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How would you have created the world?

If you had the power to create the world quickly, would you do it over billions of ye

  • Yes.

  • No.

  • Maybe.

  • Other.


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lucaspa

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Ark Guy said:
science show us that your statement is false....the link shows that the earth doesn't look old after all.

You did visit it?
Ark Guy, I think you are finally getting the hang of falsification. Good for you!

However, the problem is that long ago the idea that the earth is young was falsified. You haven't explained that data. AiG is simply still stuck on the idea of "supporting evidence" of the earth being young. They don't use your twist o the data, do they? They are trying to discredit some of the data showing the earth is not young. But as Karl pointed out, they screwed up.

Young earth has been falsified. Get used to it.
 
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Lucaspa,

I am going to make this quick. Darwin was an atheist, naturalist. All those made up stories about Darwin believing in god are merely the desire of some to make their belief in evolution compatible with theism. To Darwin there was no need for a god.

And that is possibly the last word you will hear from me, on this subject, in this thread. Because it is pointless to argue over this; I have stated the terms and definitions I use, and that is it.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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Karaite said:
Lucaspa,

I am going to make this quick. Darwin was an atheist, naturalist. All those made up stories about Darwin believing in god are merely the desire of some to make their belief in evolution compatible with theism. To Darwin there was no need for a god.

And that is possibly the last word you will hear from me, on this subject, in this thread. Because it is pointless to argue over this; I have stated the terms and definitions I use, and that is it.
When he went on the Beagle, he was a Christian. By his death he was an agnostic - he lost his belief in God over personal family issues, not science.
 
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lucaspa

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Karaite said:
Lucaspa,

I am going to make this quick. Darwin was an atheist, naturalist. All those made up stories about Darwin believing in god are merely the desire of some to make their belief in evolution compatible with theism. To Darwin there was no need for a god.
If Darwin was an atheist, please explain these quotes from Origin of the Species:

"There is grandeur in this view of life, with its several powers, having been originally breathed by the Creator into a few forms or into one; and that, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being evolved." C. Darwin, On the Origin of Species, pg 450.
Also: "To my mind it accords better with what we know of the laws impressed on matter by the Creator, that the production and extinction of the past and present inhabitants of the world should have been due to secondary causes, like those determining the birth and death of the individual." pg. 449.

Then again, look at the quotes he chose for the Fontispiece of Origin. Please explain to us how an atheist would pick these quotes:

"But with regard to the material world, we can at least go so far as this -- we can perceive that events are brought about not by insulated interpositions of Divine power, exerted in each particular case, but by the establishment of general laws" Whewell: Bridgewater Treatise.
"The only distinct meaning of the word 'natural' is stated, fixed, or settled; since what is natural as much requires and presupposes an intelligent agent to render it so, i.e., to effect it continually or at stated times, as what is supernatural or miraculous does to effect it for once." Butler: Analogy of Revealed Religion.
"To conclude, therefore, let no man out of a weak conceit of sobriety, or an ill-applied moderation, think or maintain, that a man can search too far or be too well studied in the book of God's word, or in the book of God's works; divinity or philosophy; but rather let men endeavour an endless progress or proficience in both." Bacon: Advancement of Learning

Finally, Darwin toward the end of his life wrote a private letter to his long-time friend and supporter Asa Gray. In it Darwin confessed that he had what he called "large swings" of faith, but that those swings "never went as far as atheism".

You've swallowed a myth put out by both atheists and creationists to serve their own purposes.

Because it is pointless to argue over this; I have stated the terms and definitions I use, and that is it.
So you don't care if you use wrong definitions? And you don't care what the evidence is against your definitions.

It looks to me like you want propaganda definitions so that you can try to scare people that Darwinism is atheism. You bill yourself as an "examiner" but apparently you dont' want to examine any evidence contrary to your opinion. Instead, your other characterization as a debator seems to be closer to the truth: you only care about debating points, not truth.

I hope I am wrong, but that is how it looks to me.
 
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Yes, it is a fairy tale invented by people like you, who only wish to "mold" religion with naturalistic views.

There is more than sufficient reason for me to not want to argue over such point. If you wish to use it against me, well be my guest--after all, that is as much as an argument that you will be able to produce, so I will let you enjoy it, if you can.

As you can see, this thread has gone badly off topic, or it has been touching on points that really only take away from the important aspects of the discussion. I don't have all the time in the world to be talking about minute things. I have to use my time wisely, and if you wish to use that against me, then go ahead and do so.
 
