How tolerant are you of other religions?

[Palatka44]

If they're truly concerned about the well-being of these women, why were thy not able to care for themselves? You have to admit, that's a pretty convenient arrangement.

I did not know that the concern for women was such a strong emphasis in this religion. Instead of conquering their own desires, they wrap women up in shrouds and outlaw lipstick.

It is also reported that in Islamic culture a woman can be executed by her husband without due process of law if he felt that she had wronged him in any way. So much for carring. If I am wrong please enlighten me.

 

[peaceful soul]

Yours is not the inclusive religion. Yours is exclusive by definition. An inclusive "religion" would save souls by imputing righteousness in order to save those who have none.

But then it wouldn't be much of a religion, would it?

Heh.

Rad

Good point. We can say that all religions are then exclusive. At the expense of including others, it, by default, excludes many others.

Wouldn't you say that is true?

 

[peaceful soul]

God has never tolerated any thing that He did not institute.

very true

 

[mo.mentum]

If they're truly concerned about the well-being of these women, why were thy not able to care for themselves? You have to admit, that's a pretty convenient arrangement.

Ummm as i said, widows, single parents. Muslims were being persecuted and killed, others were dying on the battlefield defending their newly born nation.

Must understand that the FAMILY is the base of society in Islam. Not the individual like in Capitalist societies, or the society as a whole as in Communism. Anything that threatens the family structure is prohibited. Men were encouraged to help out the widows by providing for them. In order to prevent illegal sexual behaviour, marriage had to be in place.

I did not know that the concern for women was such a strong emphasis in this religion. Instead of conquering their own desires, they wrap women up in shrouds and outlaw lipstick.

First. You must realize that such extreme limits on women only happen in 3-4 Muslims countries out of the 53 Muslim countries of the world. So please don't generalize.

Second. In countries where they're not forced to wear the "Hijab", women wear it willingly. It's a duty to God, not to men or their husbands! Muslims in the West still wear the Hijab even when they're not obliged. Don't nuns wear a head cover?

And, most women who cover themselves use a loose scarf over their hair and make sure nothing above their knees and wrists show. This is called "being modest", instead of dressing like a harlot.

Third. The Hijab is seen as liberation for women, not oppression (at least in the 50 countries where it's not forced). It equalizes the playing field between men and women. Women are no longer seen as sexual commodities or objects, nor are they hired for their looks but for their capabilities!

 

[mo.mentum]

It is also reported that in Islamic culture a woman can be executed by her husband without due process of law if he felt that she had wronged him in any way. So much for carring. If I am wrong please enlighten me.

Let me enlighten you

Any act of adultery must be reported by 4 eye-witnesses in order to be admissable in court. The woman has as much right over her husband as he has over her. When there aren't 4 witnesses, then the accusor and accused have to be witnesses to themselves, and God will Judge in the End who is lying and who isn't.

And those of your women who commit illegal sexual intercourse, take the evidence of four witnesses from amongst you against them; and if they testify, confine them (i.e. women) to houses until death comes to them or God ordains for them some (other) way. (4:15)

See, with the complete submission to God, a Muslim (one who submits to God) has no escape from Justice. Even if a man accuses his wife and she gets wrongfully convicted, God will know the truth of the matter and punish the man for his lies. Muslims see this life as a quick transit, so punishment is just around the corner. Fear God and speak Truth, it is better for you.

And among His Signs is this, that He created for you mates from among yourselves, that ye may dwell in tranquillity with them, and He has put love and mercy between your (hearts): verily in that are Signs for those who reflect (30:21)

The biggest misconception about Islam is that it oppresses women, when in fact, it's the traditional cultures of the people who adopted Islam that is at fault. Islam is the liberator of women. Women have their rights over men too you know. I'm sure if you ask female Muslim converts, they will share the same thoughts. I've spoken to a few. Very open minded women!

O mankind! Be dutiful to your Lord, Who created you from a single person (Adam), and from him (Adam) He created his wife (Eve), and from them both He created many men and women. And fear God through Whom you demand your mutual rights (men of women, women of men), and (do not cut the relations of) the wombs (kinship). Surely, God is Ever a ­Watcher over you (4:1)

 

[Mephster]

mo.mentum...

