HOW WOULD YOU DEFEND AGAINST SOUL SLEEP ?

[Davy]

I agree !! The part of us that is present with the Lord immediately upon death is not flesh, but spirit. And it is not asleep, but alive ! Yet there will also be a resurrection of the body, the "oiketerion" we will be "clothed" with. But I'm thinking, this is why there is confusion over soul sleep - some merge the two into a single event in time, so that they can't see how we can be alive when our physical bodies aren't yet resurrected.

I know many believe our flesh is going to live again, but I don't see that idea with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 about the "spiritual body".

Many folks simply watch too many Hollywood movies which creates confusion on that other dimension body type, the "spiritual body". It's not a ghost body. It's simply a body made up of Spirit from that other dimension. Yet it still has some kind of substance, just not flesh material.

Here's something very, very deep written in God's Word, and it requires knowing a bit of basic earth science to really grasp it...

The following verse proves God's existence and the existence of that other dimension of Spirit...

Heb 11:3
3 Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.
KJV

That part above in bold is what comes to mind. It is basically saying that the material matter things of this world that we see, were not made of that same material matter. In other words, it means matter did not create matter.

That idea just so happens to be one of the basic laws of thermodynamics in physics, i.e., that material matter can neither be created nor destroyed, but simply changes its state (solid, liquid, vapor, gas).

If that's so then, HOW did material matter of this earthly dimension come into existence? That reveals a very profound Truth. It reveals that this material dimension of earthly matter had to have been created by ANOTHER DIMENSION that is not earthly matter.

That other DIMENSION is about GOD and Spirit. That is where earthly material matter originated from, from that 'other' dimension of Spirit. Careful revealing that to materialistic scientists, they cannot understand that. Before GOD created this earthly dimension, He had always existed eternally as a Spirit (John 4:24). He spoke, and this earthly dimension came into existence. And He said He created this earth to be lived upon (Isaiah 45:18). And He also promised to return to live with us on earth (Revelation 21).

So WHICH dimension is the MORE REAL, this earthly one we live in, or the heavenly one where GOD and the angels dwell? I realize many brethren have a hard time trying to answer that, because of their fleshy thinking. God did put an elementary desire for survival in our flesh to want to preserve it. But that 'other' dimension is actually the more real. But existence upon the earth isn't going anywhere either, it's just that the angelic type body doesn't need flesh to walk and live upon this earth. Everyone will understand this once the 'change' at the "last trump" happens with Jesus' future coming.

 

[martymonster]

Dan 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.


Ecc 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.
Ecc 9:6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun.


Mat 17:1 And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
Mat 17:2 And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
Mat 17:3 And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.
Mat 17:4 Then answered Peter, and said unto Jesus, Lord, it is good for us to be here: if thou wilt, let us make here three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias.
Mat 17:5 While he yet spake, behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them: and behold a voice out of the cloud, which said, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased; hear ye him.
Mat 17:6 And when the disciples heard it, they fell on their face, and were sore afraid.
Mat 17:7 And Jesus came and touched them, and said, Arise, and be not afraid.
Mat 17:8 And when they had lifted up their eyes, they saw no man, save Jesus only.
Mat 17:9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

 

[Davy]

Here's one for you guys to ponder on...

Rev 19:10
10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, "See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus": worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
KJV

 

[Rachel20]

I know many believe our flesh is going to live again, but I don't see that idea with what Apostle Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15 about the "spiritual body".

We can disagree, but I think that was Paul's reason for explicitly stating "to wit, the redemption of our body" in Romans 8:23. There's no point in arguing why there would be a need for a bodily redemption, just whether there is one, since it's God's plan not ours. But the idea of a bodily redemption would have been known by Paul -

For I know that my redeemer liveth, and that he shall stand at the latter day upon the earth:
And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God:
Whom I shall see for myself, and mine eyes shall behold, and not another; though my reins be consumed within me. (Job 19:25-27)

Note the resurrected body isn't the same as our current body because, as John said, we shall be like Christ for we shall see him as he is. We'll have to enter the dimensions of Christ in order to see him as he is. His resurrected body could appear flesh (he told Thomas he was not a ghost, and could eat and be touched), yet he could enter a cube (closed room) without going through any of it's sides. It's a superior body - and so will be ours, called "oiketerion" and the same the fallen angels left.

