How to love The sinner but hate the Sin: 5 Easy Steps

[Beanieboy]

One of the most amazing spoken words I've heard. Curious what people think:

Edit: Summarry: Spoken word showing what it feels like to be on the receiving end of someone who uses that phrase, or tough love.

 

[HatedByAll]

To me the term "Love the sinner, hate the sin" misses the mark.

If Jesus had occasion to state that, he would have said Hate the sin because I love the sinner.

If you are not willing to invest real time and loving people caught in lifestyle sins, it is best not to just make off the cuff comments to them when all they are going to do is scoff at you.

 

[HARK!]

I haven't found scripture to support that title; but I did find this:


(CLV) Ps 5:4
For You are not an El Whose delight is in wickedness; Evil may not sojourn with You.

(CLV) Ps 5:5
No boasters may set themselves up in front of Your eyes; You hate all contrivers of lawlessness;

 

[GaveMeJoy]

One of the most amazing spoken words I've heard. Curious what people think:

“Love the sinner, hate the sin” is stupid. All sin has the same function: separating people from God. Loving people and loving Jesus means you will hate sin necessarily you don’t have to “try” to do the second part of you do the first part.

how about instead of pithy little sayings to hide hate behind, let’s go with the greatest commandment and the one like it. Love your neighbor. Even if they sin.

 

[ViaCrucis]

I understand the sentiment behind the phrase. We should have no affection for that which is harmful, destructive, and/or evil; but still love the person for we are called to love all.

Where I tend to be critical of the expression is when it is used as a kind of justification for the mistreatment of persons; rather than loving them.

If we are properly preaching Law and Gospel then we can trust in the power of God's word to do what He has set it forth to do, as the Prophet Isaiah, "My word does not return to Me void". The Law does condemn sin, and when we see ourselves in light of the Law we cannot help but behold our sin; but the Law contains no power to save, no power to soothe, no power to comfort--the Law is a mirror, and a mirror when it reflects us back to ourselves is simply doing what it does. So when we behold our ugliness on account of sin, it does not come from a place of malice from God, it is simply a true portrait of our own naked selves--no masks, no pretensions, we are naked as we truly are. However, Christ did not commission His Church to go out and preach the Law to the nations, but to go forth and preach the Gospel to the nations. And it is the Gospel which saves, comforts, soothes, for the Gospel we are told is the very power of God to save us (Romans 1:16), from which comes faith (Romans 10:17), and thus the naked sinner is clothed with the pure white robes of Christ's righteousness, and is justified freely by the grace of God, through the faith which we have received from Him. For, indeed, it is by grace we have been saved, through God's gift of faith which we have received, this is not something by our own power, strength, will, or effort; as such we have no room to boast (See Ephesians 2:8-9). However, the Apostle tells us, we boast in the Lord, we boast in the crucified Jesus, we boast in the cross--for we preach Christ and Him crucified, risen from the dead, the Savior of the world, the Savior of all men, the Savior of every sinner.

If we are preaching this, as we ought. And if we are hearing the word with ears to listen, we should not at any point consider our job to be going around straining at gnats, or pointing out the speck in our neighbor's eye--but rather confessing the beam in our own eye, confessing that we are but beggars before God, and with the cupped hands of a beggar, it is God who places the white robe of Christ's righteousness over us (For it is written, "All of you who were baptized into Christ have been clothed with Christ." Galatians 3:27). Confessing our sins, confessing our lives as a crucified people; and it is only as a crucified people we share in the power of Christ's resurrection--for having died with Him, buried with Him, God has raised us up together with Him to the new life which He has. And therefore, "God has raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in heavenly places in Christ Jesus," (Ephesians 2:6).

To know what we are in the ugliness of our sin, and cry "Lord, have mercy on me a sinner." And to know what we have received in Christ, and what we are in Him, and what we shall be on the Last Day. For such is the good will and work of God upon us sinners, that we should be found in Him both now and on the Last Day.