Feminist issues etc. rarely interest me, though I did take a graduate level course in Feminist Philosophy once upon a time...... however I have some questions concerning the hijab (etc.)

1. Is it true (as I think it is) that it is the woman's free choice to wear it?

2. Isn't there a debate/discussion regarding the Qur'anic verse: was the wearing of veils for ALL women of ALL times OR was it just for the women nearest/family of/surrounding the Prophet?

3. Isn't there a requisite of two female witnesses (for some oaths, laws, trials) whereas there is only one male testimony necessary?


Thanks,
Meph

 

[mo.mentum]

1. Is it true (as I think it is) that it is the woman's free choice to wear it?

I started to reply to all three of your questions but towards the end i felt i was missing something. So I went ahead and did a search for a fuller answer and ended up landing on a helpful site that answers all your questions very well and goes further into explaining the position of Women as stated in the Qur'an.

It's a good read. I highly recommend it for people who want to know more about Women and Islam. There are about 15 different issues at the top of the page that you can explore, they range from "the fault of Eve" to "Education" to "Polygamy" and "the Veil"

http://www.islamicity.com/mosque/w_islam/intro.htm

Enjoy!

 

[radorth]

Re: Peaceful S

Good point. We can say that all religions are then exclusive. At the expense of including others, it, by default, excludes many others.

Wouldn't you say that is true?

It is generally true. I think my point relates to the inability of religion to save or atone for those who have no good works- i.e. the thief to whom Jesus imputed righteousness for calling Jesus "Lord" on the day of his death. No other religion or philosophy has such authority, nor have they any means to mitigate God's righteous judgement.

Rad

 

[radorth]

And men were encouraged to have several wives at the time because many of the women were widows and couldn't support themselves,

I thought they had equality with men. Guess not.

At least Muhammed did say not to "beat them excessively or abandon them except at home." (Hadith 7.62.77)

Rad

 

[mo.mentum]

I thought they had equality with men. Guess not.

Pray tell, how does helping widowed women support themselves and their children remove of their equality? This is social responsibility and mutual help at work.

Would you rather they turned tricks in the redlight district?

 

[tcampen]

I don't think one can call a faith "inclusive" by stating that it is inclusive because it accepts anyone at all - just so long as you abandon every belief except what we say is ok.

"Inclusive" means accepting that others can believe something different and still not be condemned for it just because it is different. This is "exclusive" for it excludes all people whose beliefs differ from their own.

This is "exclusive" type of Christianity is kind which most Christains seem to profess in these forums. However, very large numbers of Christians do not share this opinion.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

I don't think one can call a faith "inclusive" by stating that it is inclusive because it accepts anyone at all - just so long as you abandon every belief except what we say is ok.

"Inclusive" means accepting that others can believe something different and still not be condemned for it just because it is different. This is "exclusive" for it excludes all people whose beliefs differ from their own.

This is "exclusive" type of Christianity is kind which most Christains seem to profess in these forums. However, very large numbers of Christians do not share this opinion.

God doesn't twist truth to make it more pleasing to human beings. THis greatly overestimates our importance.

 

[Havoc]

Would that be your claim of truth? Since we don't really know what God says on the subject, only what some people claim he says.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Would that be your claim of truth? Since we don't really know what God says on the subject, only what some people claim he says.

All depends on what you're willing to do in order to find out if it's the truth or not.

 

[vajradhara]

God doesn't twist truth to make it more pleasing to human beings. THis greatly overestimates our importance.

Namaste whitehorse,

well.. i'd imagine that we are pretty important to God... why else would He have had Jesus as a sacrifice for us all? That seems to indicate a relative level of import that isn't found amongst God's other creations... indeed, it's even stated that we are created in God's own image... a unique attribute of humans, i might add.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

Namaste whitehorse,

well.. i'd imagine that we are pretty important to God... why else would He have had Jesus as a sacrifice for us all? That seems to indicate a relative level of import that isn't found amongst God's other creations... indeed, it's even stated that we are created in God's own image... a unique attribute of humans, i might add.