The word "oiketerion" appears only twice in scripture. Once in Jude 1:6 as "habitation", and as "house" in 2 Corinthians 5:2

And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day. Jude 1:6

For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.
For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:
If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. 2 Corinthians 5:1-3

 

[Davy]

We can disagree, but I think that was Paul's reason for explicitly stating "to wit, the redemption of our body" in Romans 8:23. There's no point in arguing why there would be a need for a bodily redemption, just whether there is one, since it's God's plan not ours. But the idea of a bodily redemption would have been known by Paul -

Firstly, I'm not arguing, nor just giving my opinion. I'm presenting Scripture.

When Paul said in 1 Corinthians 15:45 that the "... last Adam was made a quickening spirit", that was about Lord Jesus' flesh body being made a spirit body, because Paul said this in that same chapter...

1 Cor 15:49-50
49 And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
KJV

So if one wants to call that "image of the heavenly" like the angels a body also, that's fine, just know that it is not a flesh and blood type body like we have today. By that Paul shows it is not our flesh body that is raised at the resurrection, but our spiritual body, the "image of the heavenly".

 

[BobRyan]

It was not too long ago , that our Pastor preached on SOUL SLEEP , and how would you defend your self ?

Does anyone here AGREE or DISAGREE with that subject ?

dan p

I am no good at defending against it - since I accept 1 Thess 4:13-18 and John 11 "our friend Lazarus sleeps"

 

[BobRyan]

I agree !! The part of us that is present with the Lord immediately upon death is not flesh, but spirit.

first we need a text that says "part of us is present with the Lord immediately upon death"

 

[BobRyan]

Paul, when speaking of the rapture, said we will not all sleep (our bodies in the earth, our souls in Heaven), but we shall all be changed, with the dead in Christ rising first.

I agree with this part of that post.

 

[BobRyan]

Another verse - Abraham longed to see my day, and saw it, and was glad! John 8:56

And Jesus, correcting the Sadducees, proved by the burning bush that God is the God of the living, and not the dead (Mark 12:26-27).

John 8:56 informs us that Abraham in vision saw the days of Christ - was informed about the Gospel.
Gal 3:8 says the Gospel was "preached to Abraham"

Mark 12 and also Matt 22 - show us that the resurrection must take place in order for God's statement to Moses "I am the God of Abraham" to be true - since God is not the God of the dead and the only way a dormant soul can have a functioning child-of-God relationship is to be in resurrected form.

The soul is a bit like a SIM card in the phone. The phone is the body and the SIM card is the soul. The SIM card does nothing when outside the phone... but you can put an old SIM card in a new phone and the new phone contacts other people as the same person/number as the old phone.

 

[BobRyan]

Honestly don't know what it even is

It is 1 Thess 4:13-18 and John 11

1 Thess 4:
13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.
15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

John 11:
11 These things He said, and after that He said to them, “Our friend Lazarus sleeps, but I go that I may wake him up.”
12 Then His disciples said, “Lord, if he sleeps he will get well.” 13 However, Jesus spoke of his death, but they thought that He was speaking about taking rest in sleep.
14 Then Jesus said to them plainly, “Lazarus is dead. 15 And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, that you may believe

 

[BobRyan]

Moses and Elijah are still very much awake.

The soul sleep teaching agrees fully that Moses and Elijah are alive, in immortal bodies .. and have no need at all of being resurrected.

Elijah was bodily translated to heaven according to 2 Kings 2 and Moses was bodily assumed into heaven as we find in the book "the Assumption of Moses" which is reference/quoted-from in Jude 1:9

 

[BobRyan]

To be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

No text in the Bible says that - but there is one that says

"I prefer to be absent from the body AND TO BE - present with the Lord" 2 Cor 5:8 -- two different events.

