How willing to do the bidding?

[Windmill]

Victor, I am surprised you would think it a great question to ask how realistic it is that the Creator of the universe would ask you to light a match while you believe he would ask Abraham to kill his son.

Lets see now.

I'm sure God will find the final destruction hard as it is, as will we find it hard, I'm sure he's not that heartless.

 

[sentipente]

Lets see now.

I'm sure God will find the final destruction hard as it is, as will we find it hard, I'm sure he's not that heartless.

So, in the end He will do what He really does not want to do. Is that the way you truly see the Creator, as one who is not much better than humans, driven by the vicissitudes of life?

 

[mva1985]

Lets see now.

I'm sure God will find the final destruction hard as it is, as will we find it hard, I'm sure he's not that heartless.

Very true IMO. This is why it is called His "strange act."

 

[sentipente]

Very true IMO. This is why it is called His "strange act."

Please provide the context for this statement so we can be certain it is being properly applied.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

If God were to turn to you and give you the honor of setting the fires of hell to burn the wicked, would you accept that honor?

Yes, it would accept the "honor" (e.g. of the position). But NO, it would not do the ACT.

It would instead do as Moses did ...

Exodus 32:31-32:
31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. 32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
​

And it would gather the rest of the 144,000 who have been prepared by the Spirit of God to do likewise, and at that point God would reveal to those still ignorant (i.e., unknowing -- moriah does not use this word as a pejorative) why the only "free will" in the universe bes His, and how that will bes unwilling that any should perish, and make them to see the sound reason in His actual (not presumptuously reputed) "strange act" (strange = what we do NOT expect) . To wit, that if we expect God to violate the obvious "free will choice" of the wicked to continue to live in order to execute His "justice" (or what the blind leading the blind mistake for it anyway) then surely it makes more sense -- and bes more in keeping with HIS character of Love -- for Him to violate it in a way that causes them to live truly.

In other words, no one CHOOSES to go to hell and be burned up forever. We CLAIM they make that "choice" as a kind of "penalizing default" for the actual choices they have made and do make -- the choice to lead lives of sin and self-serving apart from God -- but that does not mean they CHOOSE to get burned up any more than a toddler running into the street after a ball or a shiny penny CHOOSES to get struck by a car and killed. Yet we then claim that for God to NOT burn them up and destroy them would amount to God "violating" their "free will" somehow (e.g. by presumably making them into robots who live by His will contrary to their own, which bes the only alternative our myopic tunnel vision seems capable of conceiving -- and that would be whose limitation? surely not God's!!) We have put great stock in the notion that "God would never violate human free will" but we do not stop to weigh out the ramifications of this blasted dogma. God would not make a rock too heavy for Himself to lift even if He theoretically can do so. And our ludicrous notions about human "free will" have become that rock, at least for us. We make human "free will" sovereign, the final determining factor of anything, as if Christ had never lived a sinless life, died on the Cross, or been resurrected from the dead to live and make intercession for us.

If God, whom we claim would never ever violate human free will so as to "make" humans love Him and volunteer to serve Him, bes willing at the end to VIOLATE human free will so as to DESTROY those who do not voluntarily love and serve Him, what sense does that make in terms of His character of Love? Would it not be MORE loving, since He intends to totally DISREGARD AND VIOLATE their "free wills" ANYWAY in order to execute His "justice" (as the blind perceive it to be) in DESTROYING them, if He instead RECYCLED them and remade them into what they'd been meant to be from the start had sin never entered the world? What harm could possibly come of that? For starters, they WOULD still be destroyed, because everything they had been -- sinners living lives of sin apart from God -- would be DEAD AND GONE FOR ALL ETERNITY. So the DESTRUCTION being accomplished would NOT be compromised in the SLIGHTEST. And yet, by HIS decree and will, they would LIVE, yet not them, but as Christ living in them, the same as the rest of us who have sought this blessing during these dark days in the 3-d realm.

Whose will continues to reign supreme? God's. His bes truly the only FREE will in the universe, for NONE of us can, by a word or a glance, alter the laws of physics or the laws of function built into the fabric of the universe. Only the table cracking under the sacrifice (Narnia reference, sorry) can cause death to work backwards -- and that table cracks on the cross of Calvary, and it cracks for everyone whether we believe it or not, see it or not, agree with it or not, embrace it or not.

Why humans cannot NOW see this, it cannot say for certain. But it does have a clue ...

