• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

How to get through to Conservatives?

Marius27

Newbie
Feb 16, 2013
3,039
495
✟6,009.00
Faith
Messianic
Politics
US-Democrat
Do you guys believe it's possible to get through to conservatives that the way they act is often harmful and not conducive to acting like Christ? Every discussion that comes up about something they disagree with, especially LGBT people, turns into a trash show acting like those people are the biggest demons in the world. Do conservatives really not understand how much harm and suffering they cause LGBT people to constantly be viewed/treated like that?

What is the solution, just force gays to be lonely and miserable for the rest of their life due to some archaic legalistic rules that make no logical sense? It makes no sense to me and makes it hard for me not to hold resentment towards them and Christianity as a whole. Just seems like a hopeless situation.
 

Martinius

Catholic disciple of Jesus
Jul 2, 2010
3,573
2,915
The woods and lakes of the Great North
✟67,725.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
No, won't happen. Please realize that being a member of a "Christian" religion does not make one Christian. Also realize that some people will demonize anyone who is "different" from themselves, whether it is due to skin color, place of birth, culture, language, economic level, religion, place of residence or sexual orientation.

But don't blame Christianity for the faults and failures of those who claim to be Christian. Instead, know that Jesus has demonstrated that God embraces all of us, and has a special love for the poor, the despised and the oppressed, the "least among us". They get to enter the Kingdom first.

For your personal well being, please seek out a faith group that is welcoming of all. They exist, and will likely provide you with a better understanding of true Christian Faith and love.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ada Lovelace
Upvote 0

graceandpeace

Episcopalian
Sep 12, 2013
2,985
574
✟29,685.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
Do you guys believe it's possible to get through to conservatives that the way they act is often harmful and not conducive to acting like Christ? Every discussion that comes up about something they disagree with, especially LGBT people, turns into a trash show acting like those people are the biggest demons in the world. Do conservatives really not understand how much harm and suffering they cause LGBT people to constantly be viewed/treated like that?

What is the solution, just force gays to be lonely and miserable for the rest of their life due to some archaic legalistic rules that make no logical sense? It makes no sense to me and makes it hard for me not to hold resentment towards them and Christianity as a whole. Just seems like a hopeless situation.

Honestly, until conservatives-evangelicals are willing to listen, it is pointless to engage with them. It will likely take either intellectual curiosity or forming a meaningful relationship with someone in the LGBT community to change their minds. For me, it was both of those things that helped me change my mind.

Many mainline Christian churches are overall accepting of LGBT persons.
 
Upvote 0

SnowyMacie

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2011
17,008
6,087
North Texas
✟125,659.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
In Relationship
Honestly, until conservatives-evangelicals are willing to listen, it is pointless to engage with them. It will likely take either intellectual curiosity or forming a meaningful relationship with someone in the LGBT community to change their minds. For me, it was both of those things that helped me change my mind.

Many mainline Christian churches are overall accepting of LGBT persons.

Exactly. Until everyone is willing to listen and engage in meaningful dialogue, change will not happen. Personally, I came from a conservative house and was very conservative growing up. In fact, so conservative that I went to my high school counselor to ask to be moved into a different speech class because I did not want to have a gay teacher. He obviously got wind of it, and sat me down in private to discuss it. He said that he understood where I had come from, and said that he is not going to force me to stay or leave, but that I couldn't stay in my Christian bubble forever. He was very respectful of me and my opinions, and I ultimately decided to stay. It was the seed the planted my change of heart.
 
Upvote 0

GillDouglas

Reformed Christian
Dec 21, 2013
1,117
450
USA
Visit site
✟36,925.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Do you guys believe it's possible to get through to conservatives that the way they act is often harmful and not conducive to acting like Christ? Every discussion that comes up about something they disagree with, especially LGBT people, turns into a trash show acting like those people are the biggest demons in the world. Do conservatives really not understand how much harm and suffering they cause LGBT people to constantly be viewed/treated like that?

