How would you prove the Universe is old?

[Split Rock]

So God purposefully created a sinful race?

No, no, silly. He created a Perfect Race, who fell almost immediately into Sin because they had the Free Will to do so. Kinda like Donald Rumsfield when he said that "being free means you are free to do bad things."

 

[MoonLancer]

AV, why could god not create a field of energy that would let angels pass but not humans? is god incapable of doing so or does he just simply not care what happens.

He might has well given teenage boys a loaded gun. See in the real world things like that have consequences and not just for the boys.

 

[CoderHead]

You want something to "Wow. Seriously."?

Wow. Seriously. this:

In my opinion? It was meant as food for the angels - not us.

Wow. Seriously??

OK, in your opinion, angels live on their homes - the stars. So why, for the love of Pete, would God set a tree intended as food for the angels (who live on the stars, remember) in the middle of a garden on Earth inhabited by humans?

AV, why did you purposely point me to an example of you being inane?

 

[Cabal]

Yeah, he can keep a massive, balsa wood ark afloat, filled with 2 of every "kind" of animal, but he can't keep two people away from a tree - that has no reason for being there in the first place.

I know what you mean, and I've raised this before.

God doing something good but physically unfeasible gets a "well, he's God!" answer, but some of the more heinous-seeming acts get shrugs and a "well, what else could he have done?"....

....like you can somehow tie the hands of someone that can literally do ANYTHING. Not to mention inconsistent much?

 

[AV1611VET]

For someone with that much power, keeping two billion people away from the tree wouldn't be any harder than keeping two people away from the tree, or any easier than keeping 200bn people away.

I don't have time to address this right now, but try (emphasis on try) to understand how making Adam (not any of his offspring) the federal head of a sinful human race was the best way to go.

And I'll address this later.

Had God have kept the tree from Adam and Eve's grasp, then later, when they had children, and one of them eventually reached the tree and ate of the fruit, I contend that we would have two races of people living today: a sinless race and a sinful race.

The sinless race would be the offspring of Adam, and the sinful race would too, except they would be an offshoot of the one who ate of the forbidden fruit.

In other words, the fruit of that tree would have split the human race in two.

But by allowing the very first man, Adam, to fall into sin, this made Adam the federal head of the entire human race, and Jesus would only have to die once on the cross for all of mankind.

 

[laconicstudent]

"If you can't be bothered to read it, then don't ask questions about things that are answered in the link."

Uh, this is a 'Christian' site! Hello? What are Atheists, Buddhists, Deists, etc., doing on a Christian site in the first place?[/quote]

What does that have to do with your unwillingness to click on a hyperlink?

If you want to live in an Ivory tower, you should go elsewhere.

No, I did not bother to read the link, because it was not from some one who even shares the same religion as me

Excuse me? Nice insult. Check my faith icon.

; so, why would I bother reading the link? I am more than a little baffled as to why all of you non-Christians are on a CHRISTIAN site in the first place! Does any one else find this strange?

No, it just means the rest of us enjoy talking.

<staff edit>



Now, lets see: Wiley InterScience :: Session Cookies

Unfortunately, it would appear that not only the world, but organized culture, is older then 6,000 years.

I quoted it last time, but apparently you missed that too. I'll make the salient points bigger so you won't miss them.

Abstract
A pedological investigation at Göbekli Tepe, a Pre-Pottery Neolithic (PPN) site in the northern Fertile Crescent (southeastern Turkey), was undertaken to gain a better understanding of its chronology and paleoenvironments. A catena at the southern slope of the central mound suggests that complex pedosedimentary processes took place at the surface of the mound after the abandonment of the site. Soil formation resulted in a markedly dark Ah horizon and a Bk horizon with secondary carbonate accumulations; both hold promise as sources of chronological and paleoecological information. Three fossil Ah horizons from the PPN period were found within the fill. One of them provided a 14C age of 8880 ± 60 yr B.P. (on humic acids) that may approximate the time of abandonment. 14C dating of the oldest microlamina of pedogenic carbonate gave two new dates: 7450 ± 80 yr B.P. for a PPNB context and 6405 ± 70 yr B.P. for a post-PPNB context. These dates have to be considered as well-estimated minimum ages of the contexts.
​

 

[Meshach]

No, no, silly. He created a Perfect Race, who fell almost immediately into Sin because they had the Free Will to do so. Kinda like Donald Rumsfield when he said that "being free means you are free to do bad things."