 

[Carl Emerson]

The soul sleep teaching agrees fully that Moses and Elijah are alive, in immortal bodies .. and have no need at all of being resurrected.

Elijah was bodily translated to heaven according to 2 Kings 2 and Moses was bodily assumed into heaven as we find in the book "the Assumption of Moses" which is reference/quoted-from in Jude 1:9

The problem I have is that when we die in Jesus we are released from the chronology of creation and our encounter with Jesus is experientially immediate. So while those on earth don't see us for a time Jesus does as He is out of time.
So the issue of Moses and Elijah may not be what it seems. I think it would have been possible for David to appear.

However they were there to bear witness as representatives of the Law and the Prophets.

 

[BobRyan]

The problem I have is that when we die in Jesus we are released from the chronology of creation and our encounter with Jesus is experientially immediate. So while those on earth don't see us for a time Jesus does as He is out of time.

It is only "experientially immediate" because the "computer is shut down and battery removed" for that period of time - "experiencing nothing" such that when it starts back up -- it is "the next second".

But for "we who are alive and remain" all that "down time" in the case of a departed loved one is visible, is experiential reality for us. We see that the person is not in a resurrected body.

Trying to answer the question "how is it for God to experience that down time ?" is only applicable if one "is God".

 

[Carl Emerson]

It is only "experientially immediate" because the "computer is shut down and battery removed" for that period of time - "experiencing nothing" such that when it starts back up -- it is "the next second".

But for "we who are alive and remain" all that "down time" in the case of a departed loved one is visible, is experiential reality for us. We see that the person is not in a resurrected body.

Trying to answer the question "how is it for God to experience that down time ?" is only applicable if one "is God".

I don't see it that way - one doesn't have to be God to experience timelessness.

 

[BobRyan]

I don't see it that way - one doesn't have to be God to experience timelessness.

An example would be helpful just then. One cannot experience something where there is "no change". And change cannot happen (by definition) when there is no time because there is no "before something happened" and there is no "after something happened" - so "no change"

 

[Carl Emerson]

An example would be helpful just then. One cannot experience something where there is "no change". And change cannot happen (by definition) when there is no time.

Do you want me to have another crack at explaining it...

To me it satisfies the soul sleep argument.

 

[BobRyan]

Do you want me to have another crack at explaining it...

To me it satisfies the soul sleep argument.

yes or just point a link to your post where you detail that. Thanks.

 

[Carl Emerson]

yes or just point a link to your post where you detail that. Thanks.

Post #33

 

[readywriter]

It was not too long ago , that our Pastor preached on SOUL SLEEP , and how would you defend your self ?

Does anyone here AGREE or DISAGREE with that subject ?

dan p

@Carl Emerson, @BobRyan, @TedT, @Rachel20, @SavedByGrace3
@Davy, @earthmover, @revybub, @SarahsKnight, @martymonster

'For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.
When Christ, who is our life, shall appear,
then shall ye also appear with Him in glory.'
(Colossians 3:3-4)

Hello @Dan Perez

I see no reason why I should have to defend a truth that is so obviously Scriptural.
* See 1 Corinthians 15:51; 1 Thessalonians 4:14; 1 Thessalonians 5:10.
The words, 'Awake', or 'Sleep', are figurative of the state of the Living or the dead - in Christ. The word 'Sleep' is never applied to an unbeliever: for the unbeliever does not have the hope of life in Christ Jesus.

The verse quoted (above) has a spiritual application: but it is none the less true, that Christ is our life; and there is no resurrection life apart from Him. Whether living or dead, the believer will be changed on that day of God's choosing: and when Christ Jesus the risen Lord appears in glory, then the church which is His Body shall appear with Him there; until then in God's estimation those who die, in Christ, 'sleep' in Him, until that day of His appearing in glory.

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris