How to get through to Conservatives?

[Albion]

Huh?

This thread is about Christian conservatives and communicating with them.

It's not about just anything that reminds you of Conservatives, though. The OP was quite clearly focused on a certain issue.

 

[SkyWriting]

We are to be in the world, not of the world. If God's truth is archaic and unacceptable to you and to them, then so be it. Of course this doesn't mean that we should mistreat LGBT people, but we should not condone sin or seek to excuse it.

There is the sin of not loving your neighbor or not loving your enemy or not holding God in your heart at all time and praying constantly. Those sins you think we must crush?

 

[SkyWriting]

Do you guys believe it's possible to get through to conservatives that the way they act is often harmful and not conducive to acting like Christ?

By loving them as Christ would. Naturally.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

Exactly. Until everyone is willing to listen and engage in meaningful dialogue, change will not happen. Personally, I came from a conservative house and was very conservative growing up. In fact, so conservative that I went to my high school counselor to ask to be moved into a different speech class because I did not want to have a gay teacher. He obviously got wind of it, and sat me down in private to discuss it. He said that he understood where I had come from, and said that he is not going to force me to stay or leave, but that I couldn't stay in my Christian bubble forever. He was very respectful of me and my opinions, and I ultimately decided to stay. It was the seed the planted my change of heart.

That's wonderful.

The teacher who had the most profound impact on my life is also gay. I have grown up in metropolitan cities attending Mainline churches that are more inclusive, and have many friends who are my age or in their 20s and 30s who are gay. I've always had a different hermeneutical beliefs about Jesus accepting accepting those who are gay, so I've never felt much conflict. One of the reasons this teacher touched my heart and expanded my compassion so much was because he's old enough to be my grandfather, and he has gone through experiences kids my age haven't. He was raised in the southern part of Alabama in a Southern Baptist home where he was indoctrinated with the belief that homosexuality was an abomination, and believed from a young age through most of his life that he was defective. He knew he was gay very early on. His family knew, too. He said his father used to regularly beat him with a belt and pick switches from trees and strike him until he bled trying to get him to stop being effeminate and to be "normal." He desperately wanted to be like the other boys who liked girls, too. He prayed fervently every night for years to be changed. He felt afflicted. He dated girls in high school even though he wasn't attracted to them at all despite trying to be. He got married at age 19, mainly to please his family and didn't divorce until his mid-50s. He said he was always faithful, but that he felt a tremendous guilt the entire marriage because she loved him and he knew that she deserved better than to be with a husband who loved her sincerely but could not love her romantically. They had children together and built a typical life. He worked for his uncle's company as a roofer and in an assortment of jobs. He continued to pray that entire time, pleading with God to make him not be gay, and he quietly tried traditional therapy, church-based therapy, and "conversion therapy." He reached out to various charlatans for years that promised to "fix" him. He was acutely lonely. It was his wife who knew his truth and finally encouraged divorce. Their kids were grown and she wanted an authentic and full marriage. He wanted to actually live and not just exist. He finally went back to college, got a degree, then got a Masters, and moved to LA in his 60s. That is when he finally started being himself, and became openly gay.

He's the one who did more than just pat me on the head and tell me what a great artist I was for a kid, and instead actually
taught me how to make myself better. He helped me to put my portfolio together for my art supplement when I was applying to college this time last year. He insisted that I apply for an arts scholarship when I was being hyper-critical and defeatist, and he's the one who got me involved in art festivals where I actually sell my paintings and make a salary from my passion. He is also just the one who listens to me and gets me. I love him. I feel defensive of him. I feel angry at how Christians have treated him throughout his life. I feel grateful that he goes to a church now that is loving and grace-filled and where he can be himself and belong. He got married earlier this year (to a wonderful man he met at church), and I got to sing in his wedding. It was one of the loveliest honors of my life.

Sorry for rambling on...... I just started college and your post made me realize how much I miss him.