It is only here, in this place of humility, faith, and rightly dividing the word of truth, that as the community of faith we can approach our brother and sister--and, for such things we have entrusted this kind of pastoral care to pastors, ministers of the Word and Sacrament. It is in this kind of context that St. Paul can rebuke the Corinthians of their arrogance, and dumbfounded by how they can tolerate--for example--the man sleeping with his father's wife. For such happens in the household of faith, and such rebuke comes from a place of pastoring, not moralizing, not legalism, not mean-spiritedness, but of pastoral work not just seeking to reconcile the one engaging in such destructive behavior, but also keeping the rest of the flock of Christ comforted.

So, sure, hate the sin and love the sinner. But more importantly, know and remember that you are a sinner and recognize and remember God's word of forgiveness, mercy, comfort to you, the precious Gospel of your salvation; and then as a sinner going out among other sinners, "having an answer for the hope that is in you, doing so with kindness and respect." (1 Peter 3:15) And with kindness, with love, without bitterness, without prejudice, do not be proud or arrogant, but humble, lowly, regarding others more highly than yourself, and loving them. Loving them through both your works for which were created in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:10) and with the sweet word of God's mercy, of the One who saves you, saves them, for it is for all of us, for the whole world.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[SkyWriting]

One of the most amazing spoken words I've heard. Curious what people think:

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[SkyWriting]

One of the most amazing spoken words I've heard. Curious what people think:

Jesus never said any such thing. And He said amazing things.

 

[muichimotsu]

Jesus never said any such thing. And He said amazing things.

No one is ascribing the words to Jesus, context dictates it's implied by particular sentiments in the Bible and from Jesus, that basic nuance escapes people so easily it's baffling

 

[muichimotsu]

I understand the sentiment behind the phrase. We should have no affection for that which is harmful, destructive, and/or evil; but still love the person for we are called to love all.

Where I tend to be critical of the expression is when it is used as a kind of justification for the mistreatment of persons; rather than loving them.

If we are properly preaching Law and Gospel then we can trust in the power of God's word to do what He has set it forth to do, as the Prophet Isaiah, "My word does not return to Me void". The Law does condemn sin, and when we see ourselves in light of the Law we cannot help but behold our sin; but the Law contains no power to save, no power to soothe, no power to comfort--the Law is a mirror, and a mirror when it reflects us back to ourselves is simply doing what it does. So when we behold our ugliness on account of sin, it does not come from a place of malice from God, it is simply a true portrait of our own naked selves--no masks, no pretensions, we are naked as we truly are. However, Christ did not commission His Church to go out and preach the Law to the nations, but to go forth and preach the Gospel to the nations. And it is the Gospel which saves, comforts, soothes, for the Gospel we are told is the very power of God to save us (Romans 1:16), from which comes faith (Romans 10:17), and thus the naked sinner is clothed with the pure white robes of Christ's righteousness, and is justified freely by the grace of God, through the faith which we have received from Him. For, indeed, it is by grace we have been saved, through God's gift of faith which we have received, this is not something by our own power, strength, will, or effort; as such we have no room to boast (See Ephesians 2:8-9). However, the Apostle tells us, we boast in the Lord, we boast in the crucified Jesus, we boast in the cross--for we preach Christ and Him crucified, risen from the dead, the Savior of the world, the Savior of all men, the Savior of every sinner.

If we are preaching this, as we ought. And if we are hearing the word with ears to listen, we should not at any point consider our job to be going around straining at gnats, or pointing out the speck in our neighbor's eye--but rather confessing the beam in our own eye, confessing that we are but beggars before God, and with the cupped hands of a beggar, it is God who places the white robe of Christ's righteousness over us (For it is written, "All of you who were baptized into Christ have been clothed with Christ." Galatians 3:27). Confessing our sins, confessing our lives as a crucified people; and it is only as a crucified people we share in the power of Christ's resurrection--for having died with Him, buried with Him, God has raised us up together with Him to the new life which He has. And therefore, "God has raised us up with Christ and seated us with Him in heavenly places in Christ Jesus," (Ephesians 2:6).

