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How to prove that GOD exists from a scientific point of view?

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2PhiloVoid

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Ah, thanks, I missed that. The only post I saw was 2864 on the next page from that.

In any case, it sounds as though his solution was to interpret it as metaphorical, not literal. But by doing that, you can hold that any text is true. I could use this technique to argue for the validity of the story of Little Red Riding Hood.

No, he wasn't presenting a "solution." He was offering Princeton level analysis and attempting to call the literature what it was. Kenton L. Sparks goes even further and essentially posits that there might even be reason to remove Genesis chapter 1 from the Canon (as it's typically conceptualized).

But that's another discussion and I won't get into that here. The point is that Conrad Hyers, and others similar to him, wasn't a fundamentalist and there are various higher caliber Christian minds out there to engage with than those you're used to engaging.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Well, that's a somewhat extreme example, but it fits my point - so why not? Why is it only the extreme fanatics, and then only for a sacred cause (and a promise of virgins)?

Here's a thought: you and @Estrid do what I do: just ignore those "no atheists in foxhole" asides that come in from the peanut gallery since they have no real epistemological substance?

Just an idea. :dontcare:
 
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2PhiloVoid

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Which fits with what Mark Twain said: “Having faith is believing in something you just know ain't true.”
Actually, it doesn't fit with that, but we don't need to debate that.
Why believe anything if there's no actual evidence for it? How do you determine it's not just wishful thinking?

Where do you think I should begin in order to answer that? Do we want to lead a team off of the Enterprise into the Rabbit Hole and find out?
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Here's a thought: you and @Estrid do what I do: just ignore those "no atheists in foxhole" asides that come in from the peanut gallery since they have no real epistemological substance?

Just an idea. :dontcare:
It's a thought... ;)
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Yeah it's called prayer and the answer from our God to those prayers. Such as healing and miracles.
No, not prayer; there's no good scientific evidence for that. There is evidence for benefits to mental & physical health, probably as a result of lower stress levels and other benefits of identifying with a strong social group.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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You do realise I was talking about brain study here? You're forgetting context again.
Yuh. Brain study is how belief in God would be detected. Perhaps it was you that lost the context - the relevant context was in response to another poster who seemed to suggest that there was no detectable difference between God and belief in God.
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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It was an example used in response to what she was referencing. It wasn't literal. If you didn't see that in the context of the conversation it was in then don't reply to a conversation you aren't a part of.
Conversations are public on this forum. I read the conversation and found your post... opaque. I was simply asking for clarification.
 
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Adventist Dissident

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I was trying to point out that saying "god is light" is a very odd thing to say if you think about what light is and what its properties are.
1. We don't know as much about light as other things in Physics. 2.That is how God is described in the scripture, it does not contradict science. 3. Scripture says "we live and move and have our being IN Him. so we exist in light, move in light and are made up of light. That is accurate scientific view of our existence and material matter.
 
YahuahSaves
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I have to disagree and say that scripture refers to the Holy spirit. Jesus is the "light of the world" but it doesn't mean natural light. The bible talks of spiritual things. But in explaining the way we understand light and that darkness is just the absence of light, can describe the difference between the saved and unsaved people in the world.
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YahuahSaves
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I commend you for attempting to lead them from science to God though! Unfortunately, God opposes the proud. As the scriptures say;

Proverbs 3:34

34 The Lord mocks the mockers
but is gracious to the humble.[a]

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Adventist Dissident

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This is interesting, but using the words 'energy' and 'light' and the equation E=mc² doesn't make it science or consistent with science. As Wolfgang Pauli once said, "Das ist nicht nur nicht richtig, es ist nicht einmal falsch!" IOW, "That is not only not right, it is not even wrong!"
nice attempt at denial, deflection & obscurification. In fact it does make it science, because it is consistent with what science has already observed and demonstrated is possible. this just demonstrates that you don't want any evidence and are close minded. you have not given any valid reason for your objection , you just said "i don't like that answer" so open your mind and get some integrity
 
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sjastro

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nice attempt at denial, deflection & obscurification. In fact it does make it science, because it is consistent with what science has already observed and demonstrated is possible. this just demonstrates that you don't want any evidence and are close minded. you have not given any valid reason for your objection , you just said "i don't like that answer" so open your mind and get some integrity
I'm not going to get into the debate of equating God with light but from a purely physics perspective the equation E = mₒc² does not describe the energy of light or a photon which is a wave packet of light.
E = mₒc² is part of a more general equation E = c√(p² + mₒ²c²) where p is the momentum, mₒ is the rest mass and c is the speed of light.

Since photons have a zero rest mass mₒ = 0 , the equation reduces to E = c√(p²) = pc which is the correct equation for the energy of photon.
For particles with a rest mass mₒ, p = 0 and the equation reduces to E = c√( mₒ²c²) = mₒc².
 
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FrumiousBandersnatch

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Perhaps you could give us an example of someone who lost his faith in WW1 or WW2 and stayed faithless?
Not off hand. I read a BBC article on it years ago that had some excerpts from books, interviews, etc. Here's an article that mentions the effect of war on belief.
 