What is the solution, just force gays to be lonely and miserable for the rest of their life due to some archaic legalistic rules that make no logical sense? It makes no sense to me and makes it hard for me not to hold resentment towards them and Christianity as a whole. Just seems like a hopeless situation.
I feel that you are overgeneralizing the opinions and words of those you call 'conservative' who would also disagree with you concerning the life choices of those, who I am assuming claim to be Christian, not necessarily LGBT individuals in general. In my honest opinion, if you claim to subscribe to what it means to be a Christian then you begin to put away the worldly and fleshly desires that plague the unrepentant, unsaved man through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

I struggled with many things in my youth; lust, stealing, deceiving and other various acts of a worldly and sinful person. I felt no guilt or remorse for the way I was living until God interceded. I am no longer bound by the sin of my youth, fully aware of the harm and suffering it causes. While I of course struggle with sin, I can recognize it and turn away. So if there are others like me who once lived in sin, awakened to the truth and now claim Christ as their Savior yet continue to live in sin, that's when 'conservatives' like me must speak. Some do so better than others, and many not with a Christlike example.

There is plenty of scripture to back up the fact that woman was made for man and a man shall not lie with anyone or anything but the woman who is his wife. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Leviticus 20:13-15, 1 Timothy 1:10-11) When we see our brothers and sisters struggling with this sin, we must do what we can to help them get back on the path of righteousness. I will not change my opinions about homosexuality simply because our culture views it as outdated, unwarranted or unbiblical. While your point of the way a conservative individual who poorly approaches the issue is true, there is nothing any man could say that would change my views and those who firmly believe.
 
Upvote 0

Marius27

Newbie
Feb 16, 2013
3,039
495
✟6,009.00
Faith
Messianic
Politics
US-Democrat
I feel that you are overgeneralizing the opinions and words of those you call 'conservative' who would also disagree with you concerning the life choices of those, who I am assuming claim to be Christian, not necessarily LGBT individuals in general. In my honest opinion, if you claim to subscribe to what it means to be a Christian then you begin to put away the worldly and fleshly desires that plague the unrepentant, unsaved man through the guidance of the Holy Spirit.
Doesn't stop people from wanting to pursue love and relationships.

I struggled with many things in my youth; lust, stealing, deceiving and other various acts of a worldly and sinful person. I felt no guilt or remorse for the way I was living until God interceded. I am no longer bound by the sin of my youth, fully aware of the harm and suffering it causes. While I of course struggle with sin, I can recognize it and turn away. So if there are others like me who once lived in sin, awakened to the truth and now claim Christ as their Savior yet continue to live in sin, that's when 'conservatives' like me must speak. Some do so better than others, and many not with a Christlike example.
The problem is you assume everything you believe regarding sin is automatically right and that you can't be wrong.

There is plenty of scripture to back up the fact that woman was made for man and a man shall not lie with anyone or anything but the woman who is his wife. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11, Leviticus 20:13-15, 1 Timothy 1:10-11)
Well, this is the liberal forum so we do not interpret those verses the way you do and if you were to actually study those verses carefully and not just superficially read the English text, you would learn they are not referring to modern day gay people. Homosexual wasn't even added to Corinthians or Timothy until the mid-20th Century, and it doesn't refer to homosexual women. And Leviticus deals with ritual prohibitions among the Israelites and pagan prostitution.

I will not change my opinions about homosexuality simply because our culture views it as outdated, unwarranted or unbiblical.
Living in ignorance is certainly a choice. But keep in mind those beliefs do cause a lot of suffering. Thus I'm not going to change my stance about the harm conservative beliefs cause.

While your point of the way a conservative individual who poorly approaches the issue is true, there is nothing any man could say that would change my views and those who firmly believe.
Sounds like pride to me. An unwillingness to accept you might be wrong. The Church supported the notion that the Sun revolves around the Earth for a long time, because their understanding of the Bible says it does. The Church was clearly wrong. The Church blindly read the "thou shall not suffer a witch to live" verse, and burned alive/murdered thousands of women in Europe and America despite the original meaning of the verse referring to women who murder others using poison. The overwhelming majority of the women killed were innocent of such charges. Over 90% of Americans objected to interracial marriage on Biblical grounds. The Jews have suffered at the hands of Christians for the past 2000 years due to Jewish leaders calling on Romans to execute Jesus. Gays are just the modern day target for self-righteous Christians who use the Bible as a weapon of hate, instead of a tool of love. Christians have been wrong numerous times in the past with disastrous consequences. This is no different.
 
Upvote 0

Soyeong

Well-Known Member
Mar 10, 2015
12,632
4,675
Hudson
✟342,792.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Single
Do you guys believe it's possible to get through to conservatives that the way they act is often harmful and not conducive to acting like Christ? Every discussion that comes up about something they disagree with, especially LGBT people, turns into a trash show acting like those people are the biggest demons in the world. Do conservatives really not understand how much harm and suffering they cause LGBT people to constantly be viewed/treated like that?

What is the solution, just force gays to be lonely and miserable for the rest of their life due to some archaic legalistic rules that make no logical sense? It makes no sense to me and makes it hard for me not to hold resentment towards them and Christianity as a whole. Just seems like a hopeless situation.

We are to be in the world, not of the world. If God's truth is archaic and unacceptable to you and to them, then so be it. Of course this doesn't mean that we should mistreat LGBT people, but we should not condone sin or seek to excuse it. There is nothing about a not having a piece of paper that forces them to be lonely and miserable.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,127
33,262
✟583,992.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Do you guys believe it's possible to get through to conservatives that the way they act is often harmful and not conducive to acting like Christ? Every discussion that comes up about something they disagree with, especially LGBT people, turns into a trash show acting like those people are the biggest demons in the world. Do conservatives really not understand how much harm and suffering they cause LGBT people to constantly be viewed/treated like that?

The answer you're seeking does not lie in dividing people into camps or in berating some of them for doing exactly what many on the other side do as well. The defects in that particular approach should be obvious. Only an approach that rises above such partisanship can succeed.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

GillDouglas

Reformed Christian
Dec 21, 2013
1,117
450
USA
Visit site
✟36,925.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
Doesn't stop people from wanting to pursue love and relationships.
It is your stance that everyone should follow their heart and have all that they desire then? "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" (Jeremiah 17:9) "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the heart." (Proverbs 4:23)

The problem is you assume everything you believe regarding sin is automatically right and that you can't be wrong.
All are born in sin and fall short. "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5) "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) Those who know God's law and yet disobey Him, live in sin. "So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin." (James 4:17) Sin only brings death unless one turns away and repents. "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23)

Well, this is the liberal forum so we do not interpret those verses the way you do and if you were to actually study those verses carefully and not just superficially read the English text, you would learn they are not referring to modern day gay people. Homosexual wasn't even added to Corinthians or Timothy until the mid-20th Century, and it doesn't refer to homosexual women. And Leviticus deals with ritual prohibitions among the Israelites and pagan prostitution.
This is just ridiculous. How was the homosexual of those days any different from today? Are they somehow more sophisticated today than the gays of antiquity, and that makes them unique or exempt from God's word? No homosexual who lives in their sin will go to heaven, unless they turn away from it in repentance.

Living in ignorance is certainly a choice. But keep in mind those beliefs do cause a lot of suffering. Thus I'm not going to change my stance about the harm conservative beliefs cause.
Sometimes the truth does hurt, and it can be devastating for families who deal with this. "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)

Sounds like pride to me. An unwillingness to accept you might be wrong. The Church supported the notion that the Sun revolves around the Earth for a long time, because their understanding of the Bible says it does. The Church was clearly wrong. The Church blindly read the "thou shall not suffer a witch to live" verse, and burned alive/murdered thousands of women in Europe and America despite the original meaning of the verse referring to women who murder others using poison. The overwhelming majority of the women killed were innocent of such charges. Over 90% of Americans objected to interracial marriage on Biblical grounds. The Jews have suffered at the hands of Christians for the past 2000 years due to Jewish leaders calling on Romans to execute Jesus. Gays are just the modern day target for self-righteous Christians who use the Bible as a weapon of hate, instead of a tool of love. Christians have been wrong numerous times in the past with disastrous consequences. This is no different.
You'd be mistaken in your assumption of my character. I am first to admit wrong, and often I am. Of the many sins I struggle with pride is not often one of them. Many Christians and the 'Church' have been wrong many times for many years, and continue to do so. You are assuming that my understanding of the word comes from the 'Church' or somewhere else. I was not raised in the church, and I spent most of my life an Atheist. My understanding comes from years of study since I came to know the Lord four years ago. It is my belief that a true Christian does not use the Bible as a weapon of hate to hurt, humiliate or destroy the lives of sinful people. A true Christian loves God first and his neighbor second, regardless of any distinguishing characteristic of that person. We are all sinners, and struggle with it. We can certainly sympathize with those who struggle in the same areas we have. We did not have a self-righteous Savior who didn't suffer as we do, in fact quite the opposite, wouldn't we attempt to be like Him if we are truly His?

If we did not care for a persons salvation, we wouldn't bother saying anything at all to those we believe are living in sin. Not one can truly and fully understand the workings of our Creator, and for anyone to claim they do is both prideful and wrong. It is He who decides who shall enter Heaven, and who does not. He wrote the story and He has the absolute right to decide how the story unfolds.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

SnowyMacie

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2011
17,008
6,087
North Texas
✟125,659.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
In Relationship
It is your stance that everyone should follow their heart and have all that they desire then? "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" (Jeremiah 17:9) "Every way of a man is right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the heart." (Proverbs 4:23)

All are born in sin and fall short. "Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin did my mother conceive me." (Psalm 51:5) "For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Romans 3:23) Those who know God's law and yet disobey Him, live in sin. "So whoever knows the right thing to do and fails to do it, for him it is sin." (James 4:17) Sin only brings death unless one turns away and repents. "For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord." (Romans 6:23)

This is just ridiculous. How was the homosexual of those days any different from today? Are they somehow more sophisticated today than the gays of antiquity, and that makes them unique or exempt from God's word? No homosexual who lives in their sin will go to heaven, unless they turn away from it in repentance.

Sometimes the truth does hurt, and it can be devastating for families who deal with this. "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God." (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)

You'd be mistaken in your assumption of my character. I am first to admit wrong, and often I am. Of the many sins I struggle with pride is not often one of them. Many Christians and the 'Church' have been wrong many times for many years, and continue to do so. You are assuming that my understanding of the word comes from the 'Church' or somewhere else. I was not raised in the church, and I spent most of my life an Atheist. My understanding comes from years of study since I came to know the Lord four years ago. It is my belief that a true Christian does not use the Bible as a weapon of hate to hurt, humiliate or destroy the lives of sinful people. A true Christian loves God first and his neighbor second, regardless of any distinguishing characteristic of that person. We are all sinners, and struggle with it. We can certainly sympathize with those who struggle in the same areas we have. We did not have a self-righteous Savior who didn't suffer as we do, in fact quite the opposite, wouldn't we attempt to be like Him if we are truly His?

If we did not care for a persons salvation, we wouldn't bother saying anything at all to those we believe are living in sin. Not one can truly and fully understand the workings of our Creator, and for anyone to claim they do is both prideful and wrong. It is He who decides who shall enter Heaven, and who does not. He wrote the story and He has the absolute right to decide how the story unfolds.

If you do not agree with our views, you cannot post here, especially if it is to debate or disagree with our views. "if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic." It's literally our only rule.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/whosoever-will-may-come-statement-of-purpose.7890671/
 
Upvote 0

Marius27

Newbie
Feb 16, 2013
3,039
495
✟6,009.00
Faith
Messianic
Politics
US-Democrat
We are to be in the world, not of the world. If God's truth is archaic and unacceptable to you and to them, then so be it.
I'm not of this word. I just don't consider the conservative view to be in line with God's view.

There is nothing about a not having a piece of paper that forces them to be lonely and miserable.
No, forbidding them from ever being in a relationship is what leads to being lonely and miserable.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ada Lovelace
Upvote 0

graceandpeace

Episcopalian
Sep 12, 2013
2,985
574
✟29,685.00
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Private
Politics
US-Democrat
The answer you're seeking does not lie in dividing people into camps or in berating some of them for doing exactly what many on the other side do as well. The defects in that particular approach should be obvious. Only an approach that rises above such partisanship can succeed.

That's a fair point.

I took the OP to be somewhat venting. I would hope in an honest conversation with persons we disagree with, we would not berate them & would try to listen.
 
Upvote 0

GillDouglas

Reformed Christian
Dec 21, 2013
1,117
450
USA
Visit site
✟36,925.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Married
If you do not agree with our views, you cannot post here, especially if it is to debate or disagree with our views. "if you are not a member of this faith group, you may not debate issues or teach against it's theology. You may post in fellowship. Active promotion of views contrary to the established teachings of this group will be considered off topic." It's literally our only rule.

