How to "Succeed" as a Young Christian?

[Tetra]

@DamianWarS made a post about how our culture should operate when it comes to young men and women, and I thought it was excellent. It can be found here:
Should I wait till marriage?

While I like the post above, unless there was a complete upheaval of western culture, it's not going to happen.

So if you were to pose the question, as a young person who is a Christian in western culture, how can I become well educated, financially stable, and successful?

To me the answer is very clear:

• Avoid any romantic relationships (especially true if you're a man)
• Graduate high school
• Graduate university in a program that corresponds to a well paying job (avoid the arts)
• Establish a well paying career
• Get married to someone of equal success and direction (OR not at all if you're a man)
• Get a prenup if the person is not of equal success and direction
• Do not have kids

On average, I would say in this culture and economy, following these "rules" will lead to the best outcome. You might think, well I didn't do any of this and I'm doing well, sure, but it's a different time now. Where I live near Toronto the average home is 1/2 a mil, the cost of education, and living expenses is nuts.

What are your thoughts CF?

Tetra

 

[SkyWriting]

So if you were to pose the question, as a young person who is a Christian in western culture, how can I become well educated, financially stable, and successful?

To me the answer is very clear:

• Avoid any romantic relationships (especially true if you're a man)
• Graduate high school
• Graduate university in a program that corresponds to a well paying job (avoid the arts)
• Establish a well paying career
• Get married to someone of equal success and direction (OR not at all if you're a man)
• Do not have kids

On average, I would say in this culture and economy, following these "rules" will lead to the best outcome. You might think, well I didn't do any of this and I'm doing well, sure, but it's a different time now. Where I live near Toronto the average home is 1/2 a mil, the cost of education, and living expenses is nuts.

What are your thoughts CF?

Tetra

Ask God for His will to be worked in your life and your life will be far more joyful knowing that you are welcoming to God's destiny.
Who Else Want's Their Destiny Answered, Well Before You Pray?
The outcome will not change, but your peace with it will.

What Does the Bible Say About Gods Peace?

 

[DamianWarS]

@DamianWarS made a post about how our culture should operate when it comes to young men and women, and I thought it was excellent. It can be found here:
Should I wait till marriage?

While I like the post above, unless there was a complete upheaval of western culture, it's not going to happen.

So if you were to pose the question, as a young person who is a Christian in western culture, how can I become well educated, financially stable, and successful?

To me the answer is very clear:

• Avoid any romantic relationships (especially true if you're a man)
• Graduate high school
• Graduate university in a program that corresponds to a well paying job (avoid the arts)
• Establish a well paying career
• Get married to someone of equal success and direction (OR not at all if you're a man)
• Do not have kids

On average, I would say in this culture and economy, following these "rules" will lead to the best outcome. You might think, well I didn't do any of this and I'm doing well, sure, but it's a different time now. Where I live near Toronto the average home is 1/2 a mil, the cost of education, and living expenses is nuts.

What are your thoughts CF?

Tetra

Where is the part where you give glory to God?

 

[Tetra]

Where is the part where you give glory to God?

You should be doing that in all things, so that goes without saying.

 

[A_Thinker]

@DamianWarS made a post about how our culture should operate when it comes to young men and women, and I thought it was excellent. It can be found here:
Should I wait till marriage?

While I like the post above, unless there was a complete upheaval of western culture, it's not going to happen.

So if you were to pose the question, as a young person who is a Christian in western culture, how can I become well educated, financially stable, and successful?

To me the answer is very clear:

• Avoid any romantic relationships (especially true if you're a man)
• Graduate high school
• Graduate university in a program that corresponds to a well paying job (avoid the arts)
• Establish a well paying career
• Get married to someone of equal success and direction (OR not at all if you're a man)
• Get a prenup if the person is not of equal success and direction
• Do not have kids

On average, I would say in this culture and economy, following these "rules" will lead to the best outcome. You might think, well I didn't do any of this and I'm doing well, sure, but it's a different time now. Where I live near Toronto the average home is 1/2 a mil, the cost of education, and living expenses is nuts.

What are your thoughts CF?

Tetra

Do the RIGHT THING(s)
Stay connected with God
Serve God
Follow God's guidance as to marriage, kids, etc.
Practice LOVE toward your neighbor
Work Hard
Pay your bills
Live well within your means
Be committed

 

[2PhiloVoid]

@DamianWarS made a post about how our culture should operate when it comes to young men and women, and I thought it was excellent. It can be found here:
Should I wait till marriage?