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lucaspa

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Karaite said:
Yes, it is a fairy tale invented by people like you, who only wish to "mold" religion with naturalistic views.
You didn't address my question to explain how an atheist would write what I quoted from Darwin.

You say "naturalistic" as though naturalistic is without God. Do you think so? If so, why?

There is more than sufficient reason for me to not want to argue over such point.
Why? It would seem essential to your point that Darwinism is the equivalent of atheism. Look, if you meant atheistic evolution, just say so.

Darwin and Huxley both thought that atheism didn't have an intellectual leg to stand on. It's one reason why Huxley invented the term "agnostic" because he didn't want to be called atheist. So if you want to fight atheism, let us know and we'll help you with arguments to do so. But fighting atheism by fighting Darwinism is the wrong fight at the wrong place and one theism can't win. If you fight atheism on the battleground of Darwinism, atheism will win.

that is as much as an argument that you will be able to produce, so I will let you enjoy it, if you can.
I made several arguments against your position several posts ago. You never addressed any of them. It appears I'm doing pretty well in my arguments.

I have to use my time wisely, and if you wish to use that against me, then go ahead and do so.
Fine. Can you get back and address some of my points reiterated below? Or are they also too trivial?

"Darwinists do NOT cliam that the universe was random or that survival is random. Quite the opposite. The processes of physics and chemistry are not random. And natural selection is the exact opposite of random. Individuals survive and reproduce more than other individuals not by chance but because they have superior designs for that particular environment."

"There is not the objective, intersubjective evidence to "prove" God exists. However, millions of people have the personal experience necessary to convince them that God exists. Apparently you aren't among them.
Right now, science can't prove that God exists or does not exist. But then, if you use the Hubble telescope you can't prove that mitochondria exist. Wrong tool."

Add to that your desire to have science show the existence of God: "Why does God not make something, even the slightest thing, to show us that He indeed exists? " Why do you have to have God make something testable by science to show He exists?
 
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Lucaspa,

Thank you for your interest in the subject; unfortunately, I already stated that I can't go into that, at least not in this thread. The terms I used throughout the discussion, even if you think that I am wrong in using them, were only presented as part of "understanding" my statement or argument.

Maybe on another occassion (definately in another thread) we can dive into this. But for this thread, there is no room for that. In fact, there was not even room for Vance's insertion of:

"The LAST thing I would do is create a world instantly which looks identical to one which took billions of years to get to where it is now."

The question was of whether or not you would do it in an instant, or over a long period of time. A simple "instantly" or "lengthy" answer was required, not everything else that was inserted.

Now, I have to continue my reading, and will try to find some time to respond to Vance's last response to me. I will also take a look at anything from you, which may have to do with the discussion between Vance and I--and that is not related to the use of the terms.

Blessings!
 
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lucaspa

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Karaite said:
Vance: The LAST thing I would do is create a world instantly which looks identical to one which took billions of years to get to where it is now."
Tell me, did you review your post before you submitted it? You should make it a habit to do that, because you would avoid making statements like the above.
I agree with Vance on this one. It is easy to create a young earth and universe that looks young. Very little topsoil and no sedimentary rocks, no star visible beyond 10,000 light years and new stars appearing in recorded history as their light first reaches earth, etc. Faced with such a universe, the only possible conclusion would be that it was indeed only a few thousand years old.

Also, if I am asking people to trust me on such things as salvation, I most certainly would not start out be deceiving them with a universe that only looks old and that formed over a considerable period of time when I had really created it in an instant.

So, would you also not create a world which apparently seemed impossible to arise randomly? You would not create a world which seemed to have been intelligently designed?
Maybe that's not possible. Dembski talks a lot about complex, specified, information and that it must be "borrowed"; it can't be created. Well, if I want a universe that has the type of life found on earth, then I have to borrow some very specific (pardon the pun) complex, specified information. Ross lists a lot of it on www.reasons.org. There isn't a lot of choice about the physical parameters of the universe.

A world which would testify of some kind of purpose?
Why do I need a world to testify to purpose when I can communicate with humans and tell them directly my purpose?

The question was 'if you had the power to create the world quickly' (the world means, the earth which is now considered to be billions of years old).
And my answer was: Absolutely I'd take a long time. Because the physical processes I'm using to create take a long time. Gravity doesn't pull matter together into galaxies, stars, or planets in an instant. It takes time. Similarly, using Darwinian selection to design biological organisms takes a long time. And I would use Darwinian selection because it is so much a better designer than any entity. It would give me designs I wouldn't be able to get myself.
 
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Vance

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Lucaspa said:

"And I would use Darwinian selection because it is so much a better designer than any entity. It would give me designs I wouldn't be able to get myself."

I agree with your post as a whole, but this bit I would dispute, assuming you had the full power of God. There is nothing that God could not create if He chose to. Every creature which could be created by evolution God could simply blink into existence. He is omniscient and omnipotent, so He knows every possible being in every possible variation and, obviously, has the power to say "poof, there it is".

So, the reason for choosing evolution is not because it can result in things which you, playing God, could not design for yourself. The choice would be to simply allow all of Creation to develop along the evolutionary course (which you would establish) for other reasons.
 
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lucaspa

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Vance said:
Lucaspa said:

"And I would use Darwinian selection because it is so much a better designer than any entity. It would give me designs I wouldn't be able to get myself."

I agree with your post as a whole, but this bit I would dispute, assuming you had the full power of God. There is nothing that God could not create if He chose to. Every creature which could be created by evolution God could simply blink into existence. He is omniscient and omnipotent, so He knows every possible being in every possible variation and, obviously, has the power to say "poof, there it is".
The OP didn't say I had the full power of God. But that is a quibble. I would certainly use Darwinian selection for the reasons I gave.

Get seated, because we're going to kick a couple of ideas around to see if they yelp. Specifically, we are going to think about whether this statement -- "So, the reason for choosing evolution is not because it can result in things which you, playing God, could not design for yourself." -- is necessarily true.

1. Logically, God can't be omnipotent. He can't create a rock He can't lift.
2. The data says He isn't omniscient. The Uncertainty Principle and the rest of indeterminancy in quantum mechanics applies to God as well as any other entity. God created a universe where He is not omniscient.

So, the questions are: how powerful and knowing does God have to be to be God? Is it required that God be omniscient and/or omnipotent?

Now, as far as I can tell, Darwinian selection is the only way to design. It is the one and only algorithm to get design. Whether that algorithm is used inside the "mind" of humans and God or plays out in nature, it is still the only way to design.

Now, you could argue that God is knowing enough to know every possible genome in the Library of Mendel and is powerful enough to manufacture an organism around that genome.

I do know that humans use Darwinian selection when the design problem is too tough for them and they end up with designs that they don't know how they work.

So, let us suppose God knows He wants a creature capable of communicating with Him but doesn't know how to do so. He can confidently turn Darwinian selection loose with the knowledge that it will eventually produce such a creature. Like humans, God might have ended up with a design He doesn't understand.

Judging from the general stories of the Bible, that's exactly what happened. Any human parent would know you don't put two "kids" into a room, put a cookie in the middle of the room, and then tell the kids they shouldn't touch it. Yet the story has God doing exactly that with Adam and Eve. Any human grandparent knows you don't praise one grandkid's picture and tell the other grandkid that his picture is no good. Yet God does exactly that with Cain and Abel. While the stories aren't literal, what if they do capture an accurate picture of God's incompetence in dealing with humans?

God keeps trying to communicate certain ideas to us and keeps having to change methods to do so. He starts with Commandments. Those don't work, so He tries prophets. Those don't work, so God has to become human.

You noted that God seems to have ended up with a Bible that can be interpreted thousands (over 20,000 at last count in denominations) different and contradictory ways. You say that this may mean God is deceptive. How about instead it happens because God doesn't know exactly how to communicate with us? That God didn't realize how we work and thus didn't realize that all the misinterpretations would come up?

The choice would be to simply allow all of Creation to develop along the evolutionary course (which you would establish) for other reasons.
OK, let's take this one for discussion too. We'll assume that God knows the Library of Mendel (all possible genomes) and could have manufactured an organism from any of those genomes. Instread, God chose evolution to explore it.

Why? One possible reason is that creating a universe that works this way also ensures that the lives of the creatures in the universe have meaning. That is, choices of theirs shape the future of the universe. If God simply picks a genome and zaps it into existence, then God is playing puppetmaster. Whatever happens after that isn't totally up to the creatures, but is constrained by the genome that God picked. It would be like me picking the genome for my kids. I've limited their life. Yes, their life is limited by the genome they do get by recombination and mutation, but at least their life is theirs, not my imposition.
 