To know what we are in the ugliness of our sin, and cry "Lord, have mercy on me a sinner." And to know what we have received in Christ, and what we are in Him, and what we shall be on the Last Day. For such is the good will and work of God upon us sinners, that we should be found in Him both now and on the Last Day.

It is only here, in this place of humility, faith, and rightly dividing the word of truth, that as the community of faith we can approach our brother and sister--and, for such things we have entrusted this kind of pastoral care to pastors, ministers of the Word and Sacrament. It is in this kind of context that St. Paul can rebuke the Corinthians of their arrogance, and dumbfounded by how they can tolerate--for example--the man sleeping with his father's wife. For such happens in the household of faith, and such rebuke comes from a place of pastoring, not moralizing, not legalism, not mean-spiritedness, but of pastoral work not just seeking to reconcile the one engaging in such destructive behavior, but also keeping the rest of the flock of Christ comforted.

So, sure, hate the sin and love the sinner. But more importantly, know and remember that you are a sinner and recognize and remember God's word of forgiveness, mercy, comfort to you, the precious Gospel of your salvation; and then as a sinner going out among other sinners, "having an answer for the hope that is in you, doing so with kindness and respect." (1 Peter 3:15) And with kindness, with love, without bitterness, without prejudice, do not be proud or arrogant, but humble, lowly, regarding others more highly than yourself, and loving them. Loving them through both your works for which were created in Christ Jesus (Ephesians 2:10) and with the sweet word of God's mercy, of the One who saves you, saves them, for it is for all of us, for the whole world.

-CryptoLutheran

The problem remains that people will conflate behavior and such with a person, as if they are immutable and can never change or as if you can just cut out my behavior and say you still respect me when said behavior is not on the level of what I choose to eat for dinner, but how I interact with people more intimately (as an asexual in my case).

The distinction can create as many problems as it purports to solve in saying they don't hate gay people, just the "lifestyle" (improper use of that word aside), but they're effectively hating what is part of a person and not so easily separated as what car they buy or what movie they see

 

[public hermit]

One of the most amazing spoken words I've heard. Curious what people think:

That's pretty powerful. The irony is biting. Do you think what she presents is a caricature to get across the point, or is it a very accurate representarion of how some think, speak, and act?

 

[SkyWriting]

No one is ascribing the words to Jesus, context dictates it's implied by particular sentiments in the Bible and from Jesus, that basic nuance escapes people so easily it's baffling

So it's not an idea from scripture at all. Not a teaching from Jesus.
It's baffling that every other writer of scripture missed it!

 

[Beanieboy]

That's pretty powerful. The irony is biting. Do you think what she presents is a caricature to get across the point, or is it a very accurate representarion of how some think, speak, and act?

Honestly, I am usually on the receiving end, and say she is pretty spot on.

 

[public hermit]

Honestly, I am usually on the receiving end, and say she is pretty spot on.

That's heartbreaking. I'm sorry you have not been treated better by your brothers and sisters in Christ.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Love the Christian; hate the Christianity?

 

[Beanieboy]

That's heartbreaking. I'm sorry you have not been treated better by your brothers and sisters in Christ.

That you even call me a brother in Christ is completely different from what I have experienced, and itself, healing

Back in the 80s, pre-internet, and after receiving tongues at 18, heard Leviticus misquoted so many times, that God hated me, and already feeling shame, thought God wanted me dead. That's what people hear when that is quoted repeatedly, but imagine for a minute, the God you grew up with, singing Jesus loved Me, and They Will Know that We Are Christians By Our Love, telling you that you are an abomination to God, and the level of devastation one feels.

From step one, I got tired of the question.
Me: You aren't saved through works. Itis more of...like fruit off a tree, being your faith and love. The works aren't an obligation for payment, but rather, your nature.
Other poster: How can you be gay and Christian???
Me: (sigh)

So having studied Buddhism, and reading Buddhist Mind, Christ heart, just changed to Buddhist on my avatar.
A Christian woman pleaded with me to leave homosexuality. (Not being Christian didn't seema concern, however.) So I explained I was Christan, had prayed about it incessantly since 13 or 14, and me and God are good,and of the 7 passages, they don't say what people think they do. But I agreed to go to God again, and ask again. She made me promise, but I had to pray specifically to God the Judeo Christian Father, Jesus Christ his only begotten son, and the Holy Spirit.