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/whosoever-will-may-come-statement-of-purpose.7890671/
I'm curious as to the point of a forum where everyone agrees. It seems that little discussion and even less progress can come from that. I do apologize if my point of view does not agree with yours or the OPs. My only intention was to help the OP understand the point of view of the generalized individuals ('Conservatives') he's frustrated with to further grasp the stance from which we voice our opinions. God bless.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Saricharity
Upvote 0

SnowyMacie

Well-Known Member
Apr 12, 2011
17,008
6,087
North Texas
✟125,659.00
Country
United States
Gender
Female
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
In Relationship
I'm curious as to the point of a forum where everyone agrees. It seems that little discussion and even less progress can come from that.

Fellowship and discussion. We may all agree on the main views, but still may have different perspectives and reasoning to do so. I find it refreshing to have a play to discuss issues with people that have similar views as me, I don't need to debate constantly to progress in mine, I can be challenged to explore my own views from those who know more than I if they still agree with me.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Ada Lovelace
Upvote 0

hedrick

Senior Veteran
Site Supporter
Feb 8, 2009
20,479
10,846
New Jersey
✟1,309,078.00
Faith
Presbyterian
Marital Status
Single
In my opinion the difference between conservative Protestant, mainline / liberal Protestant, and Catholic is sufficiently major that most attempts to convince are hopeless. Conservatives simply don’t recognize the validity of evidence, as I understand it. Nor do I accept their standards. There are huge differences in our core concepts, including our source of authority. My suspicion is that moving between those positions is more like changing religions than being convinced on a specific issue by a particularly cogent piece of exegesis.

What makes people change religions? I can only guess, but I conjecture that it has more to do with personal experiences with various communities, and events going on in our lives. I very much doubt that you can argue someone into being a Christian. (One of our previous pastors claims to have been changed from atheist to Christian by the ontological argument, but I think he background also tended to push him into being a Christian.)

This goes for people who are actually committed to the position of their orientations. Many Christians are, of course, neither all that well educated nor that committed to a specific theological viewpoint. Even in that case, however, I conjecture that most changes are for practical or personal reasons. E.g. our congregation has a number of former Catholics. Mostly they seem to be with us because they experienced (either personally or within their family) the consequences of the legalistic approach that the Catholic Church tends to take to gender / sexual issues, particularly in the case of marriage and divorce. I don’t get the impression that any of these people was strongly committed to the whole Catholic theological system, nor are they now to ours.
 
Upvote 0

Martinius

Catholic disciple of Jesus
Jul 2, 2010
3,573
2,915
The woods and lakes of the Great North
✟67,725.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Hedrick makes an excellent observation at the end of his post (but then, his posts are consistently excellent). There are many reasons that people choose a church or switch churches, but theology is not usually a major factor. Usually it revolves around more personal issues and local issues, according to a Pew survey about this. Being versed in theology is not at the top of most people's "need to know" list. Specific teachings can be a factor, but only if they are really applied and how authoritatively. For example, if the Catholic Church had applied its doctrine on artificial contraception more emphatically for the past 50 years, the pews would have emptied much more quickly than they have.

People with strong convictions will not usually be moved from their positions, and in my view it would be a waste of time and energy to try. I have a good friend who holds political views very contrary to mine, and we have spirited discussions. I don't really expect to get him to change his views, but we force each other to think more about what we each believe and why.
 
Last edited:
Upvote 0

Martinius

Catholic disciple of Jesus
Jul 2, 2010
3,573
2,915
The woods and lakes of the Great North
✟67,725.00
Country
United States
Gender
Male
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Married
Maybe Christianity doesn't work as advertised. Maybe the good, kind, loving Christians would be that way no matter what faith or lack of they had.
I think you have hit on something. A couple of years back I saw the results of a study that showed no appreciable difference between professed Christians and others regarding ethical and moral behavior. I would have expected some difference, but no.

You may consider me cynical for saying this, but my decades of experience and observation indicate to me that a majority of Christians really make little attempt at BEING Christian in their lives, all the time. Many seem to slip in and out of a "Christian mode", such as when they are in church or teaching their children vs. when they are in other everyday social situations. It is not easy to find people who consistently follow the Gospel.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Press On
Upvote 0