2 Cor 3:12-17
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
​

... and it knows that all WILL see it, if not now, then in the day He performs it -- the day EVERY knee shall bow (voluntarily, having been given the grace to do so by Him, as we even now) and EVERY tongue confess (voluntarily, having been given the grace to do so by Him, as we even now) that Jesus Christ bes Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

But if they do not understand this speech, how can they understand His words?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Very true IMO. This is why it is called His "strange act."

You have called it that (you humans). But answer this then: why do you call "strange" that which you expect to happen anyway? Bes not the definition of "strange" that which you do NOT expect?

A truly "strange" act would be to do what runs contrary to majority expectation. If the majority put together expect either eternal conscious torment or eternal utter destruction -- both undeniable violations of human free will, by the way -- what other option does that leave to be considered "strange"?

 

[sentipente]

You have called it that (you humans). But answer this then: why do you call "strange" that which you expect to happen anyway? Bes not the definition of "strange" that which you do NOT expect?

A truly "strange" act would be to do what runs contrary to majority expectation. If the majority put together expect either eternal conscious torment or eternal utter destruction -- both undeniable violations of human free will, by the way -- what other option does that leave to be considered "strange"?

But moderns are too set on vengeance to see such clear reasoning.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

But moderns are too set on vengeance to see such clear reasoning.

Hey if they don't want to join the 144k that bes their loss, not ours.

 

[mva1985]

Yes, it would accept the "honor" (e.g. of the position). But NO, it would not do the ACT.

It would instead do as Moses did ...

Exodus 32:31-32:
31 And Moses returned unto the LORD, and said, Oh, this people have sinned a great sin, and have made them gods of gold. 32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin--; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
​

And it would gather the rest of the 144,000 who have been prepared by the Spirit of God to do likewise, and at that point God would reveal to those still ignorant (i.e., unknowing -- moriah does not use this word as a pejorative) why the only "free will" in the universe bes His, and how that will bes unwilling that any should perish, and make them to see the sound reason in His actual (not presumptuously reputed) "strange act" (strange = what we do NOT expect) . To wit, that if we expect God to violate the obvious "free will choice" of the wicked to continue to live in order to execute His "justice" (or what the blind leading the blind mistake for it anyway) then surely it makes more sense -- and bes more in keeping with HIS character of Love -- for Him to violate it in a way that causes them to live truly.

In other words, no one CHOOSES to go to hell and be burned up forever. We CLAIM they make that "choice" as a kind of "penalizing default" for the actual choices they have made and do make -- the choice to lead lives of sin and self-serving apart from God -- but that does not mean they CHOOSE to get burned up any more than a toddler running into the street after a ball or a shiny penny CHOOSES to get struck by a car and killed. Yet we then claim that for God to NOT burn them up and destroy them would amount to God "violating" their "free will" somehow (e.g. by presumably making them into robots who live by His will contrary to their own, which bes the only alternative our myopic tunnel vision seems capable of conceiving -- and that would be whose limitation? surely not God's!!) We have put great stock in the notion that "God would never violate human free will" but we do not stop to weigh out the ramifications of this blasted dogma. God would not make a rock too heavy for Himself to lift even if He theoretically can do so. And our ludicrous notions about human "free will" have become that rock, at least for us. We make human "free will" sovereign, the final determining factor of anything, as if Christ had never lived a sinless life, died on the Cross, or been resurrected from the dead to live and make intercession for us.

If God, whom we claim would never ever violate human free will so as to "make" humans love Him and volunteer to serve Him, bes willing at the end to VIOLATE human free will so as to DESTROY those who do not voluntarily love and serve Him, what sense does that make in terms of His character of Love? Would it not be MORE loving, since He intends to totally DISREGARD AND VIOLATE their "free wills" ANYWAY in order to execute His "justice" (as the blind perceive it to be) in DESTROYING them, if He instead RECYCLED them and remade them into what they'd been meant to be from the start had sin never entered the world? What harm could possibly come of that? For starters, they WOULD still be destroyed, because everything they had been -- sinners living lives of sin apart from God -- would be DEAD AND GONE FOR ALL ETERNITY. So the DESTRUCTION being accomplished would NOT be compromised in the SLIGHTEST. And yet, by HIS decree and will, they would LIVE, yet not them, but as Christ living in them, the same as the rest of us who have sought this blessing during these dark days in the 3-d realm.