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lucaspa

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Vance said:
Lucaspa said:

I agree with your post as a whole,
Then notice that Dembski destroys God as Creator becaues God didn't create the CSI for the universe, but had to borrow it from some existing "storehouse" of CSI. I loved Dembski's argument about CSI in No Free Lunch because, in trying to have God as Creator by creating CSI, he ends up showing that God didn't create CSI! CSI predates and is greater than God. Nice work, Dembski!

So ID is just as dangerous to Christianity as Creation Science. But that is another thread. :)
 
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Vance

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That last paragraph (of your second to last post) is heading toward what may be a legitimate reason why God may have chosen to use evolution as the means by which He created life on this planet.

But, I have much more difficulty with the concept of God *not* being omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent. He was here before this universe existed, has always been here, and always will be here. Any entity which can speak the universe into existense, and also speak directly to my heart with a "still, small voice" is as close to all those "omni's" as makes no difference for the purposes under discussion. This is the entity which encompasses the universe and all that is in it, and yet knows every intimate detail and thought of each person that ever lived.

As for the rock analogy, I think Karl said it best:

"But some things are not impossible because of a lack of power. but because they are logically meaningless, like square circles. God cannot draw a square circle.

Nor can God make a rock so big He can't lift it. Such a rock cannot exist, because, logically, God can lift all possible rocks.

The problem is not that an omnipotent being cannot exist; the problem is with a definition of omnipotent that includes the ability to do the logically meangingless."

I think discussions as the the boundaries of God become meaningless for the simple reason of our massive ignorance. As I stated before, God is to us as we are to a single-celled organism. Ask that organism to explain quantam mechanics and you about have the correct scope of the task involved in us describing God and His nature.

Yes, evolution as a process may be the "default" or natural method of problem-solving in the universe (I have not analyzed this), but it would still be God that created the process since he started with nothing.

And, yes, I believe that the early writers of the Scripture seemed to portray God as one who, in many cases was not omniscient, and God allowed them to portray Him this way for some reason. But I would still ascribe the discrepancy as more likely due to a higher purpose of God's about which we can know nothing than due to any limitation on God.
 
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lucaspa

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Vance said:
But, I have much more difficulty with the concept of God *not* being omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent.
I know its difficult, but you can't shy away from data simply because the implications are difficult.
1. Karl notwithstanding, omnipotence is defined as the ability to do anything. "having virtually unlimited authority or influence" Well, there are some things that simply can't be done. The square circle I agree is silly, because that is a matter of definition. However, creating rocks is within God's power, so it is legitimate to ask if God can create a rock He can't lift. Whatever the answer, including Karl's "God can lift all possible rocks" means that God doesn't have unlimited power.
2. The data on indeterminancy is overwhelming. Whether God in some existential sense is omniscient can't be known. What is known is that in regards to the universe we inhabit, God is not omniscient. Indeterminancy applies to all beings, including God.
3. Again, the data is overwhelming in quantum mechanics that the wave functions (coherence) collapse on observation. Yet recent experiments show that coherence is real. Therefore God is not present everywhere to be the observer to collapse the wave functions.

He was here before this universe existed, has always been here, and always will be here. Any entity which can speak the universe into existense, and also speak directly to my heart with a "still, small voice" is as close to all those "omni's" as makes no difference for the purposes under discussion.
"Speak the universe into existence"? Hmmm. And here I thought God created the universe by the Big Bang.

However, I notice that you also say "as close to all those omni's as makes no difference". Which means that God does not have to absolutely fulfill the omni's to be God. So, the answer to my question is "No, God does not have to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent to be God. He has to be close to those." Which puts us on the slippery slope of "how close". Got your cleats on? :)

I think discussions as the the boundaries of God become meaningless for the simple reason of our massive ignorance. As I stated before, God is to us as we are to a single-celled organism. Ask that organism to explain quantam mechanics and you about have the correct scope of the task involved in us describing God and His nature.
Cop-out. Vance, this is no different than saying "God did it" when faced with falsifications of particular aspects of creationism. Why did God design the panda with a makeshift thumb when He had just designed primates with a much better thumb and the panda has such a thumb but fused to the other digits? The answer we get? "I think discussions as the the boundaries of God become meaningless for the simple reason of our massive ignorance."

Do we accept such an answer there? I don't think we should accept it here.

Yes, evolution as a process may be the "default" or natural method of problem-solving in the universe (I have not analyzed this), but it would still be God that created the process since he started with nothing.
Analyze natural selection. It is an algorithm to get design. Do a web search on "genetic algorithm" and see what you get. Look at the description of natural selection at the end of the post and analyze it. It is a recipe to get design.

Now, you can say that God created natural selection. That's not the issue. The idea I am kicking around is that God used natural selection to create humans because He didn't know or wasn't sure how to create a sentient species. And, like so many humans who have used natural selection, He got a design He didn't understand and now has to figure out. See the next post for a good example of that in the human world.

And, yes, I believe that the early writers of the Scripture seemed to portray God as one who, in many cases was not omniscient, and God allowed them to portray Him this way for some reason. But I would still ascribe the discrepancy as more likely due to a higher purpose of God's about which we can know nothing than due to any limitation on God.
Fine, but I'm asking you to explore the "what if" they got it right and were not misled. Where does that take you? Follow the logical yellow brick road and see where you end up.

"If, during the long course of ages and under varying conditions of life, organic beings vary at all in the several parts of their organization, and I think this cannot be disputed; if there be, owing to the high geometric powers of increase of each species, at some age, season, or year, a severe struggle for life, and this certainly cannot be disputed; then, considering the infinite complexity of the relations of all organic beings to each other and to their conditions of existence, causing an infinite diversity in structure, constitution, and habits, to be advantageous to them, I think it would be a most extraordinary fact if no variation ever had occurred useful to each beings welfare, in the same way as so many variations have occured useful to man. But if variations useful to any organic being do occur, assuredly individuals thus characterized will have the best chance of being preserved in the struggle for life; and from the strong principle of inheritance they will will tend to produce offspring similarly characterized. This principle of preservation, I have called, for the sake of brevity, Natural Selection." [Origin, p 127 6th ed.]
 
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lucaspa

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HOME · NEW SCIENTIST · NS+

[Archive: 15 November1997]
http://www.newscientist.com/ns/971115/features.html
http://www.newscientist.com/nsplus/...primordial.html
CREATURES
FROM PRIMORDIAL SILICON


Let Darwinism loose in an electronics lab
and just watch what it creates. A lean,
mean machine that nobody understands.
Clive Davidson reports

"GO!" barks the researcher into the microphone. The oscilloscope in front of him displays a steady green line across the top of its screen. "Stop!" he says and the line immediately drops to the bottom.

Between the microphone and the oscilloscope is an electronic circuit that discriminates between the two words. It puts out 5 volts when it hears "go" and cuts off the signal when it hears "stop".

It is unremarkable that a microprocessor can perform such a task--except in this case. Even though the circuit consists of only a small number of basic components, the researcher, Adrian Thompson, does not know how it works. He can't ask the designer because there wasn't one. Instead, the circuit evolved from a "primordial soup" of silicon components guided by the principles of genetic variation and survival of the fittest.

Thompson's work is not aimless tinkering. His brand of evolution managed to construct a working circuit with fewer than one-tenth of the components that a human designer would have used. His experiments--which began four years ago and earned him his PhD--are already making waves. Chip manufacturers, robot makers and satellite builders are interested because the technique could produce smaller, more efficient devices than those designed today using traditional methods. ...

Looking for inspiration

Computer scientists have long looked to biology for inspiration. ... They have also worked out ways to mate and mutate programs and allow the resulting programs to compete with one another to generate the "fittest" software for a task. These "genetic algorithms" have been used to evolve software that does everything from creating works of art to selecting high-performing shares on the stock market.

Digital computers break down all data into strings of 1s and 0s, which the hardware stores as "ons" and "offs" in its memory. This forces the transistors inside computer chips to work as switches--they're either on or off. But transistors are not intrinsically digital. Between on and off they pass through a smooth series of values, and in these regions they can behave as amplifiers, for example. Computer designers, however, make little or no use of these properties. ...

What would happen, Thompson asked, if it were possible to strip away the digital constraints and apply evolution directly to the hardware? Would evolution be able to exploit all the electronic properties of silicon components in the same way that it has exploited the biochemical structures of the organic world?

"I wanted to see what happens if you let evolution break out of the constraints that humans have," says Thompson. "If you give it some hardware, does it do new things?" ... Thompson found the solution in a field-programmable gate array (FPGA).

the logic gates in an FPGA and their interconnections can be changed at will. The transistors are arranged into an array of "logic cells" and simply by loading a special program into the chip's configuration memory, circuit designers can turn each cell into any one of a number of logic gates, and connect it to any other cell. So by loading first one program, then another, the chip can be changed at a stroke from, say, an amplifier to a modem ("Software, who needs it?", New Scientist, 2 November 1996, p 41).