1 Corinthians 10:23http://bible.cc/1_corinthians/10-24.htm
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

 

[CoderHead]

But by allowing the very first man, Adam, to fall into sin, this made Adam the federal head of the entire human race, and Jesus would only have to die once on the cross for all of mankind.

Or, as has been pointed out, God could have maximized the benefit for all eternity by not creating the tree in the first place. You still haven't addressed my post.

And Jesus didn't have to die for anyone. God made that rule for Himself for reasons we'd never be able to understand. And He enforced it on Himself by creating the tree and placing it in man's reach.

No, I did not bother to read the link, because it was not from some one who even shares the same religion as me; so, why would I bother reading the link?

That's a great way to never learn anything. Only read those things which agree with your view and you'll always be right. It must feel good to be you.

1 Corinthians 10:23
All things are lawful for me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but all things edify not.

Paul said that to early Christians about making pagan sacrifices and eating things previously considered "unclean." What does that have to do with God's reasons for creating a perfect race and/or mankind's free will?

 

[AV1611VET]

Or, as has been pointed out, God could have maximized the benefit for all eternity by not creating the tree in the first place.

Countering everything with "God didn't have to do it that way" isn't an effective counter.

 

[CoderHead]

Countering everything with "God didn't have to do it that way" isn't an effective counter.

Countering everything with "God Did It" isn't an effective argument either. Do you or do you not believe that God can do - literally - anything?

Also, please answer my question:

OK, in your opinion, angels live on their homes - the stars. So why, for the love of Pete, would God set a tree intended as food for the angels (who live on the stars, remember) in the middle of a garden on Earth inhabited by humans?

 

[Lemmiwinks]

The fact that some 'Christian' churches have crossed over to ignore the biblical account of creation is something I cannot understand. If you don't believe in the very foundation of the bible, why do you believe anything in it at all? If creation isn't true, then neither is anything else in the Scriptures, or at least the teachers therein are not fully trustworthy. Christianity means to follow Christ, not to pick and choose what he said that you'll believe, though that is what many people who believe themselves to be Christians today do.

Jesus said to believe in him and be saved. he didn't say to believe in a literal 6 day creation and be saved.

Picking and choosing is not a bad thing. I wish the muslims would pick and choose when reading the koran. It would be great if they could skip over the kill infidels part.

The bible is just one part of God's revelation, the created world is also his revelation. Since Genesis is poetry and not a scientific treatise, I think God wants us to use our brains and interpret his revelations accordingly.

 

[MoonLancer]

Countering everything with "God didn't have to do it that way" isn't an effective counter.

It points out that if a human can think of a way to do things better, when god can not or did not, then god fails as a perfect being.

 

[BananaSlug]

It points out that if a human can think of a way to do things better, when god can not or did not, then god fails as a perfect being.

Awesome.

 

[Cabal]

Countering everything with "God didn't have to do it that way" isn't an effective counter.

Then either stop claiming God is omnipotent or stop acting like an omnipotent being's hands are tied when the most basic objections are raised.

 

[laconicstudent]

I confess to some curiosity if whether Marky Marcus will be coming back soon to explain post #329 http://www.christianforums.com/t7419906-33/#post53650740

 

[Split Rock]

Hi, 'laconicstudent'! Yeah, I am back, and I will explain myself. Well, here it goes: 'I am a jerk!' There, that pretty much explains all you need to know about me! LOL Seriously, though, I have been quite rude and disrespectful to some of you on here.

Firstly, to you 'laconicstudent': I should have checked your faith icon before I went on that rant about you not even having the same religion!

To 'Sanguis': I was quite rude to you in my rant about 'I am not going to take lip from some Atheist', etc.; man, I am sorry about that! I never should have said that to you. You have as much right to your beliefs and opinions as we all do, and I did not respect that; I was quick to judge you, I was rude, and I was disrespectful to you; and I am sorry.