Whose will continues to reign supreme? God's. His bes truly the only FREE will in the universe, for NONE of us can, by a word or a glance, alter the laws of physics or the laws of function built into the fabric of the universe. Only the table cracking under the sacrifice (Narnia reference, sorry) can cause death to work backwards -- and that table cracks on the cross of Calvary, and it cracks for everyone whether we believe it or not, see it or not, agree with it or not, embrace it or not.

Why humans cannot NOW see this, it cannot say for certain. But it does have a clue ...

2 Cor 3:12-17
12 Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: 13 And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:
14 But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.
15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.
​

... and it knows that all WILL see it, if not now, then in the day He performs it -- the day EVERY knee shall bow (voluntarily, having been given the grace to do so by Him, as we even now) and EVERY tongue confess (voluntarily, having been given the grace to do so by Him, as we even now) that Jesus Christ bes Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

But if they do not understand this speech, how can they understand His words?

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.

 

[mva1985]

Perhaps you could explain senti's point to me, as it eludes me.
Abraham has authority over Isaac as his parent.
God didn't ask Isaac to sacrifice Abraham.

Victor

1 Cor. 6:3

Why would we sit in judgment over angels when we were created "a little lower" then them?

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

Isaiah 59:2
But your iniquities have separated you from your God; your sins have hidden his face from you, so that he will not hear.

You offer no explanation as to your use of this scripture, and thus it appears to be entirely arbitrary. Once again, context = everything here. Let's look at Isaiah 59:2 in context with verse ONE setting the stage for it:

1 Behold, the LORD's hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither his ear heavy, that it cannot hear:
2 But your iniquities have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid his face from you, that he will not hear.
​

Moriah's iniquities and sins have not separated it from God's love, and neither have your own. In fact, thanks be to Christ, they cannot do so.

Romans 8:38-39

38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
​

The Bible tells Moriah that nothing can separate her from God's love. You attempt to twist scripture to make it appear to suggest otherwise; shame and untold woe on anyone what attempts to make a fragile and afflicted child afraid of the Father who loves her more than His own life!! You bes mistaken to even attempt this, because God has already shown Moriah the meaning of Isaiah 59:2. It bes the experiential perceptions of the human, not the absolute reality of God. It wrote about this at some length already elsewhere and will supply you with a link so it does not have to repeat itself. Essentially when we sin it changes our perception of God. It does not change God's perception of us. Remember who hid from Whom in Eden -- and Who sought whom.

 

[Moriah_Conquering_Wind]

1 Cor. 6:3

Why would we sit in judgment over angels when we were created "a little lower" then them?

Why would God put anyone in judgment over anyone else who had not experienced the full reproduction of the character of Christ in themselves and been sealed therein by the Holy Spirit? Hint: the full character of Christ can be summed up by the awareness of a love so complete and relentless it bes willing to forego its own existence for all eternity that even one unappreciative, unregenerate, stubborn hard-hearted stiff-necked rebel might live and take His place. If you bes not ready to offer yourself for these angels you look forward to judging, rest assured God will not appoint you to that position until He has brought His work begun in you to its manifest and full telos.

 

[mva1985]

Moriah,

The Bible clearly states that OUR sins separate us from God. God has already done everything He can to reconcile us to Him, but if we do not want it - He will not force it.

As long as we are in Him nothing can separate us from Him.

1 Corinthians clears states that we will judge angels. Period.

 

[VictorC]

1 Cor. 6:3

Why would we sit in judgment over angels when we were created "a little lower" then them?

I certainly didn't get that from Sentipente, but if that's what you think his point was, then we can run with that. The position where we would judge angels appears to have a similar structure of authority that angels destroying mankind during the Day of the Lord. From my earlier posts, you know that I'm looking for documentation from either you or sentipente that shows that angels are the offspring of mankind, and/or the junior has authority over the elder as the norm.

With this new argument you present, I would need you to show me where mankind are the offspring of angels.

None of the issues I have raised have received an answer of any kind.
If you believe you have the authority to light the lake of fire, one of you need to provide some kind of supporting argument. Otherwise, this is all speculation from a total vacuum.

Sentipente, you haven't answered either of the posts I wrote that actually have substance to them - those have been patiently awaiting your attention for several days now. You haven't offered any opinion concerning how likely your proposed scenario is, either.

I don't mind tossing around hypothetical ideas, but neither of you have actually contributed substance that I would care to either question or agree with. This thread doesn't have a promising future.

