HOW WOULD YOU DEFEND AGAINST SOUL SLEEP ?

[Dan Perez]

@Carl Emerson, @BobRyan, @TedT, @Rachel20, @SavedByGrace3
@Davy, @earthmover, @revybub, @SarahsKnight, @martymonster

'For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.'
(Colossians 3:3-4)

Hello @Dan Perez

I see no reason why I should have to defend a truth that is so obviously Scriptural.
* See 1 Corinthians 15:51; 1 Thessalonians 4:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:10.
The words, 'Awake', or 'Sleep', are figurative of the state of the Living or the dead - in Christ. The word 'Sleep' is never applied to an unbeliever: for the unbeliever does not have the hope of life in Christ Jesus.

The verse quoted (above) has a spiritual application: but it is none the less true, that Christ is our life; and there is no resurrection life apart from Him. Whether living or dead, the believer will be changed on that day of God's choosing: and when Christ Jesus the risen Lord appears in glory, then the church which is His Body shall appear with Him there; until then in God's estimation those who die, in Christ, 'sleep' in Him, until that day of His appearing in glory.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

Sorry that I am late to respond .

#1 The spirit goes back to Christ that gave it , Eccl 12:7 .

#2l The BODY goes in a GRAVE .

#3 The SOUL goes to HADES / HELL , as written in Luke 16:23 ..

#4 So where where does the SOUL of those saved by GRACE , SOUL go at death ?

What say you ?
dan p

 

[Davy]

@Davy,

'For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.'
(Colossians 3:3-4)

Hello @Dan Perez

I see no reason why I should have to defend a truth that is so obviously Scriptural.
* See 1 Corinthians 15:51; 1 Thessalonians 4:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:10.
The words, 'Awake', or 'Sleep', are figurative of the state of the Living or the dead - in Christ. The word 'Sleep' is never applied to an unbeliever: for the unbeliever does not have the hope of life in Christ Jesus.

The verse quoted (above) has a spiritual application: but it is none the less true, that Christ is our life; and there is no resurrection life apart from Him. Whether living or dead, the believer will be changed on that day of God's choosing: and when Christ Jesus the risen Lord appears in glory, then the church which is His Body shall appear with Him there; until then in God's estimation those who die, in Christ, 'sleep' in Him, until that day of His appearing in glory.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

There still the matter of 'understanding' Biblically about what type of body the resurrection is, and how it does not involve a new flesh body, as per Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:49-50. Paul was emphatic that flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of God.

And the 'body' Paul was pointing to in Romans 8:23 that he said "groans WITHIN ourselves", that is about the redemption of our "spiritual body" that is inside our flesh body. It seeks to be released... from the limitations of our flesh. This is actually Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 was teaching about flesh death. Our spirit there is about our spirit body, the "spiritual body" that Paul taught the resurrection is.

 

[LizaMarie]

Moses and Elijah are still very much awake.

Jesus said the Thief would be in paradise with Him that day.

The crowd of witnesses must be awake to watch.

I think that what is not understood is that at death we are released from the created realm of chronology so our being with Jesus is instantaneous even though the days on earth are still playing out.

What he said^^^

 

[Davy]

#2l The BODY goes in a GRAVE .

#3 The SOUL goes to HADES / HELL , as written in Luke 16:23 ..

#4 So where where does the SOUL of those saved by GRACE , SOUL go at death ?

What say you ?

The flesh body goes back to the earthly material elements where it came from, to be exact. The word "grave" in the Old Testament is often translated from a word that is pointing to Hades, so it's best to not confuse Eccl.12:5-7 with that idea.

The soul, per Jesus' story of Lazarus and the rich man of Luke 16, shows our soul goes to one of two places in the Heavenly, to Paradise either on the side of 'hell' (Hades), or on the other side where Abraham is.

Moreover, since Eccl.12 pointed to our 'spirit', that also is what continues in the Heavenly dimension with our soul. Our soul and spirit are permanently tied together. And our soul-spirit is tied temporarily to our flesh body via the "silver cord" Eccl.12 revealed that is severed at flesh death.

