How were people before the time of Jesus saved?

[1stcenturylady]

Yeah that's two of the ten commandments...but can you show this is the case for each one of the commandments?

Read Deuteronomy 22 also. Here is one on honoring your father and mother.

20 “But if the thing is true, and evidences of virginity are not found for the young woman, 21 then they shall bring out the young woman to the door of her father’s house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death with stones, because she has done a disgraceful thing in Israel, to play the harlot in her father’s house. So you shall put away the evil from among you.

 

[ewq1938]

I just added covet and stealing. I'm sure you can think of others if you are familiar with the Old Testament.

Stealing wasn't a death sentence...usually they had to pay it back, or double or be sold into slavery but that's not the same as Adultery or breaking the Sabbath.

 

[ewq1938]

Read Deuteronomy 22 also. Here is one on honoring your father and mother.

That's fornication not an issue of not honoring your mother or father.

 

[1stcenturylady]

That's fornication not an issue of not honoring your mother or father.

God does see differences in sin. That is why there were sacrifices for some things, and no sacrifices for others. Look at David. David's life wasn't taken by God for his sin with Bathsheba, but death did happen - his child.

 

[1stcenturylady]

That's fornication not an issue of not honoring your mother or father.

The scripture mentioned playing the harlot in his father's house, not just playing the harlot. There is more than one thing going on here. She brought shame to his house.

 

[ewq1938]

The scripture mentioned playing the harlot in his father's house, not just playing the harlot. There is more than one thing going on here. She brought shame to his house.

Any sin will do that but this sin is specifically fornication related. Look at stealing, it can bring shame to parents also but it didn't carry the death sentence.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Any sin will do that but this sin is specifically fornication related.

I believe it is both, and there was a REASON for the father's house to be mentioned.

Good night.

 

[ewq1938]

I believe it is both, and there was a REASON for the father's house to be mentioned.

Good night.

Goodnight

So, why was she stoned? For fornication or for not honoring her parents? Is there an example not involving fornication where the person brought shame to their parents and were killed because of the shame brought upon them?

 

[Danthemailman]

Not in the passage I have been discussing. He spoke of the commandments of the old covenant law.

Mat 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
Mat 19:17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
Mat 19:18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
Mat 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

Some may argue this is law, not grace. Jesus showed the rich young man how short he falls of keeping the first commandment (Exodus 20:3) which is the first of the two great commandments (Deuteronomy 6:5; Matthew 22:37). The rich young ruler confidently and (self righteously) declared that he has kept the commandments from his youth up and qualified for heaven under those terms. Yet Jesus knew the man's wealth had become his idolatrous god, which kept him from believing in Jesus (John 3:16).

The rich young man missed the point that Jesus was making, failed to place his faith in Jesus for salvation, and continued instead to trust in his riches (vs. 21-23). His face fell and he went away sad because he could not part from his great wealth, not even in exchange for eternal life. If keeping the commandments is the basis by which we receive eternal life, then why isn't this remark the pattern for all discussions concerning eternal life? Paul would have said to the jailer who asked, "what must I do to be saved?" by replying in Acts 16:31 - "keep the commandments and you will be saved," yet that's not what Paul said.

Jesus knows the hearts of all men and responds to each individual a little differently because He knows where their need is. He didn't respond to the woman at the well, or to Nicodemus or to the rich young ruler the same way, yet the consistent pattern in scripture is salvation by grace through faith, not works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Philippians 3:9).

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

Yeah I thought this is how this discussion was going to go.

Discussion? You suggested Hebrews is not a NT book? That is not even up for discussion.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Goodnight

So, why was she stoned? For fornication or for not honoring her parents? Is there an example not involving fornication where the person brought shame to their parents and were killed because of the shame brought upon them?

22 You shall have the same law for the stranger and for one from your own country; for I am the Lord your God.’ ”

23 Then Moses spoke to the children of Israel; and they took outside the camp him who had cursed, and stoned him with stones. So the children of Israel did as the Lord commanded Moses.

Leviticus 20:8-10
8 And you shall keep My statutes, and perform them: I am the Lord who sanctifies you.

9 ‘For everyone who curses his father or his mother shall surely be put to death. He has cursed his father or his mother. His blood shall be upon him.


10 ‘The man who commits adultery with another man’s wife, he who commits adultery with his neighbor’s wife, the adulterer and the adulteress, shall surely be put to death.


I remember another one where a child would not obey his parents so they took him to the elders and they took the child or teenager outside the gates and stoned him, but I can't find it just now. I need coffee!

edit: Found it.

Deuteronomy 21:18
18 “If a man has a stubborn and rebellious son who will not obey the voice of his father or the voice of his mother, and who, when they have chastened him, will not heed them, 19 then his father and his mother shall take hold of him and bring him out to the elders of his city, to the gate of his city. 20 And they shall say to the elders of his city, ‘This son of ours is stubborn and rebellious; he will not obey our voice; he is a glutton and a drunkard.’ 21 Then all the men of his city shall stone him to death with stones; so you shall put away the evil from among you, and all Israel shall hear and fear.

