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So what exactly is your point then, if you have to invoke fantasy to make your point?
My inability to travel faster than light does not force me into a particular course of action. There are still plenty of choices I can make. What's with this all-or-nothing attitude? Surely you realise it's a strawman?
My inability to travel faster than light does not force me into a particular course of action. There are still plenty of choices I can make. What's with this all-or-nothing attitude? Surely you realise it's a strawman?
(didn't see previous posts, btw)This comes back to my earlier point about making decisions for my children without necessarily micromanaging their lives. It's certainly possible that we have *some* free will, but not necessarily complete free will. I think we *all* would agree that none of us have "complete" free will.
My understanding has always been that free will related to the ability to choose between feasible/plausible/practical/possible courses of action. It did not relate to choosing something that was impossible. Consequently the need to reference a "complete" free will seems completely superfluous.I think we *all* would agree that none of us have "complete" free will.
A Christian scientist a few years ago told me that GOD was beyond science so people had to approach HIM based upon faith, like, he is outside of space and time. GOD is an immaterial spirit, right?
Some people have used logic and science, including archaeology and math, to argue away the existence of GOD per say, but not all scientists are atheists. Some of them actually do believe in GOD.
Dad says that complexity of human DNA proves that there is an intelligent creator behind the existence of mankind. He points to that as evidence of GOD and of his faith.
Some of these university professors, who have PHDs and a lot of education under their belt, like to say that GOD does not exist because its not smart or something like that.
Well, I was born pretty smart (for a human) and I still believed anyway. So why does belief in God possibly make me stupid? It does not is what I am saying.
For someone who, unlike me, won't believe on their own and they need, like, science to try and help them find GOD, what should I say to them? Is there any scientific evidence to support GOD?
I don't think GOD can actually be found by science. Science deals strictly with the earthly realm, or with what can be seen visibly, so if one is going to find HIM they have to step outside of this world based upon faith.
So GOD is an immaterial spirit, meaning HE is not confined to what can be seen and measured, HE is beyond all of it. Therefore science is unable to either prove or disprove HIS existence. And it probably never will prove HIS existence anyway.
I was under the impression that you were the one espousing the all or nothing attitude - either nothing is predestined or free will doesn't exist.
This comes back to my earlier point about making decisions for my children without necessarily micromanaging their lives. It's certainly possible that we have *some* free will, but not necessarily complete free will. I think we *all* would agree that none of us have "complete" free will.
I agree that there are things that limit us - I can't choose to start floating around the room, for example, because I am limited by gravity.
But having limitations is not the same thing as having a choice made for us. Those limitations do not lock us in to one specific course of action. I am still able to make my own choices within the options available to me.
Would you further agree that at least "some" of your choices today were influenced by things like where you were born, your parents, your early education, and things that were not within your 'control'?
No I didn't. If God decided what I would do, i am locked out of that decision making process.
If there is something outside myself that means I am locked into one specific course of action, then it can not be because of a choice I make. For me to make a choice, I need several possible outcomes, and you've just said that I have none.
I never said there can't be any outside influences. But such influences do not lock me into a specific course of action.
The difference is that in one case, I am the one making the choice, and in the other case the choice is being made by someone who is NOT
Because if someone other than me makes the choice, I am not the one who is choosing.
Honestly, this is a simple concept. Surely you understand it.
So you're are saying that because I can't travel by multiple routes simultaneously, I don't have a choice?
REALLY?
If God choose it, then I didn't, even if he made the same choice I would have made.
Let me ask you a question...
Let's say you come over to my place for dinner. I have to decide what I'm going to cook, and the final two options are steak and salad, or a plate of dog poo. I choose to make the steak and salad because I figure you don't want to eat the dog poo.
Would you claim that you had to choose between steak and dog poo? Yes or no? And why or why not?
Yes I would.
And once again I will point out that that is not the same thing as predestination.
Predestination is when I am locked into one specific course of action. Like if I am going to cook eggs for breakfast tomorrow morning, using the first and third egg in the carton, which I will start cooking at exactly 07:58:43.6 am, cracking the eggs into a specific location in the frying pan, and I will cook them for exactly 3 minutes and 5.2378 seconds, and I will drop the second egg onto the floor when I try to get it onto my plate.
However, the fact that I was born in Austria did not lock me into moving to Australia with my mum, or marrying a man with the same name as you, or going to certain schools.
Yes, otherwise our free will could mean the events that are predestined can't occur, or that our free will is not allowed in situations which could interfere with the predestined events coming to pass, which would include pretty much anything.
But me being limited by the speed of light doesn't count as predestination though, does it? The fact that I am unable to travel faster than light does not lock me into one specific course of action.
You say you have to have several (I suppose you mean at least more than one) possible outcomes, and that's ok with me, if by that you mean more than one choice. However, once you choose there can be only the one result of that choice --the outcome. I don't know why you keep saying "outcome". Why don't you say "choice", so we can be clear what we are talking about? Your choice locks you into only one outcome.
Now as for the question of choice --of course you choose! How does God causing all the different options and influences change anything if you admit to those options and influences without him having anything to do with it? You just keep repeating the same mantra --that "If God decided what I would do, i am locked out of that decision making process." Asserting it is so does not answer my question.
No, I don't understand it. To me, if you admit to options and influences as causes for your choice, then it should make no difference whether God caused the causes --you still chose.
God chose, and so did you. I could even say, "and so you did."
If you gave me the option of dog poo, yes, I would choose --probably to leave your house, lol. The only difference between choosing steak or poo as opposed to which route to drive, is that the choice is more obvious and easy to make. It is still choice.
And yet some of the *most* important factors and experiences in my life could be seen as being 'predestined'.
I would describe such minor things as 'micromanagement' (my children example). While I didn't even attempt to control or have any influence on "minor" decisions my children might make, I still stayed *heavily* involved in 'more important' aspects of their lives. For instance, I specifically moved to Mt. Shasta from southern California because I didn't want my children to be exposed to gangs and "big city" types of influences. It was a conscious choice that I made for them in terms of the schools they would attend, the types of friends they would have access to, etc.
My intent was to "steer" them in the right direction in life without completely micromanaging their lives. I did stay actively involved in their lives until they became adults, and left my home.
Likewise, my choice to raise my children in Northern California didn't prevent them from moving to other states, or prevent one of my daughters from marrying a man from Australia and chose to live in Missouri. Even still, I think I did my best to give them a "good start" in life, and to pass on the beliefs that I believed would help them to succeed in life.
I think there's a healthy medium between pointing them in the right direction and trying to micromanage every single aspect of their lives. I would still argue that I 'predestined' many aspects of their life, even though I didn't try to interfere with their own sense of "free will".
FYI, I tend to agree with your position that we do in fact have "free will", but I would say that many aspects of my life were "predetermined"/"predestined" elements as is true for my own children. It seems to me that there is room for some amount of predetermination *and* free will. I don't see it as a binary either/or question.
But it limits your actions, just the same as the previously given example of being fated to die at age 84 would limit your action of committing suicide at a younger age.
Lol, we seem to be repeating ourselves.You seem to be missing the fact that if I have free choice, then I must be the one doing the choosing. If God is making the choice, then I am not, and thus I am not acting of my own free choice.
This simple fact seems to be elusive to you for some reason.
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