What it boils down to showing us, is that whether here on earth in this earthly dimension, or in the Heavenly dimension, our 'soul' requires a body to manifest with. On earth it is a flesh body. But in the Heavenly it is a 'spirit' body, the "spiritual body" that Apostle Paul taught that the resurrection is (1 Cor.15). Our 'soul' part is the real person, the individual. And the "spiritual body" is a Heavenly vehicle for the 'soul' to manifest in. This was the very point that Apostle Paul was teaching in the 2 Corinthians 5 chapter.

 

[Dan Perez]

There still the matter of 'understanding' Biblically about what type of body the resurrection is, and how it does not involve a new flesh body, as per Apostle Paul in 1 Corinthians 15:49-50. Paul was emphatic that flesh and blood CANNOT inherit the Kingdom of God.

And the 'body' Paul was pointing to in Romans 8:23 that he said "groans WITHIN ourselves", that is about the redemption of our "spiritual body" that is inside our flesh body. It seeks to be released... from the limitations of our flesh. This is actually Ecclesiastes 12:5-7 was teaching about flesh death. Our spirit there is about our spirit body, the "spiritual body" that Paul taught the resurrection is.

Are you saying that the SOUL and BODY stay together ?


Or that SOUL and BODY are separated ?

What are your thoughts as to where GRACE SAVED SOULS go at death ? to PARADISE with the THIEF on the cross and into Jesus 's Kingdom ?

Or into and INTERMIATE STATE or ?

What are your thoughts ?

dan p

 

[Davy]

Are you saying that the SOUL and BODY stay together ?

I don't have a clue just WHAT "BODY" you mean, since you made NO distinction of what type.

Or that SOUL and BODY are separated ?

Again, WHICH BODY?

What are your thoughts as to where GRACE SAVED SOULS go at death ? to PARADISE with the THIEF on the cross and into Jesus 's Kingdom ?

Or into and INTERMIATE STATE or ?

What are your thoughts ?

dan p

I'm not Catholic, but a Protestant, which means I stick strictly to what The Bible teaches as written.

Jesus' story of Lazarus and the rich man revealed the Heavenly Paradise. And yeah, He revealed Paradise as a place in the heavenly again with telling the malefactor crucified with Him that believed on Him that he would be with Him, that very day, in Paradise.

Now I posted the western actor Clint Walker's testimony about the near death experience he had, speaking of his spirit body being separated from his flesh body. Did you skip that?

Eccl 12:5-7
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:

6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it.
KJV

That above reveals that we each have a 'spirit' that is attached to our flesh body via a "silver cord", and IF... that silver cord is severed, then a permanent separation then occurs. With Clint Walker's NDE situation, evidently his "silver cord" was not severed, so his 'spirit' returned back into his flesh body, and he lived.

Now some scholars like to think that word "spirit" there in Eccl.12 is only about the idea of some life force that is in all... things, even plants and rocks (living coral), etc. But Lord Jesus in Matthew 10:28 said don't fear those who can kill our flesh body, but NOT our soul. And that means our 'soul' part is linked with our 'spirit' part that goes back to God, and is not just about animate life force idea with no conscious awareness.

So down and dirty, we each have a spirit body, with our soul attached to it, and that is attached to our flesh body via a "silver cord". That spirit body is... the "spiritual body" that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15. It is that another body not made with hands, but from God, eternal in the heavens, like he also taught in 2 Cor.5.

So there's NO EXCUSE for anyone to believe that our spirit-soul involves this material matter earthly dimension. Our spirit with soul is of the Heavenly dimension, and is not of fleshy matter. This is why Lord Jesus said in John 3, that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. This is why that "silver cord" must be involved between our spirit-soul and our flesh body, and that is only about those born through woman's womb.

 

[Dan Perez]

The flesh body goes back to the earthly material elements where it came from, to be exact. The word "grave" in the Old Testament is often translated from a word that is pointing to Hades, so it's best to not confuse Eccl.12:5-7 with that idea.

The soul, per Jesus' story of Lazarus and the rich man of Luke 16, shows our soul goes to one of two places in the Heavenly, to Paradise either on the side of 'hell' (Hades), or on the other side where Abraham is.