Absolutely. We are very important to Him, as a manifestation of His great mercy and love. Another attribute of God, is His truth. He doesn't change reality to fit our desires. We don't have the power to create reality with our wishes. I would love for everyone in the world to be happy. But my wishing it or believing it doesn't make it so.

God is very able to bestow honor upon us, according to His choosing. But we are not permitted to snatch it from His hands, and unforunately that happens so often.

It's like the human world in that sense. A king may invite the one he wishes to dine with him at his table. But if just anyone walks in, he wil be thrown out.

Blessings to you.

 

[tcampen]

God doesn't twist truth to make it more pleasing to human beings.

No, you're correct. All the twisting regarding god is done by humans. The problem is that you're doing just as much twisting as the next person. You are no more exempt from that reality than I or anyone else.

 

[TheOriginalWhitehorse]

No, you're correct. All the twisting regarding god is done by humans. The problem is that you're doing just as much twisting as the next person. You are no more exempt from that reality than I or anyone else.

And what is the basis for this claim? Where have I twisted anything? Another projection?

 

[vajradhara]

Absolutely. We are very important to Him, as a manifestation of His great mercy and love. Another attribute of God, is His truth. He doesn't change reality to fit our desires. We don't have the power to create reality with our wishes. I would love for everyone in the world to be happy. But my wishing it or believing it doesn't make it so.

God is very able to bestow honor upon us, according to His choosing. But we are not permitted to snatch it from His hands, and unforunately that happens so often.

It's like the human world in that sense. A king may invite the one he wishes to dine with him at his table. But if just anyone walks in, he wil be thrown out.

Blessings to you.

Namaste whitehorse..

is there a definitive list of God's attributes? i.e. God can only be these attributes and nothing more or less?

though i doubt that humans could snatch anything from God... that seems an emotional argument rather than a rational one, wouldn't you agree?

 

[tcampen]

And what is the basis for this claim? Where have I twisted anything? Another projection?

Deductive logic. You interpretation of god is either absolutely correct, or it is not. For you to be so correct, all other humans that on the planet that have ever existed would have to be less correct, which includes all your fellow Christians. Because I find it utterly improbable you are such a perfect being with a perfect interpretation of god - regardless of what sources you rely on - that you cannot be absoutely correct.

Since you are not absolutely correct, the next question is how incorrect are you, and what precisely are you incorrect about? This is where the questions become much more difficult. But what do we know? First, there is disagreement within christianity itself over issues that range from trivial to material. Material issues include the method for attaining salvation, for example, or whether christianity is the only religion that offers a path to heaven, or the inerrancy of the Bible. The range in the belief of what God's will is is manifested in more than 1,200 different Christian denominations and countless more independent churches in America alone. Clearly God's will is not so clear, or such diversity would not be nearly so widespread.

So who among these various belief systems within christianity are more right, and where do you fall in this continuum of correctness? Are you going to be the judge on who is more right, and who's more wrongt on these issues? Are you going to claim that it's not really YOUR judgement, but what God says - while all those others who disagree with your views claim the exact same authority? See the conundrum here? And we haven't even gotten to the Jews, Muslims or the rest of the world's religions yet.

There is NO objective criteria to evaluate who is more correct in there view of god, as there is with other analyzing other, less subjective topics, such as whether a particular drug is effective battling depression, whether needle exchanges affects HIV infection rates, or whether the moon is made of cheese. See what I mean?

While there are some interesting, even sophisticated, arguments used to support one's own religious views, ultimate it is based on one's personal faith and spiritualty. So, until some generally accepted, proven means for accurately determining God's will can be objectively recognized by all reasonable and informed people, we have no means of determining who has a better insight into god's will than everyone else. And this has not happened.

Therefore, your interpretations of god must be considered just as twisted as anyone else, unless you can objectively prove otherwise.

(and sorry, that's not projection.)