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2PhiloVoid

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First let me say that your perspective on the shortcomings within the historicity of Christianity is quite refreshing, and does more to address the legitimacy of your arguments than any fervency in defense of them ever could. When skeptics know that you recognize the weaknesses in your own arguments it gives them a reassurance that you won't just blindly dismiss the legitimate concerns of others either. That's a very constructive position from which to begin any exchange. So kudos on your honesty.

Now, as for specific texts it's difficult to compare early Christian texts on a level playing field with other historical texts, because from at least the third and forth centuries onward the Catholic Church held such sway over what was and wasn't approved dogma that whatever history has been preserved has to be filtered through the lens of the Church's influence. Many later texts, and indeed many claims about saints, and martyrs, and holy artifacts have to be taken with a grain of salt. For well over a thousand years the Catholic Church decided what was and wasn't historical. I can think of no other instance of historical texts that have such an institutionalized foundation.

However, neither will I dismiss any legitimate early Christian texts, I just believe that such texts are far fewer and less definitive than most Christians are willing to admit. But the later that Christian texts get, and the more that they tend toward Church dogma, the more skeptical that many people become, and rightly so in my opinion.

I think Christians often oversell the historical evidence that they claim to have for their beliefs, and I also think that this tendency to fervently defend that questionable historicity harms the legitimate historical evidence that may indeed exist.

At least that's my opinion, but I'm open to any arguments to the contrary. But trust me, I've been around awhile, I've heard most of them.

I hear what you're saying and I generally agree with it. Thanks for adding you're comments!
 
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Hans Blaster

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1. We don't know as much about light as other things in Physics. 2.That is how God is described in the scripture, it does not contradict science. 3. Scripture says "we live and move and have our being IN Him. so we exist in light, move in light and are made up of light. That is accurate scientific view of our existence and material matter.

Either this "light" verbiage is some bad poetic reference, or god is made of photons with a few eV energy and I can block god with a decent shade.
 
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Lost Witness

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What's a commandment? Not spelling or saying Gods title? Not true, the scripture says it.

Ten Commandments for the Covenant Community

20 Then God gave the people all these instructions[a]:

2 “I am the Lord your God, who rescued you from the land of Egypt, the place of your slavery.

3 “You must not have any other god but me.

The lower case g in the 1st commandment means you shall not worship anything and everything that is not God, hence why we call them "little gods".
"Thou shalt not take the name of the LORD thy God in vain: for the LORD will not hold him guiltless that taketh his name in vain."
GOD is a title but people do use his name and that's in violation of the First and Greatest Commandment which is, "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind."
the two Commandments the LORD Jesus told us to Obey covers the '10' commandments GOD set before us to Obey.
Including taking the LORDS name in vain.
Referring to the MOST HIGH GOD as Heavenly Father helps me to remember how i was raised to respect my parents and not to call them by name<----
Just My 2 cents
 
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SelfSim

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I'm not saying it's not a belief, just that it's a different kind of belief, and therefore there's a difference. I thought you'd already agreed to that.
Angels on the head of a pin, when compared with the real issue .. which is belief based thinking.
 
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AV1611VET

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I'm confused. What does that have to do with the million year old geological movement of the earth that caused the earth quake to happen?
After the initial quake, people wanted to go back home and asked the seismologists if it was okay.

Seismologists "asked the earth" about it, and told the people it was okay.

The people went back home, and your CANT-LIE-MOTHER-EARTH nailed them with aftershocks.

Those scientists were prosecuted as criminals.
 
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dlamberth

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Your previous statements indicate that your notion of God that is "consciousness" actually comes from new age belief that God is just energy that we're all a part of and return to when we die. In other words, we are Gods consciousness. Is this what you were getting at? Please clarify for me if I'm mistaken.
Please, back to whom Jesus prayed to. Your adding stuff that has nothing to do with the question. You said the Father, right? What IS the make up of the Father that Jesus was touching as He reached out in prayer? Jesus was in a physical form. That whom Jesus prayed is in some other form, yet His prayer was very focused as it reached beyond the physical as reality. I'm looking for something beyond the physical aspect of the word "Father". And what seems to be out there is "consciousness". Do you have any other ideas?

Just to be clear, my question has nothing to do with the idea that we are God's consciousness or anything like that. It has to do wholly with God and whom Jesus prayed to.

As an aside to address the New Age comment, the idea of God being consciousness is a very old idea for Christian mystics. Personally I deplore New Age stuff, but in my reading I get a sence that it's from the ancient Christian mystics that it those kinds of New Age ideas came from. I could be very wrong on that, but I'm not into New Age to give anything more than a guess.
 
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dlamberth

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After the initial quake, people wanted to go back home and asked the seismologists if it was okay.

Seismologists "asked the earth" about it, and told the people it was okay.

The people went back home, and your CANT-LIE-MOTHER-EARTH nailed them with aftershocks.

Those scientists were prosecuted as criminals.
The earth is building mountains as two plates collide over million of years. The earth is unable to lie about that truth. The evidence is in the mountains themselves and the earthquakes that happen as a result.
 
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