Moreover, since Eccl.12 pointed to our 'spirit', that also is what continues in the Heavenly dimension with our soul. Our soul and spirit are permanently tied together. And our soul-spirit is tied temporarily to our flesh body via the "silver cord" Eccl.12 revealed that is severed at flesh death.

What it boils down to showing us, is that whether here on earth in this earthly dimension, or in the Heavenly dimension, our 'soul' requires a body to manifest with. On earth it is a flesh body. But in the Heavenly it is a 'spirit' body, the "spiritual body" that Apostle Paul taught that the resurrection is (1 Cor.15). Our 'soul' part is the real person, the individual. And the "spiritual body" is a Heavenly vehicle for the 'soul' to manifest in. This was the very point that Apostle Paul was teaching in the 2 Corinthians 5 chapter.

When reading Ecc 12:7 says , that at death , our spirit SHALL RETURN / SUB , stem is QAL and is in the IMPERFECT TENSE , SINGULAR .

In heaven I say it is not a spirit body as we are a NEW CREATION which is a BODY that will GOVERN THE UNIVERSE and Govern ANGELS .

dan p




The HBEREW word WHO / ASER is a PARICLE RELATIVE

And that spirit will return unto God , who GAVE IT , and is not ours to keep .

Our body in the GRAVE .

 

[Davy]

When reading Ecc 12:7 says , that at death , our spirit SHALL RETURN / SUB , stem is QAL and is in the IMPERFECT TENSE , SINGULAR .

In heaven I say it is not a spirit body as we are a NEW CREATION which is a BODY that will GOVERN THE UNIVERSE and Govern ANGELS .

There are 2 different dimensions of existence per God's written Word. Lord Jesus declared them in John 3:6, Apostle Paul declared them in 2 Corinthians 5 and 1 Corinthians 15, even with the idea that as we have borne the "image of the earthy" (i.e., a flesh outward body likeness), we shall also bear the "image of the heavenly" (i.e., the heavenly body outward likeness). So what's your problem? Can't you read those Scriptures for yourself?

 

[Dan Perez]

There are 2 different dimensions of existence per God's written Word. Lord Jesus declared them in John 3:6, Apostle Paul declared them in 2 Corinthians 5 and 1 Corinthians 15, even with the idea that as we have borne the "image of the earthy" (i.e., a flesh outward body likeness), we shall also bear the "image of the heavenly" (i.e., the heavenly body outward likeness). So what's your problem? Can't you read those Scriptures for yourself?

Most would quote 2 Cor 5:6 and verse 7 as and answer !

I have to reject John 3:5 and 6 as it is written to Israel and not to the BODY OF CHRIST .

I say that at death all saved by GRACE goes to what Paul wrote about PADADISE in 2 Cor 12:1-4 .

dan p

 

[Davy]

Most would quote 2 Cor 5:6 and verse 7 as and answer !

I have to reject John 3:5 and 6 as it is written to m Israel and not to the BODY OF CHRIST .

I say that at death all saved by GRACE goes to what Paul wrote about PADADISE in 2 Cor 12:1-4 .

dan p

Since you REJECT the John 3:5-6 verses by LORD JESUS CHRIST Himself, then there's no use of me continuing conversation with you, because Apostle Paul said, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers." (2 Cor.6:14-16)

Welcome to my IGNORE list.

 

[Dan Perez]

Since you REJECT the John 3:5-6 verses by LORD JESUS CHRIST Himself, then there's no use of me continuing conversation with you, because Apostle Paul said, "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers." (2 Cor.6:14-16)

Welcome to my IGNORE list.

Sorry that you quote verse from John 3:3 that written to Israel and then quote a verse that my apostle wrote to the BODY OF CHRIST , when I ACCEPTED CHRIST as Lord , as written in Rom 10: 9 and 10 .

Does John 3:3 and Rom 10:9 and 10 speak to the same people ?

I will NEVER PUT ANY ONE on any IGNORE LIST .

dan p

 

[RevealedTruths]

Curb your gnosticism, gentlemen. The resurrected body is physical, as Jesus Himself confirmed in Luke 24:37. The human spirit is not a "spiritual body", the term spiritual body is never applied to the human spirit in Scripture. Flesh and blood is a Semitic idiom for the present, fallen condition of mortal man, not physicality.