While I like the post above, unless there was a complete upheaval of western culture, it's not going to happen.

So if you were to pose the question, as a young person who is a Christian in western culture, how can I become well educated, financially stable, and successful?

To me the answer is very clear:

• Avoid any relationships (especially true if you're a man)
• Graduate high school
• Graduate university in a program that corresponds to a well paying job (avoid the arts)
• Establish a well paying career
• Get married to someone of equal success and direction (OR not at all if you're a man)
• Do not have kids

On average, I would say in this culture and economy, following these "rules" will lead to the best outcome. You might think, well I didn't do any of this and I'm doing well, sure, but it's a different time now. Where I live near Toronto the average home is 1/2 a mil, the cost of education, and living expenses is nuts.

What are your thoughts CF?

Tetra

My thought on this? My thoughts are that the philosophical and social assumptions underwriting our modern Western culture AND the materialist, market economy it perpetuates......IS a part of the problem.

No one should have to 'avoid' relationships at all cost(s) until and unless certain economic attainments are had. No, no one who would like to find a life spouse should have to avoid marriage unless they can 'realize' their so-called need to go to college and actually graduate with a degree. No, no one should have to 'obtain' what is otherwise only and specifically a "well paying career"------as if there were really enough of those to go around if people would just harness their potential, because there's not! And there will be less in the future.

It shouldn't in all necessity come down to our questioning whether or not we should be or could be married if, and only if, we find someone who is "of equal success and direction," nor should marriage be avoided along with the usual attempts to have children.

No, the reason we find ourselves in this social quandry today is because we all have been ethically, morally, and religiously emasculated by Enlightenment assumptions that don't hold water for more than 5 minutes and which have fragmented our notions about moral duties to our families.

And whose fault is all of this? God's? No! I honestly don't think He's the one who's insisted that everyone just wait it out indefinitely, no matter what and no matter how long it takes until a person---------and here's the 'trick'-------gets himself or herself all financially situated so as to be autonomous and individually sufficient through individual enterprise, apart from anything one's family might provide.

The upshot in all of this is that we do all of this to ourselves. Why? Because our social philosophies which we've often imbibed deprive us of love for one another. As it has been alluded to before somewhere else, we might say that "our love for one another has grown cold." So, now we act and react in our intimate relations out of desperation and confusion rather than by way of Christian social principles. Parents refuse to act as parents in a communitarian fashion, and children refuse to abide by communitarian principles in cooperation with their parents. So........................................here we are, each often going it "alone" in confusion and desperation. Oh for joy!

 

[Tetra]

Do the RIGHT THING(s)
Stay connected with God
Serve God
Follow God's guidance as to marriage, kids, etc.
Practice LOVE toward your neighbor
Work Hard
Pay your bills
Live well within your means
Be committed

If someone chooses to get married, ours views are not in opposition. No argument form me.

 

[DamianWarS]

You should be doing that in all things, so that goes without saying.

Yet you didn't say it. The values I pulled out of the OP was how to be successful in western culture with as much money as possible with measurable milestones of things like houses starting a 1/2 Mil.

Western culture has its own direction and we (christians) don't control it but that doesn't mean we need to base our worth and successes on its values. Forget about that plan and serve Christ with everything you got, die poor or rich but do so to give him glory from the onset.

How does your plan align with the prime focus of giving God glory and spreading his message so that others may glorify his name too? Because that's the plan, everything else is just the platform we do it on.

 

[Tree of Life]

@DamianWarS made a post about how our culture should operate when it comes to young men and women, and I thought it was excellent. It can be found here:
Should I wait till marriage?

While I like the post above, unless there was a complete upheaval of western culture, it's not going to happen.

So if you were to pose the question, as a young person who is a Christian in western culture, how can I become well educated, financially stable, and successful?

To me the answer is very clear:

• Avoid any romantic relationships (especially true if you're a man)
• Graduate high school
• Graduate university in a program that corresponds to a well paying job (avoid the arts)
• Establish a well paying career
• Get married to someone of equal success and direction (OR not at all if you're a man)
• Get a prenup if the person is not of equal success and direction
• Do not have kids

On average, I would say in this culture and economy, following these "rules" will lead to the best outcome. You might think, well I didn't do any of this and I'm doing well, sure, but it's a different time now. Where I live near Toronto the average home is 1/2 a mil, the cost of education, and living expenses is nuts.

What are your thoughts CF?