 

[SnowyMacie]

One of the reasons this teacher touched my heart and expanded my compassion so much was because he's old enough to be my grandfather, and he has gone through experiences kids my age haven't. He was raised in the southern part of Alabama in a Southern Baptist home where he was indoctrinated with the belief that homosexuality was an abomination, and believed from a young age through most of his life that he was defective. He knew he was gay very early on. His family knew, too. He said his father used to regularly beat him with a belt and pick switches from trees and strike him until he bled trying to get him to stop being effeminate and to be "normal"

The sad thing is that things like that still happen today, it was just a couple of years ago a North Carolina pastor caught national attention for preaching at parents to beat the gay out of their sons, whenever they begin showing any interest in "feminine" activities. I don't know any guy, gay or straight, that only ever played with boys toys and such growing up. It also reminds of that viral video on YouTube where this straight guys reads tweets from his LGBT followers when he asked him "If you had the choice, would you choose to be gay?" in response to another video of a kid coming out to his parents, who become angry and physically aggressive towards him, says "Listen to the hate and the anger in those people's voices...These people don't care about what God thinks, they care about the shame from the neighborhood from having a gay person under their roof." I think he hits a good point that I never thought about before, how much of it is really caring more what their friends and neighbors will think and simply using the Bible to justify it.

He desperately wanted to be like the other boys who liked girls, too. He prayed fervently every night for years to be changed. He felt afflicted. He dated girls in high school even though he wasn't attracted to them at all despite trying to be. He got married at age 19, mainly to please his family and didn't divorce until his mid-50s. He said he was always faithful, but that he felt a tremendous guilt the entire marriage because she loved him and he knew that she deserved better than to be with a husband who loved her sincerely but could not love her romantically. They had children together and built a typical life. He worked for his uncle's company as a roofer and in an assortment of jobs. He continued to pray that entire time, pleading with God to make him not be gay, and he quietly tried traditional therapy, church-based therapy, and "conversion therapy." He reached out to various charlatans for years that promised to "fix" him. He was acutely lonely. It was his wife who knew his truth and finally encouraged divorce. Their kids were grown and she wanted an authentic and full marriage. He wanted to actually live and not just exist. He finally went back to college, got a degree, then got a Masters, and moved to LA in his 60s. That is when he finally started being himself, and became openly gay.

There are plenty of stories out there like that, it's sad really.

He's the one who did more than just pat me on the head and tell me what a great artist I was for a kid, and instead actually
taught me how to make myself better. He helped me to put my portfolio together for my art supplement when I was applying to college this time last year. He insisted that I apply for an arts scholarship when I was being hyper-critical and defeatist, and he's the one who got me involved in art festivals where I actually sell my paintings and make a salary from my passion. He is also just the one who listens to me and gets me. I love him. I feel defensive of him. I feel angry at how Christians have treated him throughout his life. I feel grateful that he goes to a church now that is loving and grace-filled and where he can be himself and belong. He got married earlier this year (to a wonderful man he met at church), and I got to sing in his wedding. It was one of the loveliest honors of my life.

That's great! That is also reminded me of the outspoken conservatives I've encountered growing up into college compared to the liberals. It's a big part of why I believe what I believe. As I mentioned earlier with that econ teacher, there was so much more conformity and hatred coming from them, whereas more liberals were always the ones who were supportive and encouraging.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

Do you guys believe it's possible to get through to conservatives that the way they act is often harmful and not conducive to acting like Christ? Every discussion that comes up about something they disagree with, especially LGBT people, turns into a trash show acting like those people are the biggest demons in the world. Do conservatives really not understand how much harm and suffering they cause LGBT people to constantly be viewed/treated like that?

What is the solution, just force gays to be lonely and miserable for the rest of their life due to some archaic legalistic rules that make no logical sense? It makes no sense to me and makes it hard for me not to hold resentment towards them and Christianity as a whole. Just seems like a hopeless situation.

The christian religious reaction to LGBT comes from the flesh, which is why it is so violent.