Zechariah 5:4 “I will send out the curse,” says the Lord of hosts; “It shall enter the house of the thief And the house of the one who swears falsely by My name. It shall remain in the midst of his house And consume it, with its timber and stones.”

Exodus 22:1
[ Responsibility for Property ] “If a man steals an ox or a sheep, and slaughters it or sells it, he shall restore five oxen for an ox and four sheep for a sheep.

I was thinking about this last one, why they were not stoned. I think it was for the sake of the victim. What good would it be for the victim if his property wasn't restored. And what incentive would it be for the caught thief to restore someone's property only to die.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I have heard it be said that the people before the time of Jesus were saved by faith in the saviour who was to come, but I don't know.

Did someone like Abel knew to trust in the saviour to come? Did the OT-people knew to trust in the saviour for salvation? Is there even one verse in the OT that says that salvation comes from trusting in a future saviour? Aren't OT more about keeping the Laws and following God?

I know there are a lot of prophecies in the OT about Jesus, still did the people understand these prophecies? Didn't even the Jews believe that Christ was going to be an earthly ruler?

They were saved by believing and devotion to serving God. Very similar to the way we are saved today. Abraham was counted as being righteous when he believed and was shown to be righteous by his works. Abraham was not counted as being righteous by obeying the law. He was counted as righteous before he was circumcised.

 

[1stcenturylady]

They were saved by believing and devotion to serving God. Very similar to the way we are saved today. Abraham was counted as being righteous when he believed and was shown to be righteous by his works. Abraham was not counted as being righteous by obeying the law. He was counted as righteous before he was circumcised.

One point you are missing. Abraham believed and obeyed the voice of God to him.

 

[BNR32FAN]

One point you are missing. Abraham believed and obeyed the voice of God to him.

Yes he was a devoted servant of God.

 

[Danthemailman]

They were saved by believing and devotion to serving God. Very similar to the way we are saved today. Abraham was counted as being righteous when he believed and was shown to be righteous by his works. Abraham was not counted as being righteous by obeying the law. He was counted as righteous before he was circumcised.

Amen! Romans 4:9 - Does this blessedness then come upon the circumcised only, or upon the uncircumcised also? For we say that faith was accounted to Abraham for righteousness. 10 How then was it accounted? While he was circumcised, or uncircumcised? Not while circumcised, but while uncircumcised. 11 And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had while still uncircumcised, that he might be the father of all those who believe, though they are uncircumcised, that righteousness might be imputed to them also.

In James 2:21, we notice closely that James does not say that Abraham's work of offering up Isaac resulted in God's accounting Abraham as righteous. The accounting of Abraham's faith as righteousness was made in Genesis 15:6, many years before his work of offering up Isaac on the altar recorded in Genesis 22. The work of Abraham did not have some kind of intrinsic merit to account him as righteous, but it showed or manifested the genuineness of his faith. This is the sense in which Abraham was "justified by works." He was "shown to be righteous."

James is not using the word "justified" to mean "accounted as righteous" but is "shown to be righteous." James is discussing the proof/evidence of faith (says-claims to have faith but has no works/I will show you my faith by my works - James 2:14-18), not the initial act of being accounted as righteous with God (Romans 4:2-3).

When Abraham performed the good work in Genesis 22; he fulfilled the expectations created by the pronouncement of his faith in Genesis 15:6.

 

[1stcenturylady]

Yes he was a devoted servant of God.

Yes, I agree with you. But there are many who look at "imputed righteousness" as 'we remain unrighteous, and righteousness is just imputed to us' like the coat of the prodigal son over filthiness. It sounds very religious to say Jesus does it all, and He does, but is actually very sacrilegious to believe Jesus just leaves us powerless, that the all-powerful Spirit He gives us doesn't do anything to change us from the inside out.

1 John 3:
7 Little children, let no one deceive you. He who practices righteousness is righteous, just as He is righteous. 8 He who sins is of the devil, for the devil has sinned from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that He might destroy the works of the devil. 9 Whoever has been born of God does not sin, for His seed remains in him; and he cannot sin, because he has been born of God.

 

[1stcenturylady]

@ewq1938

Proverbs 6:30
People do not despise a thief If he steals to satisfy himself when he is starving.

 

[1stcenturylady]

..

 

[ewq1938]

Discussion? You suggested Hebrews is not a NT book? That is not even up for discussion.

I didn't say Hebrews is not a NT book.

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

I didn't say Hebrews is not a NT book.

Hebrews is written to professed NT. believers who were in danger of apostasy, desiring to go back under the OT.
you said this; in post 147
Hebrews was written under a different covenant.