Tetra

These bullet points may yield financial stability (but even that is not guaranteed), and they may yield an education in an academic sense. But I question whether we should count this as "success". If you define "success" in terms of financial stability, then fine. But I wonder if people who are merely financially stable feel as though their lives are successful and meaningful. The Bible defines success in life in very different terms.

 

[Tetra]

My thought on this? My thoughts are that the philosophical and social assumptions underwriting our modern Western culture AND the materialist, market economy it perpetuates......IS a part of the problem.

No one should have to 'avoid' relationships at all costs unless certain economic attainments are had. No one who would like to find a life spouse should have to avoid marriage unless they 'realize' they need to go to college and actually graduate with a degree. No one should have to 'obtain' what is otherwise only and specifically a "well paying career"------as if there were really enough of those to go around if people would just harness their potential, because there's not! And there will be less in the future.

It shouldn't in all necessity come down to our questioning whether or not we should be or could be married if, and only if, we find someone who is "of equal success and direction," nor should marriage be avoided along with the usual attempts to have children.

No, the reason we find ourselves in this social quandry today is because we all have been ethically, morally, and religiously emasculated by Enlightenment assumptions that don't hold water for more than 5 minutes and which have fragmented our notions about moral duties to our families.

And whose fault is all of this? God's? No! I honestly don't think He's the one who's insisted that everyone just wait it out indefinitely, no matter what and no matter how long it takes until a person---------and here's the 'trick'-------gets himself or herself all financially situated so as to be autonomous and individually sufficient through individual enterprise, apart from anything one's family might provide.

The upshot in all of this is that we do all of this do ourselves. Why? Because our social philosophies which we've often imbibed deprive us of love for one another. As it has been alluded to before somewhere else, we might say that "our love for one another has grown cold." So, now we act and react in our intimate relations out of desperation and confusion rather than by way of Christian social principles. Parents refuse to act as parents in a communitarian fashion, and children refuse to abide by communitarian principles in cooperation with their parents. So........................................here we are, each often going it "alone" in confusion and desperation. Oh for joy!

Philo, you and I agree. I mean, I started my post really liking the ideal situation layed out by @DamianWarS.

However, do you think this is going to change in our kids lifetime, or the next?

Damian's post promoted me to think, given the current economic and cultural situation, how can we not only survive, but thrive economically, socially etc. When my son asks, "Dad how can I thrive in this economy?" what do you think is the answer? I think what I proposed is fair.

 

[Tetra]

These bullet points may yield financial stability (but even that is not guaranteed), and they may yield an education in an academic sense. But I question whether we should count this as "success". If you define "success" in terms of financial stability, then fine. But I wonder if people who are merely financially stable feel as though their lives are successful and meaningful. The Bible defines success in life in very different terms.

This is why I posted "success" in quotes. I realize it's subjective. No argument there.

I would never suggest anyone focus merely (as you wrote) on financial stability.

 

[Tetra]

Yet you didn't say it. The values I pulled out of the OP was how to be successful in western culture with as much money as possible with measurable milestones of things like houses starting a 1/2 Mil.

Western culture has its own direction and we (christians) don't control it but that doesn't mean we need to base our worth and successes on its values. Forget about that plan and serve Christ with everything you got, die poor or rich but do so to give him glory from the onset.

How does your plan align with the prime focus of giving God glory and spreading his message so that others may glorify his name too? Because that's the plan, everything else is just the platform we do it on.

Well, I just don't see these things as mutually exclusive. I can literally do everything I posted in the OP, and give glory to Christ and His plan.

I can focus hard on school, get straight A's AND share the word. I can have a well paying career, and go and make disciples of all the nations.

I don't see any issues here.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

Philo, you and I agree. I mean, I started my post really liking the ideal situation layed out by @DamianWarS.

However, do you think this is going to change in our kids lifetime, or the next?

...it may be that people are 'forced' into communitarian living arrangements. The problem with this is that if it comes by economic deprivation rather than by love for family that surmounts and/or displaces the current assumptions of 'autonomy' and 'individualism,' then parents and their children will continue to be at each other's throats. It's this social philosophy that has to change; individualism as a philosophical assumption and cardinal value has to be given up for New Testament social values.

Damian's post promoted me to think, given the current economic and cultural situation, how can we not only survive, but thrive economically, socially etc. When my son asks, "Dad how can I thrive in this economy?" what do you think is the answer? I think what I proposed is fair.

