How to explain to Armenians

[frumanchu]

I'm usually careful to use the term only in specific reference to historical positions. I actually have a fair amount of resource material on what Arminius actually believed and taught (I love pulling out his quote regarding Calvin's commentaries being second only to Scripture in their value). Otherwise, I generally stick to the specific doctrines. I don't use the term nearly as much as I used to.

 

[michaelmonfre]

To Respond To An Arminian: I Would First Prove Man It Totaly Depraved.

Romans 3:10 Says There Is No One Righteous, No Not One, There Is None Who Understands, There Is None Who Seeks For God.

Since A Dead Corpse Does Not Come To Christ Then There Is No Hope Unless God Draws Him. John 6:44 The Word Draw Means To Drag.

Jacob I Loved, Esau I Hated This Is In Romans. This Is About Election.
Defend The Reformed View In Romans 9. Ephesians Deals With Predestination.

The Arminian Buzzword Is "freewill" . A Nonchristian Does Have A Free Will But Free To Sin. That Is The Extent Of His Freedom. Only When One Is A Christian Can One Truly Have A Free Will. A Non-christian Will Never Chose Christ Apart From The Saving Power Of Christ. There Is A Verse In The Bible That Speaks Of God Granting Repentance To An Individual. Repentance Comes From God Not From Man.

 

[Croooz]

To Respond To An Arminian: I Would First Prove Man It Totaly Depraved.

Romans 3:10 Says There Is No One Righteous, No Not One, There Is None Who Understands, There Is None Who Seeks For God.

Since A Dead Corpse Does Not Come To Christ Then There Is No Hope Unless God Draws Him. John 6:44 The Word Draw Means To Drag.

Jacob I Loved, Esau I Hated This Is In Romans. This Is About Election.
Defend The Reformed View In Romans 9. Ephesians Deals With Predestination.

The Arminian Buzzword Is "freewill" . A Nonchristian Does Have A Free Will But Free To Sin. That Is The Extent Of His Freedom. Only When One Is A Christian Can One Truly Have A Free Will. A Non-christian Will Never Chose Christ Apart From The Saving Power Of Christ. There Is A Verse In The Bible That Speaks Of God Granting Repentance To An Individual. Repentance Comes From God Not From Man.

Been there, done that. My church 99.999999% Arminian and the Pastor asked me to give a one night bible study on election. It wasn't a catastrophe but I was shocked at how it truly is a revelation of the Holy Spirit and not anything you can show someone. Logic, reason, or anything else doesn't matter....the beloved HS has to open their hearts & minds or your talking to a crowd of pews. It was more of a learning and humbling experience for me to realize that thru everything it's all about G-d and not about me. Afterword the flashback wasn't bad but it's "interesting".

I didn't have an issue with the older members (50+) because I figured they'd be set in their ways. What I was surprised with were the members who are trying to "make a name for themselves" in the church who immediately grabbed me up and began to bombard me with "knowledge". By the end of my ambush I was accused of bringing division into the church and they would begin to pray that G-d would show me the truth...


I've decided to engulf myself in Reformed teachings and make my commute time into seminary time. I'm looking into purchasing the Predestination CD series by Dr. Gentry and a new CD player for my car to go with it. I guess the prayers are working.

 

[frumanchu]

I've decided to engulf myself in Reformed teachings and make my commute time into seminary time. I'm looking into purchasing the Predestination CD series by Dr. Gentry and a new CD player for my car to go with it. I guess the prayers are working.

Excellent idea. If I may, I would recommend spending the extra money to get an MP3 CD player. There are tons of free or very cheap resources that you can get on MP3, and you can fit so much more onto one CD. I've set about the task of converting all my RC Sproul tapes to MP3. I can fit several entire lecture series on one CD. I also have an audio Bible set on MP3 (although it's NIV...blech), which is a lot more convenient than having an entire CD case of regular CDs for an audio Bible. They're read by Max McLean, and let me tell you listening to the OT read by him is excellent.

Let me know if you get one and I can point you in the direction of some MP3 resources and maybe mail you a couple CDs.

 

[JJB]

We have the Max McLean bible on CD. He is an excellent reader. My husband uses his commute time to listen to that.

Crooz, if you get an MP3 player I'll be sooooo green. We would like one so that we can listen to all the things frumanchu has listed! One day.........perhaps sooner than we think as the CD player in our car is acting a little lopsided on occasion.