Mission impossible

Thompson realised that he could use a standard genetic algorithm to evolve a configuration program for an FPGA and then test each new circuit design immediately on the chip. He set the system a task that appeared impossible for a human designer. Using only 100 logic cells, evolution had to come up with a circuit that could discriminate between two tones, one at 1 kilohertz and the other at 10 kilohertz.

To kick off the experiment, Thompson created a population of 50 configuration programs on a computer, each consisting of a random string of 1s and 0s. ... The genetic algorithm tested the fitness of each circuit by checking how well it discriminated between the tones. It looked for some characteristic that might prove useful in evolving a solution. At first, this was just an indication that the circuit's output was not completely random. In the first generation, the fittest individual was one with a steady 5-volt output no matter which audio tone it heard.

After testing the initial population, the genetic algorithm killed off the least fit individuals by deleting them and let the most fit produce copies of themselves--offspring. It mated some individuals, swapping sections of their code. Finally, the algorithm introduced a small number of mutations by randomly switching 1s and 0s within individual programs. It then downloaded the new population one at a time onto the FPGA and ran the fitness tests once more.

By generation 220, the fittest individual produced outputs almost identical to the inputs--two waveforms corresponding to 1 kilohertz and 10 kilohertz--but not yet the required steady output at 0 volts or 5 volts (see Diagram, below right). By generation 650, the output stayed mostly high for the 1 kilohertz input, although the 10 kilohertz input still produced a waveform. By generation 1400, the output was mostly high for the first signal and mostly low for the second. By generation 2800, the fittest circuit was discriminating accurately between the two inputs, but there were still glitches in its output. These only disappeared completely at generation 4100. After this, there were no further changes.

Once the FPGA could discriminate between the two tones, it was fairly easy to continue the evolutionary process until the circuit could detect the more finely modulated differences between the spoken words "go" and "stop".

So how did evolution do it? If a human designer, steeped in digital lore, were to tackle the same problem, one component would have been essential--a clock. ...

In order to ensure that his circuit came up with a unique result, Thompson deliberately left a clock out of the primordial soup of components from which the circuit evolved. Of course, a clock could have evolved. The simplest would probably be a "ring oscillator"--a circle of cells that change their output every time a signal passes through. ... But Thompson reckoned that a ring oscillator was unlikely to evolve because it would need far more than the 100 cells available.

So how did evolution do it--and without a clock? When he looked at the final circuit, Thompson found the input signal routed through a complex assortment of feedback loops. He believes that these probably create modified and time-delayed versions of the signal that interfere with the original signal in a way that enables the circuit to discriminate between the two tones. "But really, I don't have the faintest idea how it works," he says.

One thing is certain: the FPGA is working in an analogue manner. ...

That repertoire turns out to be more intriguing than Thompson could have imagined. Although the configuration program specified tasks for all 100 cells, it transpired that only 32 were essential to the circuit's operation. Thompson could bypass the other cells without affecting it. A further five cells appeared to serve no logical purpose at all--there was no route of connections by which they could influence the output. And yet if he disconnected them, the circuit stopped working.

It appears that evolution made use of some physical property of these cells--possibly a capacitive effect or electromagnetic inductance--to influence a signal passing nearby. Somehow, it seized on this subtle effect and incorporated it into the solution.

...

Thompson's circuits have so far solved only simple problems. If they succeed at more complex tasks, they could prove useful for all kinds of applications. Thompson has evolved controllers for miniature robots for Xilinx, the Edinburgh firm that makes FPGAs. And the American company Motorola is showing interest in his ideas because they may mesh well with a new analogue FPGA the company has produced. British Telecom, which has an obvious interest in the sort of signal-processing problem that Thompson started with, is sponsoring work by Layzell, who is extending Thompson's ideas.

Already, at Napier University in Edinburgh, Julian Miller and Peter Thomson have picked up on Thompson's concept and are evolving their own digital circuits. They do this at a slightly higher level than Thompson, by creating lists of logic gates and connections, and putting evolution to work on these lists. They've evolved simple arithmetic units such as a multiplier. "It uses a lot fewer resources than a human would design," says Thomson.

... At Napier, Thomson and Miller hope that evolution will teach them new design tricks. "It gives us a new way of looking at things," says Thomson. And at Sussex, Adrian Thompson has his own goal. "I'm just trying to explore what evolution will do."