When my son has asked me this at various times, I've said to him, "Son, I love you, and as much as possible in that your mother and I can provide for you and help you, you are welcome to live with us. And if and when you meet a young lady, if you find yourself in economic challenges, both you and her are welcome to live with us (within the contexts of Christian biblical social principles, of course)....and we'll just have to figure it all out until such a time comes that you and she feel that you both want to find our own place."

See, my wife and I have always told our son he is welcome in our home. I never said to him what my own father, in his individualism, told me------that I have to leave so he can "live life in the way that he wants to live it." So, there's little to no reason for my son..............................to have to wait, and wait, and wait, and then thereby pull his hair out in then asking himself, "Should I have sex with this woman since we're not married and we can't yet afford to be?" No one should have to ask this question unless their parents are dead and they're struggling financially on their own.

 

[Tetra]

...it may be that people are 'forced' into communitarian living arrangements. The problem with this is that if it comes by economic deprivation rather than by love for family that surmounts and/or displaces the current assumptions of 'autonomy' and 'individualism,' then parents and their children will continue to be at each other's throats. It's this social philosophy that has to change; individualism as a philosophical assumption and cardinal value has to be given up for New Testament social values.

When my son has asked me this at various times, I've said to him, "Son, I love you, and as much as possible in that your mother and I can provide for you and help you, you are welcome to live with us. And if and when you meet a young lady, if you find yourself in economic challenges, both you and her are welcome to live with us (within the contexts of Christian biblical social principles, of course)....and we'll just have to figure it all out until such a time comes that you and she feel that you both want to find our own place."

See, my wife and I have always told our son he is welcome in our home. I never said to him what my own father, in his individualism, told me------that I have to leave so he can "live life in the way that he wants to live it." So, there's little to no reason for my son..............................to have to wait, and wait, and wait, and then thereby pull his hair out in then asking himself, "Should I have sex with this woman since we're not married and we can't yet afford to be?" No one should have to ask this question unless their parents are dead and they're struggling financially on their own.

I think you're a great dad for that man. My kids are only 10 and 7 so those questions are on my mind but they haven't been asked yet. If you're as a parent in a position to do that, that's awesome. I did everything I was told to do (married young, kids young, left the house at 20 etc) and now I'm paying the price given the economy. My kids will always be welcome to stay at my place when they grow up, I just hope I'll be able to afford it.

My argument would still be though, given the economy and culture, even if your/my kids stayed home they would still be more financially stable, well educated and successful if they follow what I'm proposing, than if they didn't.

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I think you're a great dad for that man. My kids are only 10 and 7 so those questions are on my mind but they haven't been asked yet. If you're as a parent in a position to do that, that's awesome. I did everything I was told to do (married young, kids young, left the house at 20 etc) and now I'm paying the price given the economy. My kids will always be welcome to stay at my place when they grow up, I just hope I'll be able to afford it.

Thanks for your commendation! But I do what I do not because I'm a 'great guy.' Rather, much of how I have decided to deal with my child comes by my understanding of what the New Testament teaches, and I think I see rather clearly what it is that Jesus/God wants us to do in our families. It's clear, but it's not easy.

But sure. It's hard out there for families everywhere, or most everywhere. My wife and I started out, and had our son, while living in only a 600 square foot apartment situated on the fringes of the not so nice side of town. Now, we're doing a bit better financially and can, without too much difficulty, continue to provide a 'room' for our son to live in. And while we can't just buy him a car or a house, he can live with us, and we affirm even the idea that when he finds a woman to marry, she's welcome here too!

My argument would still be though, given the economy and culture, even if your/my kids stayed home they would still be more financially stable, well educated and successful if they follow what I'm proposing, than if they didn't.

Yep! And that's the wisdom of it. But since Individualism and Autonomy are so highly (and somewhat falsely) prized in the West, it's no wonder we see the social fragmentation and economic deprivation that many people face at a young age, separated from any substantive assistance which their parents could have (or should have) provided so that that younger person could marry and not have to 'wait' to be with someone that he/she is in the process of learning to truly love.

 

[Ignatius the Kiwi]

Avoiding romance seems dubious to me. Seek it out and find someone to spend the rest of your life with as soon as possible.

I would also suggest a university degree isn't necessary. Consider a working apprenticeship. Less debt, decent income, paid to become skilled.

 

[Tetra]

Avoiding romance seems dubious to me. Seek it out and find someone to spend the rest of your life with as soon as possible.

I would also suggest a university degree isn't necessary. Consider a working apprenticeship. Less debt, decent income, paid to become skilled.