I promised, and asked if she would also pray and ask to be corrected if in error. She said, "Why should I?" I told her it is a win-win - either she will receive a clearer understanding where she had been in error, or a confirmation. it's good either way, and which of us is right shouldn't matter, but what is right with God. She flat out refused, saying she knew she was right. To this day, I pray, Father, I know I have asked you a number of times about my orientation over the years, and you have answered, and it's not that I don't have faith in you. I lack the faith in me. So again, if I have disobeyed you or strayed from you, please show me, and forgive me.

Well, I still kept my promise. I prayed. Felt silky addressing the Father/Son/HS so formerly, but I did.

And God literally spoke. Usually the reply is more telepathic, a thought that you know is not your own. This was a voice.

God said, I have known you since your infancy, but you must have the courage to wear the title of My Child.

Then I was shown that for the first 40 or so years of my life, while I loved God, he had been holding out his arms, pleading for me to just accept his love. But I had been lied to, told that God saw me with disgust, disappointment, hatred even, that in believing the lie, didn't allow myself to accept God's love, believing myself unworthy, unlovable.

He showed me that we do good, and God loves us. We sin, make mistakes, and God loves us, hopefully learn from them. But God loves us simply because we exist. You don't earn God's love, so you cannot lose it, ever. He loves us first, not so that we sit and adore him all day. What kind of parent would a father or mother be that has a child so someone adores them?? He loves us first in the hope that we will in turn love others first, not because they deserve it, but because they exist, and are children of God. And in accepting his love and the knowledge of his love being unconditional, I wanted to focus on treating others in love and kindness as a way to thank him, and I no longer had to carry around this fear if walking on eggshells, and losing salvation and God's love by our imperfections, and could then forgive those who sinned against me. I felt...free. I was really excited and deeply loved by what he revealed.

So, excited to share this amazing revelation, I wrote a long letter to my mom, explaining that I was still the same person she knows as a child. I went on Christian Forums, and changed my icon to Christian.

Almost immediately, a Christian came at me, saying, "How can you be gay and Christian?"
I said I am.
He said it is impossible.
I said that maybe it is a miracle.
He got more and more irate, demanding that I denounce Christ. I told him God just spoke to me, and the HS moves my tongue. I could't deny Christ if I wanted to, but...
What Christian does that? Demands you to deny Christ himself??

So, thank you for your empathy, but I see it as blessing, like going to bootcamp at a gym, and know having faith of steel. A person says I'm not Christian? They can believe whatever they want. It doesn't affect me or the truth.
A person tells me I'm going to hell? They can believe what they wish, but I have more faith in Christ than they do.

But may I ask this of you? I aporeciate your empathy, but it is more needed by GLBTQ youth often bullied, often victims of violence, and sometimes kicked out of their homes.

Lend it to LGBTQ Christians, simply wanting to worship God, come to communion, without feeling like they are on trial, condemned, or constant told they alone must change, and told it's a choice, like deciding what to have for dinner, by sone well-meaning, some mean-spirited, Christians, who refuse to read studies, or other interpretations.

Please offer it to those of us, now in my 50s, still being asked to justify my existence, hearing calling my married friends who married to not be loving but just full of lust, and not really married anyway,

or those who, after searching and searching, found someone that..it's just magic, so one pops the question, the other accepts, and then...

"I have to choose between my job of making wedding cakes, or my religion!! Come quickly, Lord Jesus...."

And the baker getting all the empathy. And Ernie and Bert saying, "Now listen up, girl. You have to decide between discrimination, and loving your neighbor as yourself . And why you are giving that a good think, and crying crocodile tears for the camera and raising 75Ok, a bit over the 25k GoFundMe request, all at our expense....