Look at the fruit of the spirit, and then compare how they treat people who sin the same as them.

birds of a feather as they say.

 

[Marius27]

So just heard the news story that Kim Davis got a private meeting with the Pope in DC while she was at the FRC Values Summit meeting. That really makes me lose some respect for the Pope. He shouldn't be getting involved with some religious extremist who sees wealth, fame, discrimination, lying, and forcing your beliefs on others to be Christian virtues.

 

[Martinius]

So just heard the news story that Kim Davis got a private meeting with the Pope in DC while she was at the FRC Values Summit meeting. That really makes me lose some respect for the Pope. He shouldn't be getting involved with some religious extremist who sees wealth, fame, discrimination, lying, and forcing your beliefs on others to be Christian virtues.

I am waiting to hear what really happened. The Pope and the Vatican may have been blind sided with this one, not being aware of the whole situation. Similar to their concerns about all the "anti-Catholic" people the Prez invited to the White House. Getting a photo op with a politician or other famous person is not that difficult, and there have been many "oops" later on. I also wonder what is meant by "meeting" and what the exact situation was.

 

[Albion]

So just heard the news story that Kim Davis got a private meeting with the Pope in DC while she was at the FRC Values Summit meeting. That really makes me lose some respect for the Pope. He shouldn't be getting involved with some religious extremist who sees wealth, fame, discrimination, lying, and forcing your beliefs on others to be Christian virtues.

He met with Obama, didn't he?

 

[Marius27]

He met with Obama, didn't he?

Red herring. He didn't meet with Obama to congratulate him on his religious convictions. It would be odd for the Pope to not meet with the leader of the country he was visiting. On the other hand, calling for a private meeting to applaud a woman who most Christians disagree with and who goes against everything Jesus stood for is very uncharacteristic of this Pope.

 

[Albion]

Red herring.

Always a colorful reply. I like "Strawman," too. The point is that he met with other people who fit basically the same description, so the attempt to make out that his meeting with Kim Davis was somehow shocking or that he was too out of touch with the news everyone else is familiar with to know who she was is kinda silly, don't you know?

 

[Marius27]

Always a colorful reply. I like "Strawman," too. The point is that he met with other people who fit basically the same description, so the attempt to make out that his meeting with Kim Davis was somehow shocking or that he was too out of touch with the news everyone else is familiar with to know who she was is kinda silly, don't you know?

Not really. Had she been at a public rally and he happened to go up to her would be one thing. A secret meeting to applaud a woman like her is just in bad taste.

 

[Gregory Thompson]

hmmm i'd suppose to get through to conservatives ... the ideology of liberal and conservative would need to be less polarized so people "in the middle" considering all ideas would actually feel welcome on either side. When a divide like that exists, the bridge group of people just end up being another separate group.

 

[Ada Lovelace]

So just heard the news story that Kim Davis got a private meeting with the Pope in DC while she was at the FRC Values Summit meeting. That really makes me lose some respect for the Pope. He shouldn't be getting involved with some religious extremist who sees wealth, fame, discrimination, lying, and forcing your beliefs on others to be Christian virtues.

It was Kim Davis' attorney who publicly bragged about her having met with the Pope, and from the beginning I felt like things weren't as they were being assumed to be.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/03/world/europe/pope-francis-kim-davis-meeting.html?_r=0

An excerpt of the article:

VATICAN CITY — Ever since it became public that Pope Francis met in Washington with Kim Davis, the Kentucky county clerk who refused to issue marriage licenses for same-sex couples, the questions have been swirling: Why did he meet with her, and was it meant as a political statement?

As it turns out, the Vatican said on Friday, the pope did not mean to endorse Ms. Davis’s views. It also said he gave her no more than a typical brief greeting, despite what her lawyer described.

Instead, the Vatican said that Francis gave only one “real audience”: to someone later identified as one of his former students, Yayo Grassi, a gay man in Washington who says he brought his partner of 19 years to the Vatican’s embassy in Washington for a reunion. They even shot video

 

[Marius27]

So in other words, her attorneys and her lied again. Such Christian virtue.