 

[Dan Perez]

I don't have a clue just WHAT "BODY" you mean, since you made NO distinction of what type.


Again, WHICH BODY?


I'm not Catholic, but a Protestant, which means I stick strictly to what The Bible teaches as written.

Jesus' story of Lazarus and the rich man revealed the Heavenly Paradise. And yeah, He revealed Paradise as a place in the heavenly again with telling the malefactor crucified with Him that believed on Him that he would be with Him, that very day, in Paradise.

Now I posted the western actor Clint Walker's testimony about the near death experience he had, speaking of his spirit body being separated from his flesh body. Did you skip that?

Eccl 12:5-7
5 Also when they shall be afraid of that which is high, and fears shall be in the way, and the almond tree shall flourish, and the grasshopper shall be a burden, and desire shall fail: because man goeth to his long home, and the mourners go about the streets:

6 Or ever the silver cord be loosed, or the golden bowl be broken, or the pitcher be broken at the fountain, or the wheel broken at the cistern.
7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God Who gave it.
KJV

That above reveals that we each have a 'spirit' that is attached to our flesh body via a "silver cord", and IF... that silver cord is severed, then a permanent separation then occurs. With Clint Walker's NDE situation, evidently his "silver cord" was not severed, so his 'spirit' returned back into his flesh body, and he lived.

Now some scholars like to think that word "spirit" there in Eccl.12 is only about the idea of some life force that is in all... things, even plants and rocks (living coral), etc. But Lord Jesus in Matthew 10:28 said don't fear those who can kill our flesh body, but NOT our soul. And that means our 'soul' part is linked with our 'spirit' part that goes back to God, and is not just about animate life force idea with no conscious awareness.

So down and dirty, we each have a spirit body, with our soul attached to it, and that is attached to our flesh body via a "silver cord". That spirit body is... the "spiritual body" that Apostle Paul taught in 1 Cor.15. It is that another body not made with hands, but from God, eternal in the heavens, like he also taught in 2 Cor.5.

So there's NO EXCUSE for anyone to believe that our spirit-soul involves this material matter earthly dimension. Our spirit with soul is of the Heavenly dimension, and is not of fleshy matter. This is why Lord Jesus said in John 3, that which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. This is why that "silver cord" must be involved between our spirit-soul and our flesh body, and that is only about those born through woman's womb.

Since you quote John 3:6 , how then can Israel BE BORN AGAIN in verse 7 ?

dan p

 

[Davy]

Curb your gnosticism, gentlemen. The resurrected body is physical, as Jesus Himself confirmed in Luke 24:37. The human spirit is not a "spiritual body", the term spiritual body is never applied to the human spirit in Scripture. Flesh and blood is a Semitic idiom for the present, fallen condition of mortal man, not physicality.

This contradicts your belief on that... (Apostle Paul speaking below in 1 Cor.15):

1 Cor 15:42-50
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.

48 As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV


Each one of those above Scriptures in 'red' contradicts your belief about our having a flesh resurrection. So you might want to back up and do more Bible study on the subject instead of just believing what your preacher says to believe. Be a Berean like those who checked Apostle Paul out in the Scriptures, and which he commended them for it.

 

[RevealedTruths]

Each one of those above Scriptures in 'red' contradicts your belief about our having a flesh resurrection. So you might want to back up and do more Bible study on the subject instead of just believing what your preacher says to believe. Be a Berean like those who checked Apostle Paul out in the Scriptures, and which he commended them for it.

Paul is not saying that the resurrected body is non-physical. Flesh and blood is a common Hebrew idiom for the mortal state, not for literal flesh and blood. Jesus rose with a flesh-and-bone body, as He confirmed Himself, and there are numerous prophecies that state the resurrection will be physical. E.g. Ezekiel's valley of dry bones.

 

[Davy]

Paul is not saying that the resurrected body is non-physical.

Debate over.

Reason: Your refusal to agree with the actual Bible Scripture as written by Apostle Paul.