Perhaps this is where the real value of his work lies. Whether or not his approach produces useful devices, it may help us to understand more about how the evolutionary process itself works. But that's another story.

Further reading: A collection of Adrian Thompson's papers is posted on his Web site at http://www.cogs.susx.ac.uk/ users/adrianth/ade.html
 
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Vance

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Lucaspa said:

I know its difficult, but you can't shy away from data simply because the implications are difficult.

It is not a matter of "shying away" from anything. It is a matter of whether you approach God from a perspective that He is able to be analyzed as a whole. I say no, this is utterly and completely impossible. We can only analyze that minuscule portion of His nature that we have been allowed to glimpse which, without the perspective of the whole, can create very distorted views if you attempt to analyze it *as if* you were viewing the whole.

1. Karl notwithstanding, omnipotence is defined as the ability to do anything. "having virtually unlimited authority or influence" Well, there are some things that simply can't be done. The square circle I agree is silly, because that is a matter of definition. However, creating rocks is within God's power, so it is legitimate to ask if God can create a rock He can't lift. Whatever the answer, including Karl's "God can lift all possible rocks" means that God doesn't have unlimited power.

But this really is just semantics to avoid omnipotence. I think Karl has it right on this one, God is simply not limited to the type of analysis that a mere human can apply. To us, these conundrums raise issues that simply don’t apply to God. I think that your starting point of "God can be understood and analyzed" is where we differ and which leads to such dramatically different results. If I believed as you do, that God was finite enough to be subject to human analysis, I would likely agree with some of your conclusions. But for me, these analyses become meaningless since I have no illusions to ever understanding God in full.

The evidence of my experience and the power of my Faith informs me that God is the eternal and all-encompassing, infinite power of the universe. For you, God is something different entirely. Something more finite, graspable and understandable. My Faith means that, while I am very interested in how God did things, there is a point at which I may very well simply not be able to know it. And I am fine with this.

2. The data on indeterminancy is overwhelming. Whether God in some existential sense is omniscient can't be known. What is known is that in regards to the universe we inhabit, God is not omniscient. Indeterminancy applies to all beings, including God.

But see, that is the point. God is above ANY and all concepts that humans can conjecture. He is not bound by our concepts or projections, however logical or analytically correct. God is *outside* of all of that (while still being *inside* everything we see). He simply is not subject to any restrictions or limitations we want to impose upon Him. We simply have radically different views of what God is. I think that He approaches us, for the most part, in ways that generally conform to what we can grasp and understand simply to facilitate the relationship. But he is not limited to that conformation.

3. Again, the data is overwhelming in quantum mechanics that the wave functions (coherence) collapse on observation. Yet recent experiments show that coherence is real. Therefore God is not present everywhere to be the observer to collapse the wave functions.

Again, God is simply not subject to anything humans can conceive, as described above.

"Speak the universe into existence"? Hmmm. And here I thought God created the universe by the Big Bang.

Did He not speak the Big Bang? Regardless, the point is that He was here before all and all that is here, from time to matter to anti-matter, it is all His initiation and production.

However, I notice that you also say "as close to all those omni's as makes no difference". Which means that God does not have to absolutely fulfill the omni's to be God. So, the answer to my question is "No, God does not have to be omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent to be God. He has to be close to those." Which puts us on the slippery slope of "how close". Got your cleats on? :)

What I meant by that was that any "limitation" God may inherently have due to some odd set of circumstances I can not grasp is irrelevant since for every definition that could have any meaning to humans, the omni’s still apply.


Cop-out. Vance, this is no different than saying "God did it" when faced with falsifications of particular aspects of creationism. Why did God design the panda with a makeshift thumb when He had just designed primates with a much better thumb and the panda has such a thumb but fused to the other digits? The answer we get? "I think discussions as the the boundaries of God become meaningless for the simple reason of our massive ignorance."

Do we accept such an answer there? I don't think we should accept it here.

But this gets back to absolutism. I don’t think it is an all or nothing proposition. You are using your own form of "slippery slope": If we recognize the possibility that God could have done something that we don’t understand in one place, we will have then come to accept this occurrence in every case. I think that it is very possible that God, in some cases, *did* "just do it". Of course, all such instances would always be believed tentatively, since we are constantly learning more about God’s Creative process. But to deny that God could ever have "just done it" would be as faulty as literalism.