 

[frumanchu]

JJB, this is the one I bought: http://www.overstock.com/sm-jvc-kd-g510-jvc-in-dash-cd-player--pg-proframe_pi-1146979_ti-82124.html

I think I picked it up for about the same price last year. There are some cheaper MP3 CD players, but I got this one specifically for the front aux input. That way I can hook up either my external MP3 player or, more importantly, my Sony cassette walkman so I can still listen to the stuff I have on cassette.

One of the best and most-used purchases I have ever made. If you get one, be sure to get on monergism.com's mailing list because they've been doing a lot of free MP3 cds (you only pay $5 s/h) lately. I grabbed a CD of John Piper's sermons a couple months back and it was outstanding.

 

[JJB]

I also got that Piper CD in faith! One day!

I can listen to it on the computer, but it's a busy machine in our household and the competition is high for time on it!

Thanks for the link!

 

[Croooz]

Thanks for the MP3 recommendation. I'll make sure the player I get can read MP3 files.

I bought Max' MP3 Bible ESV a few months back. That's how I listen to the Word now. It's amusing because I read on here a little while ago someone post that "I believe the Bible when it say faith comes by hearing and that's why I read my Bible...". Hearing is not the same as reading.

I usually go to sleep with a DVD playing and I've been switching that to listening to Romans and Ephesians and it's incredible. The other thing I've noticed is I'm having problems just quoting a verse of scripture. I was reading some of the WOF's post and noticing that they had the verse right but the context was not in synch with the letter to the Romans. So I just began to read the letter to the Romans without paying attention to chapters or anything like that. I read the letter, like....a letter. It brought the book to life for me. This practise has also made it difficult for me to listen to a sermon based on a sentence of scripture. The speaker then extrapolates some righteous sounding doctrine but what I've begun to find is they've misunderstood or misinterpreted or a forcing the text to fit their message.......AND IT DOESN'T!

Frumanchu, I'll definitely take you up on that offer.

 

[Jon_]

It's amusing because I read on here a little while ago someone post that "I believe the Bible when it say faith comes by hearing and that's why I read my Bible...". Hearing is not the same as reading.

Ah, but finish the verse! (Rom. 10:17) Whence comes hearing? "By the word of God."

(BTW, I know you were kidding. )

Soli Deo Gloria

Jon

 

[JJB]

Fru,

I have kind of a techie question for you: How did you have that JVC player installed into your car?

 

[frumanchu]

Fru,

I have kind of a techie question for you: How did you have that JVC player installed into your car?

When I ordered it the company included a wire harness adapter kit specific to my car make/model, so I sat right here at my desk, matched the colors, and spliced the wires together. I have a 94 Escort and swapping it out was pretty simple.

 

[frumanchu]

Tell you what, PM me if you have any other questions. We're kinda pulling ohgin's thread off topic

 

[Imblessed]

I was a solid Arminian until a couple years ago. I'd say to challenge their view of the sovereignty of God. I was guilty of saying that God couldn't (fill in the blank) until I was challenged. The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God who parted the Red Sea, the God who is enthroned in Heaven is able to do whatever He pleases.

Most Arminian teaching takes a very man-centered approach to salvation. But the Bible says that "In the beginning... GOD" We need to be open and offer answers to the questions that come up. Many come up in this very forum, as well as the general apologetics. I am not a firm believer in a setting that pits one Christian against the other, for when one person takes the offensive position, the other instinctively takes a defensive position.

Also, when an Arminian begins to accept the Biblical-ness of Calvinism, they can be very angry. I felt betrayed by everyone who ever held any sort of leadership role in the churches I grew up in for not telling me about this. I judged them and began to get very heady, believing I was better than them. Honestly, I should have been thrown into a cage until I got over it.

This is one of those dicipleship times. We need to be gentle and loving with these people, showing them the love within the doctrines of grace. We need to correct them, and remind them to remain humble through the process. We need to forgive them in advance, for I can't think of anyone I have ever discussed this matter with who didn't get abusive. All of this requires prayer, that the Holy Spirit would reveal the love of God to them and that He would give us a serving heart to withstand the emotion.

Anyway, that's my short answer...

in short.....

 

[Bill777]

Let say that an armenian tells you to expalain to him logically how is it possible that we got chosen by God. How will you explain to him?

It's simple. God chooses us, we do not choose God. It ends there. God chose Israel only (not Egypt or any other country) in the old testament and Arminians didn't have a problem with that. The God of the old testament chose his people and so does the God of the new testament. He is the same God and he chooses his people. That's the way God works, he chooses his people, the bible is crystal clear on this.

Best way to explain election to anybody is have them read from the latter part of Romans 8 to the end of Romans 11. That's predestination explained at its best, any other bible passage should be interpreted in this context.