We are going to go across the street, and giving them our money instead. And if you can't make a cake because it violates your religion, I won't even buy a donut hole hear because I don't want to support discrimination."

But, I do appreciate it. It gives me hope for humanity, and shows me there is some Christ in sone forms of Christianity

 

[Beanieboy]

Jesus never said any such thing. And He said amazing things.

You have never heard a Christian this?

I lost count.
The first time someone said it to me, I was puzzled, and said, "I love you, too, and..um..hate your sin as well."
She said, MY SIN?????WHAT SIN DO I HAVE?"
I said that I assume everyone has some sin or we wouldn't need God's forgiveness, nor learn how to forgive one another, but she kind of stormed off.

But I believe you are being too literal, and honestly, we should love our neighbor, and hate our own sin. No one feels loved if your love has a tagline.

One Christian explained, "I can't just say I love you because you nay misunderstand that I approve of your lifestyle choice."
I said, "Why would I ever assume anything other than you love my personhood, my personality, my soul.
Do you tell your spouse, "I love you, just hate the way you clip your toenails on the couch?" Or do you just say, "I love you? Aren't you afraid one of his shortcomings he is going to think you love?
So, I don't aporeciate the fact you refer to my life as a "lifestyle," or that you think it is a choice unless you are equally attracted to both sexes, and know that your opposite sex attraction didn't happen after a pro/con spreadsheet, then choosing. You simply went through puberty. I don't appreciate the fact that you ignore the multitude of studies on the issue, because they may be in opposition to your opinion. I don't appreciate it when you tell me I'm unhappy, I made a choice, etc, trying to convince you know me better than I know myself, when you barely know me. And your love feels like a backhanded compliment, telling me you'll pray for me sounds arrogant and the entire inteaction the antithesis of what Christ taught, making me wonder if you actually follow Christ, or yourself. That is for you to decide. So, I think yiu got a, a, is that a tree branch in your eye? Really should do something about that.

That said, I love you. "

That's how it's done.

 

[public hermit]

But, I do appreciate it. It gives me hope for humanity, and shows me there is some Christ in sone forms of Christianity

Thank you for sharing your experience with me. I'm no one's judge. My sins trail behind me like so many minutes in a day. May the grace and strength of our Lord be with you.

 

[Sketcher]

One of the most amazing spoken words I've heard. Curious what people think:

Edit: Summarry: Spoken word showing what it feels like to be on the receiving end of someone who uses that phrase, or tough love.

Well, she sure doesn't get it. Let's pretend that a Christian was tone-deaf enough to do steps 1-4 to a tee.

At 5, I don't think that Christian would be smug like that. I think that Christian will be thinking about how what they tried wasn't enough.

Now as for me personally, part of what I do for a living is let my customers know when they are doing something that puts their assets with us at risk. We do what we can, but some things are changeable by the customer and therefore the customer's responsibility. It is part of my job to let them know when they need to tighten things up, and in doing so I have to explain why making those inconvenient changes is in their best interests. Yes, those changes are inconvenient. Many don't have the patience to hear it. But we continue to let them know if we keep seeing it when they are doing other business with us. Sometimes, they make the necessary change. Other times, they refuse, and then the bad things we warned about happen to them, and all of a sudden their business is legitimately at risk. I filter my approach to dealing with sinners in a similar way. It will be challenging and when possible, correcting misconceptions about the Christian faith. It will include help when they are in need, and for friends, hanging out and being there for them. It will also mean apologizing when my best efforts have missed the mark. This is what I have done, and this is what I will continue to do.

 

[muichimotsu]

So it's not an idea from scripture at all. Not a teaching from Jesus.
It's baffling that every other writer of scripture missed it!

You've never heard of people paraphrasing or developing ideas from another text? The Bible doesn't stand on its own, or do you think all the commentary is just pointless now?

 

[loveofourlord]

My issue with it for things like gays, trans and other such targets of hate the sin lover the sinner, is equaivalent of saying, "I don't hate you, I hate your being black." to those there is no difference, it comes off condescending and rude. Having their sin to them is the same as hating them so there is no difference.