Victor

 

[mva1985]

I'm not in the business of defending Senti. I just happen to agree with him on this one point.

We are not the offspring of angels nor are they the offspring of mankind. Angels and mankind are a creation of God. But the Bible clearly says that we will judge them. And the Bible also says that we were created a little lower then the angels. So we are their junior in a sense.

I certainly didn't get that from Sentipente, but if that's what you think his point was, then we can run with that. The position where we would judge angels appears to have a similar structure of authority that angels destroying mankind during the Day of the Lord. From my earlier posts, you know that I'm looking for documentation from either you or sentipente that shows that angels are the offspring of mankind, and/or the junior has authority over the elder as the norm.

With this new argument you present, I would need you to show me where mankind are the offspring of angels.

None of the issues I have raised have received an answer of any kind.
If you believe you have the authority to light the lake of fire, one of you need to provide some kind of supporting argument. Otherwise, this is all speculation from a total vacuum.

Sentipente, you haven't answered either of the posts I wrote that actually have substance to them - those have been patiently awaiting your attention for several days now. You haven't offered any opinion concerning how likely your proposed scenario is, either.

I don't mind tossing around hypothetical ideas, but neither of you have actually contributed substance that I would care to either question or agree with. This thread doesn't have a promising future.

Victor

 

[Windmill]

So, in the end He will do what He really does not want to do. Is that the way you truly see the Creator, as one who is not much better than humans, driven by the vicissitudes of life?

Now heres where we start throwing God into a box.

Yeah. God won't like to do it, I betcha. Why? Because God is Jesus, right? And look how Jesus felt. He didn't like it when people were lost, and he was sad, but he had to move on.

Now so I think then its pretty obvious. Considering he loves everyone, its going to hurt him to sort of destroy everyone.

So then, if this is the case, then one goes to the next conclusion- then he can't care that much right? If he'll kill everyone, right?

Right? No, wrong.

We hardly know anything about sin. It is the vaugest concept really, isn't it? So is morality, why are things good and bad? Did God just decide it? Does that mean he decides morality? Maybe, or maybe not. We don't know. We don't know why or how morality exists. We don't know why the wages of sin is death. We don't know who decided it. Do we now? Not really.

And even if he was actually what we'd call a dictator, why should we care? Thats besides the point.

The point is, its extremely unlikely that he would ask us to set fire to everyone, considering the nature of Jesus, and considering how we'd obviously feel.

 

[sentipente]

The point is, its extremely unlikely that he would ask us to set fire to everyone, considering the nature of Jesus, and considering how we'd obviously feel.

Think of what you are really saying. Don't get bogged down with the idea of us being asked to set the fires of hell. This is incidental. You seem to believe that Jesus is considerate enough of our feelings not to ask us to set the fires of the hell we believe in but He is not considerate enough of our feelings that He would not set the fires Himself. I hope that does not make sense to you. You speak of placing God in a box yet you don't realize that this is what we have done with our doctrine of hell. We assume that we are correct and cut God to suit it.

 

[sentipente]

I'm not in the business of defending Senti. I just happen to agree with him on this one point.

We are not the offspring of angels nor are they the offspring of mankind. Angels and mankind are a creation of God. But the Bible clearly says that we will judge them. And the Bible also says that we were created a little lower then the angels. So we are their junior in a sense.

The Bible actually says that we were made a little lower than God. I think we need to consider how beholden we are to the doctrines we believe. Even though we have already discussed this idea in other threads this truth has not been able to dislodge our belief that we are lower than the angels. Doctrine has replaced truth.

 

[VictorC]

I'm not in the business of defending Senti. I just happen to agree with him on this one point.

We are not the offspring of angels nor are they the offspring of mankind. Angels and mankind are a creation of God. But the Bible clearly says that we will judge them. And the Bible also says that we were created a little lower then the angels. So we are their junior in a sense.

Psalm 8:5 tells us that we were made a little lower than Elohim, that is, God Himself.
We don't have any relation to the malak elohim, that is, the angels of God, as we're distinctly separate lines of creation.
I don't think there's any support to be found there.

Victor

 

[VictorC]

The Bible actually says that we were made a little lower than God.

Agreed, and that is my accepted position as well.
There are a couple of posts that have sat, patiently waiting for your attention:
delegated to mere mortals?
you want others to deal with the topic you aren't willing to face yourself

My time is going to be prioritized elsewhere, so it may take me some time to return to answer posts.

Victor