I'm currently in university and I can tell you, romantic relationships serve as a major distraction for these kids, it's all they talk about. I'm not saying to never have romantic relationships, I'm saying the probability of success decreases (at least from what I can tell in uni), again, I find this especially true for men.

University isn't needed, but on average those that have it tend to do better. Funny though, I was a machinist and choose to go back to uni. Trades are great, but they do have there own set of problems to overcome.

It seems reasonable to me to try and increase the probability of success, not decrease it. Will having a relationship "asap" as you put it increase the probability or decrease it?

 

[com7fy8]

unless there was a complete upheaval of western culture, it's not going to happen.

I would not put my hope in human culture for what is really beneficial.

Example can work very well. We can help younger people find out how to love, so they aren't confusing pleasure feelings with love.

as a young person who is a Christian in western culture, how can I become well educated, financially stable, and successful?

In order for it to be "well" with your soul . . . and not merely quantity . . . one needs to first trust in Christ and start new, depending on God to create the person's life. And notice how the very start of Jesus Christ's Sermon on the Mount is about . . . how to be. How we are in our character has so much to do with what we please to believe and whom we marry and what we do.

And only our Heavenly Father is able to change our character into how He is in us > 1 John 4:17. Then we share with Him in His own creativity for however much or little we have. We see how ones are turning out because they might have so much but they are limited to how they are selfish.

"You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted by your own affections." (2 Corinthians 6:12)

Get married to someone of equal success and direction

This can be restrictive.

Get a prenup if the person is not of equal success and direction

If you don't trust one another, why are you getting married?

On average, I would say in this culture and economy, following these "rules" will lead to the best outcome. You might think, well I didn't do any of this and I'm doing well, sure, but it's a different time now.

It is wise not to allow wrong people to decide what we do. If you can't tell the difference between someone who is real in love and honesty, versus someone otherwise . . . the problem is not being able to tell the difference. It is silly to suppose that methods and legal paperwork are what are needed. You can't control someone to love, but you can be with God able to tell the difference.

Where I live near Toronto the average home is 1/2 a mil, the cost of education, and living expenses is nuts.

There are people who have made an idol out of independence, and what their idol really is is isolation!!!!

Only with Jesus we can be free >

"and He died for all, that those who live should live no longer for themselves, but for Him who died for them and rose again." (2 Corinthians 5:15)

 

[Tetra]

I would not put my hope in human culture for what is really beneficial.

Me neither.

Example can work very well. We can help younger people find out how to love, so they aren't confusing pleasure feelings with love.

Sounds great, no issues with that.

In order for it to be "well" with your soul . . . and not merely quantity . . . one needs to first trust in Christ and start new, depending on God to create the person's life. And notice how the very start of Jesus Christ's Sermon on the Mount is about . . . how to be. How we are in our character has so much to do with what we please to believe and whom we marry and what we do.

And only our Heavenly Father is able to change our character into how He is in us > 1 John 4:17. Then we share with Him in His own creativity for however much or little we have. We see how ones are turning out because they might have so much but they are limited to how they are selfish.

"You are not restricted by us, but you are restricted by your own affections." (2 Corinthians 6:12)

I don't know exactly what these specific verses have to do with what we're talking about, but I love the Bible so rock on.

This can be restrictive.

... how? Can you elaborate?

If you don't trust one another, why are you getting married?

I would recommend not getting married if you're a man. If you must, and you're unequal in terms of prior success, then a prenup is logical.

It is wise not to allow wrong people to decide what we do. If you can't tell the difference between someone who is real in love and honesty, versus someone otherwise . . . the problem is not being able to tell the difference. It is silly to suppose that methods and legal paperwork are what are needed. You can't control someone to love, but you can be with God able to tell the difference.

Awesome, I'd recommend just not getting married.

There are people who have made an idol out of independence, and what their idol really is is isolation!!!!

People make idols out of all sorts of things. I'd recommend not doing that.

 

[DamianWarS]

Well, I just don't see these things as mutually exclusive. I can literally do everything I posted in the OP, and give glory to Christ and His plan.

I can focus hard on school, get straight A's AND share the word. I can have a well paying career, and go and make disciples of all the nations.

I don't see any issues here.

You can but it feels your starting point is your life goals of monetary gain and you're just a christian while you do it. Try not to put giving God glory as just something you do but rather the core part of everything you. Why not try some spiritual goals and see how they agree with this other plan