 

[Martinius]

Based on what I have read in regard to who set this up, I would expect our Apostolic Nuncio to be moved to an unimportant post, or simply retired, after a reasonable passage of time.

 

[Jack of Spades]

Do you guys believe it's possible to get through to conservatives that the way they act is often harmful and not conducive to acting like Christ? ... Just seems like a hopeless situation.

I think it's quite contrary to hopeless for liberals. Time will likely do the job. Social forces in the west appear to be geared against conservative Christians positions. Look how everyone in US and Europe felt about these things 50 years back and compare situation to present day and you see what I mean. It's basicly the same phenomenon as it's been with women, slaves etc.

I make a prediction that 150 years in the future, everybody accepts gays and SSM in the western world and hot topic of they day is should androids be allowed to marry with cyborgs. Because everyone who actually remembers what happened during "the great gay controversy" is by then dead, conservative Christian apologists will be arguing that historical proof for conservative Christianis always being right is that conservatives widely supported gay rights (now universally accepted good thing) before anyone else did it. And because conservatives have never bullied anyone in history, this time they can be against android-cyborg marriages and it's not discrimination.

 

[RedPonyDriver]

I think the issue the conservatives have with the "pro-choice" folks is this...as one who falls in the "pro-choice" camp, I will give my reasons and an explanation of it.
First off...pro-choice DOES NOT equal "pro-abortion"...honestly, I do not think there is ONE person on the planet who is "pro-abortion". I am pro-choice because I believe, firmly that the choice is not mine to make for someone else. Outlawing abortion will not stop abortion...comprehensive sex-ed and easier access to contraception (and stopping the lies about contraception) will reduce the abortion rate. Conservatives want to CONTROL all women's decisions about their own bodies and futures. IF conservatives are so "pro-life" then why do they oppose social safety nets such as medicaid, SNAP and TANF? They want a child born but not fed, clothed, housed or educated. You can't have it both ways. Either you're pro-life and accept your social responsibility to see that those children you want born are also cared for, or you leave each woman or couple to make their own choice in private.

Regarding SSM and the SCOTUS decision...the matter decided was a CIVIL matter. Churches have the right to deny performing SSM's if they so choose. However, a civil ceremony is NOT the same as a church ceremony. They are two different things. One is being married under current US law, where SCOTUS affirmed that the 14th amendment applies to this matter, and the other is being married in a church ceremony. There are open and affirming churches that WILL perform a religious ceremony for SS couples and there are churches that won't. Denying LBGTQ people the same rights under the law is discriminatory and WRONG. It is saying that a certain segment of the population is not worthy of the same legal protections another is...that was struck down with the passage of the 14th amendment. So...you can oppose it all you want but until you understand the difference between CIVIL and RELIGIOUS (and stop trying to blend the two...see the 1st amendment to the constitution), you are dead wrong.

It seems that for conservatives...there is no middle ground, no "live and let live". For most of us who are liberals...preservation of civil rights is paramount.

 

[Marius27]

It seems that for conservatives...there is no middle ground, no "live and let live". For most of us who are liberals...preservation of civil rights is paramount.

Correct. It's their way, or you're defying God purposely. As the Catholics said here, even secular same-sex marriage is not a legitimate marriage and thus should not be allowed.

 

[Albion]

Hmm. Those are strange comments if meant seriously.

Conservatives by nature are more tolerant of other people than are Liberals. Liberals are usually "tolerant" only to the extent of tolerating those causes and people that agree with their socio-political perspective.

It doesn't take remarkable powers of observation to recognize that Liberals are frequently vehemently intolerant of those who don't share their biases and worldview. And this is entirely understandable, when you think about it. Modern Liberalism is oriented towards intellectual conformity, coercive governmental policies, and a hostile attitude concerning the existing social order--whatever it might be at any given place and time.