To 'CoderHead': I know you must think that I am a holier-than-thou, pompous jerk - and, you would be right! That is what I have been acting like lately. I need to learn to be more respectful toward others and their opinions.

Look, I do not think that I am better than any one else - I am a sinful, fallen man - I screw up, I make mistakes, I fall into sin, et cetera; I am certainly no better than any body else! The two of you who are Atheists probably already have a poor view of Christianity and Christians in general, and I am sure that my actions have probably only reinforced your negative views. I have not acted in a loving, Christ-like manner, as I should do as a man who claims to be a Christian. I have behaved like a jerk and I am sorry! I promise I will not behave in this manner again.

Here, here! Good for you. Let it not be said that creationists never apologize here.

Have some reps.

 

[thaumaturgy]

Countering everything with "God didn't have to do it that way" isn't an effective counter.

I take you are familiar with Leibniz "Best of all possible worlds" philosophy, correct?

Personally that seems little better than "God Did it" to me, but then I'm not in the business of justifying the seemingly irrational actions of a loving omnipotent being.

I think the single thing an all-loving omnipotent omnibenevolent being should do is "explain". Just explain.

He made the "game", he "set the rules" and he made us, the playing pieces, but he made it somewhat more "cruel" in that he endowed the playing pieces with an ability to understand at least some of the game; the parts that directly affect them.

The least He could do is explain the whole game to us. WHY must there be free will for us playing pieces if, without fully understanding everything with perfect clarity, we can make mistakes that will wind us up with eternal punishment?

If Frankenstein had not made his creature "alive" the unliving pieces and parts would never have known the pain of what was happening to it. In the case of God he allows us to know the pain quite well without fully understanding the "larger picture".

If it is a game we can not even begin to grasp, who forced God to make the game as it is?

 

[AV1611VET]

The least He could do is explain the whole game to us.

God gave us the Bible, Thaumaturgy, and as the saying goes, if we don't act on the parts we do understand, why should we be asking for the parts we don't understand?

That's like someone who won't acknowledge mathematics wanting to learn algebra.

 

[thaumaturgy]

God gave us the Bible, Thaumaturgy, and as the saying goes, if we don't act on the parts we do understand, why should we be asking for the parts we don't understand?

That's like someone who won't acknowledge mathematics wanting to learn algebra.

Good point. However, it doesn't appear to be enough. The textbook, singular as it is, sometimes seems to disagree with the other data available, and I can say, as an educator, that not all textbooks answer all questions. Sometimes you need multiple reinforcing lines of information.

The Bible is insufficient to the task.

IF, however, the All-Loving omnipotent God really wanted the information out there in the most crystal clear means available he surely could do it such that all would know.

Otherwise creationists and biblical literalists wouldn't have to resort ad nauseam to "God's ways are mysterious" or "God did this" as answers/justifications!

It seems to me in times of strife, when people question the pious as to why God allows horrors to occur, many times the answer is that we cannot know God's ultimate plan or his Ways.

But you are telling me the number of ministers who have said that very thing, the number of theologians who have mouthed those words were in error? That the message was plain as day in the pages of the Bible, yet the theologians who have dedicated their lives to studying said bible didn't catch the answers?

 

[AV1611VET]

The Bible is insufficient to the task.

The Bible is sufficient to do what It does:

14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned them;
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

You claimed you were saved at one point, but you didn't heed V14, did you?

Now you're wondering why you can't "see" clearly?

IF, however, the All-Loving omnipotent God really wanted the information out there in the most crystal clear means available he surely could do it such that all would know.

As I have pointed out before, the crux of the entire Bible is:

He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

19 one-syllable words that even a child can understand.

Otherwise creationists and biblical literalists wouldn't have to resort ad nauseam to "God's ways are mysterious" or "God did this" as answers/justifications!

What if a mathematician had that attitude about the Bible that scientists had?

Specifically:

• "I can't find the formula for solving a quadratic expression anywhere in the Bible!"
• "Show me FOIL in the Bible! Chapter and verse, please!"

That's just the way you guys sound.