As for my statement regarding the nature of the gap between God and Man, it is not a cop-out in the least. It is not a position taken in order to avoid problems or dealing with issues. It is either a fact or not. If it is a fact that this gap exists, then what I am saying about or inability to grasp God’s nature is true. If it is not a fact, then my conclusions are not true. I do not believe in the gap because of the issues, I frame the issues because of my belief in the gap. This is not a cop-out
.


Analyze natural selection. It is an algorithm to get design. Do a web search on "genetic algorithm" and see what you get. Look at the description of natural selection at the end of the post and analyze it. It is a recipe to get design.

Now, you can say that God created natural selection. That's not the issue. The idea I am kicking around is that God used natural selection to create humans because He didn't know or wasn't sure how to create a sentient species. And, like so many humans who have used natural selection, He got a design He didn't understand and now has to figure out. See the next post for a good example of that in the human world.

But this entire theory is, once again, based on a view of God that has been anthropomorphized. Believe me, I do understand it, and if I viewed God as only slightly more than an Olympian god, it might make some sense. But I don’t.

Fine, but I'm asking you to explore the "what if" they got it right and were not misled. Where does that take you? Follow the logical yellow brick road and see where you end up.

Oh, I am not opposed to speculative thinking whatsoever. I have followed lots of theories to their logical conclusions just for fun. But if the original premise is not supportable to me, then everything dependant upon that premise will ultimately be unpersuasive.
 
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Vance,

Would you still like for me to respond to your last post, or shall I let you continue your already started discussion with Lucaspa? It seems you got a lot of work to do, and I would not want to complicate it anymore.

But let me know if you still want me to respond or not. I have some time to provide you wtih a response.

PS. I would love to give you a hand with lucaspa, but I think my other desire is more persuasive, of course, that I would like to see how much alike (or not alike) are your god and lucaspa's god.
 
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Vance

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Karaite said:
Vance,

Would you still like for me to respond to your last post, or shall I let you continue your already started discussion with Lucaspa? It seems you got a lot of work to do, and I would not want to complicate it anymore.

But let me know if you still want me to respond or not. I have some time to provide you wtih a response.

PS. I would love to give you a hand with lucaspa, but I think my other desire is more persuasive, of course, that I would like to see how much alike (or not alike) are your god and lucaspa's god.
No, there is no burning need for you to respond to my last post. I think we see where the other is coming from generally.

I think that one interesting thing that can be taken from my discussion with Lucaspa is that groups such as this are not divided into Camp A and Camp B, and that everyone lock-steps in accord with their group. Some have suggested that those of us who fall into the OE/TE camp just back each other up out of some type of solidarity to a "cause". This is simply not true.

Another important factor is that people will also often believe that in order to be a TE, you must believe as Lucaspa believes, or something along those lines. You can see that I disagree fairly sharply on some of these issues with Lucaspa (and probably more in line with what you believe on these specific points), yet I agree with him completely that the earth is billions of years old, evolution is very likely the method by which God created diversity, no global flood ever happened, etc.

You can see that there is no slippery slope effect for me. The belief in the old earth, evolution and no global flood does *not* lead, in my case, to the same type of approach as Lucaspa's.

And, despite our disparate beliefs on these points, I believe that Lucaspa is a dedicated Christian who I will very likely see in Heaven someday. Another important point.
 
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Oh, I certainly believe that you do form an alliance, as long as it is to "defeat" the "greater evil". It is only human nature, you can't deny such thing. But I certainly don't believe that you will share the same beliefs.

And I certainly don't think you would agree much with me on the matters of who and what (type of god) God is. I don't agree with the limitations that lucaspa has given his god, but I think the God of the Bible is far more than what Christendom has made Him to be.
 
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Vance

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Karaite said:
Oh, I certainly believe that you do form an alliance, as long as it is to "defeat" the "greater evil". It is only human nature, you can't deny such thing. But I certainly don't believe that you will share the same beliefs.

And I certainly don't think you would agree much with me on the matters of who and what (type of god) God is. I don't agree with the limitations that lucaspa has given his god, but I think the God of the Bible is far more than what Christendom has made Him to be.
Well, there is no alliance, only people reacting the same way to a given argument. If two people who disagree on almost everything are told by a third person that 2+2=5, the two may very well simultaneously come up with exactly the same response: you are wrong. They may even turn to each other and say "you are correct in saying he is wrong". Then they go on disagreeing about everything else. Would you say they have an alliance? I guess it depends on your definition of alliance.

As for God being more than what Christendom has made Him to be, I would tend to agree with this, but whether in the same way as you, I have no idea.
 
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