than anyone could bear to watch? What does that say about God?

Thanks Thaumatergy. You're right, we truly do care, though like you, we do get frustrated at times and show it.

I don't see eternal punishment so much in light of the wrath of God, though that is certainly a factor, but as a result of the Holiness of God. God is Holy, something we can't even begin to relate to. He's also just, loving, compassionate, merciful, jealous, wrathful. It's hard for me to wrap my head around all of that and how it can work together. But He is God and there is no one like Him, no one comparable to Him. I know that I CAN'T understand Him, no matter how hard I try. He wouldn't be much of a god if I could, would he.

He cannot allow sinful man into His presence (in heaven or here on earth). But because He does love the people He's created, He provided a way for us to be saved. He showed His love by sending Jesus, His Son who was perfect, to pay the price of sin for those who accept it. He was the only one who could because he is the only one who didn't deserve eternal condemnation because of sin. And he willingly offered his life and willingly suffered the wrath of God so that you and I could be saved from the just punishment for sin. (for those who appreciate proof, read 'The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel)

And no, I am not, like Jonah, going to be sad if God 'let's you in' to heaven. I pray that He will make Himself known to you and cause you to want to turn to Him. I truly do. I once had the same attitude as many of you. I thought Christians were a bunch of hypocritical, idiotic, bible-thumping jerks. I mocked them and ridiculed them in every way I could. I am glad some of them continued to pray for me and speak to me of God's love for me. It must have been very difficult for them to do when I acted like such a horse's backside.

So, whether we agree on things or not, I hope you will know that I am indeed sincerely offering what I believe as a gift to you.

 

[Nathan Poe]

I don't see eternal punishment so much in light of the wrath of God, though that is certainly a factor, but as a result of the Holiness of God. God is Holy, something we can't even begin to relate to. He's also just, loving, compassionate, merciful, jealous, wrathful. It's hard for me to wrap my head around all of that and how it can work together. But He is God and there is no one like Him, no one comparable to Him. I know that I CAN'T understand Him, no matter how hard I try. He wouldn't be much of a god if I could, would he.

The problem is that too many Christians think they do have God all figured out -- worse, they think that all they need to know about Him is in the Bible.

He cannot allow sinful man into His presence (in heaven or here on earth).

Cannot or will not? The difference tells a lot about how you view God.

But because He does love the people He's created, He provided a way for us to be saved.

Which brings up the question: saved from who/what?

He showed His love by sending Jesus, His Son who was perfect, to pay the price of sin for those who accept it. He was the only one who could because he is the only one who didn't deserve eternal condemnation because of sin. And he willingly offered his life and willingly suffered the wrath of God so that you and I could be saved from the just punishment for sin. (for those who appreciate proof, read 'The Case for Christ by Lee Strobel)

Suppose we've read it and were unimpressed?

And no, I am not, like Jonah, going to be sad if God 'let's you in' to heaven. I pray that He will make Himself known to you and cause you to want to turn to Him. I truly do. I once had the same attitude as many of you. I thought Christians were a bunch of hypocritical, idiotic, bible-thumping jerks.

Well that's something -- most of them aren't idiotic.

I mocked them and ridiculed them in every way I could. I am glad some of them continued to pray for me and speak to me of God's love for me. It must have been very difficult for them to do when I acted like such a horse's backside.

Did their actions bring you to God?

So, whether we agree on things or not, I hope you will know that I am indeed sincerely offering what I believe as a gift to you.

Except that the gift is not yours to give.

 

[Hespera]

Something like that.

your bike is headed to the Left and jpcdotal's to the Right...

does this signify something?

 

[LaserWraith]

I have a question for Christian evolutionists:

Death is involved with evolution, right? Of course animals die in the million/billion whatever years that evolution requires. But why would God proclaim a world filled with death as very good? And what then would The Fall do more, because sin and death go hand-in-hand?

~LaserWraith

 

[Cabal]

I have a question for Christian evolutionists:

Death is involved with evolution, right? Of course animals die in the million/billion whatever years that evolution requires. But why would God proclaim a world filled with death as very good? And what then would The Fall do more, because sin and death go hand-in-hand?

~LaserWraith

Death is not necessarily required for evolution. Survival till reproduction is the key step. The new genetics accumulate in new generations, nothing is triggered by the previous one dying. In a tight space, there may be competition for resources, but this still does not predicate death as a prerequisite for anything to evolve.

"Very good" also tends to get translated as "perfect" - I would argue that any kind of alleged Paradise which even has the remotest possibility of evil coming into it (which it did, via a fruit) is in no way deserving of being called Paradise.

You've also got to wonder exactly was what being eaten in the Garden pre-Fall.

 

[Ursie]

The problem is that too many Christians think they do have God all figured out -- worse, they think that all they need to know about Him is in the Bible.

some Christians, not all Christians. I learn of God many times from things other than the Bible, though I do believe that if it's contradictory to the bible it is not true.

Cannot or will not? The difference tells a lot about how you view God.

Cannot, it is outside His Holy nature.

Which brings up the question: saved from who/what?

Hell.

Suppose we've read it and were unimpressed?

that is your right. Have you?

Did their actions bring you to God?

God brought me to Himself, but He did use people to help me along, though ultimately, I give Him the credit and am thankful for the people who were a part of His drawing me to Himself.

Except that the gift is not yours to give.

I wasnt' implying that it was. It is His gift, though I can be a 'messanger'.

 

[Wedjat]

Cannot, it is outside His Holy nature.

So is God bound by his nature? In a sense, he is limited, not omnipotent.

 

[LaserWraith]

Death is not necessarily required for evolution. Survival till reproduction is the key step. The new genetics accumulate in new generations, nothing is triggered by the previous one dying. In a tight space, there may be competition for resources, but this still does not predicate death as a prerequisite for anything to evolve.

My point wasn't (or wasn't supposed to be) that evolution relied on death.

There is pre-Fall-death with evolution. Or were all the life-forms immortal? ....
Wasn't it a core part of evolution about survival of the fittest? If not, how would the "good" parts be kept and the "bad" not?

"Very good" also tends to get translated as "perfect" - I would argue that any kind of alleged Paradise which even has the remotest possibility of evil coming into it (which it did, via a fruit) is in no way deserving of being called Paradise.

I see your point. But God wouldn't force us to obey Him. There is always an opportunity for sin.

You've also got to wonder exactly was what being eaten in the Garden pre-Fall.

Plants.

 

[Ursie]

So is God bound by his nature? In a sense, he is limited, not omnipotent.

I suppose that is one way to look at it. Certainly he is bound by his nature in that he can't sin. He can't be evil.

 

[Cabal]

My point wasn't (or wasn't supposed to be) that evolution relied on death.

There is pre-Fall-death with evolution. Or were all the life-forms immortal? ....
Wasn't it a core part of evolution about survival of the fittest? If not, how would the "good" parts be kept and the "bad" not?

Is there any reason they should have been immortal? Surely death is only really an issue for sentients with the ability to choose their way into hell.

Survival of the fittest is a part of evolution, yes. But it's not the extent of it, a lot of behaviour is cooperative rather than competitive. Perhaps one could argue that pre-fall only cooperative behaviours were present rather than competitive, although I suspect there wouldn't be changing selective pressures in the garden of Eden either pre-Fall.

I see your point. But God wouldn't force us to obey Him. There is always an opportunity for sin.

Well, there's the opportunity to sin, and there's condemning all humanity for one person's choice during one opportunity for sin, but let's not split hairs.

Plants.

Yup.

And guess what, they're life.