Hello, I am Kim, I am new here on this board...I was recently Baptized into the Adventist church last Sabbath...I am a part of this online mommy group and we started a forum called do you believe, well I asked a questions about if people believed in the rapture, I stated my Adventists beliefs as best as I could...I got this reply from a woman who apparently has completley opposite beliefs...and I have no idea how to answer her to help her understand without writing a book, is this possible? Is there a starting point where I can start at taking baby steps?? I really want to help her start to understand the truth...thank you, I will paste it below
Ok, now that I have had some more time to study (which I have done ALOT of today) about this subject I feel I am better able to express my beliefs. Since I had never heard of the rapture being called "secret" I had to read through Kim's post to see what that meant. I do believe in a secret rapture. I believe that we will be taken up with Christ in the twinkling of an eye (as the verse has already been brought out). I am getting ahead of myself though. LOL I hope that you are willing to go through and read my thoughts, they will be lengthy,but I wanted to reply to most of what has been written here. I even printed all the responses out so I could get it straight in
my head
I would first like to talk about when Christ comes at the end of the Tribulation and how through some verses shows us that those of us who are saved have already been raptured.
I think that Matthew 24:30,31 was given as a passage that talks about how the rapture will not be secret. These set of verses is talking about the Tribulation it is quoted again in Revelations 1:7. It is talking about Christ coming during the end of the Tribulation to set up His Kingdom, which I will discuss later.
Matthew 24: 30, 31:
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Revlations 1:7:
7Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.
Revlations 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
From these verses we can clearly see that it is Christ returning to earth (near the end of The Tribulation) with His saints. His purpose during this time is to "put down" His enemies and set up His Kingdom. This is NOT the Rapture of the church. The Rapture of the church is when Christ comes to the air and his saints are taken up to meet him.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 After that (it is talking about how after the dead is raised), we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
In other words, the Rapture.
There 2 other passages in scripture that talk about pp that are caught up/taken away with Christ.
Acts 8:39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing
2 Corinthians 12:2-4: I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not knowGod knows. 3And I know that this manwhether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.
There for since the word rapture is derived from the verb used here in the Latin Bible meaning caught up. We can see that the rapture will be when pp are caught up and Christ is in the air to meet them. Therefore in Revelations 19 when it talks of Christ coming to earth it can not be the Rapture then.
Getting back to Revelations 19. Christ's purpose in coming to earth is to establish His kingdom on earth. He can only rule over a righteous one. So He first must remove all things/pp that are not righteous, ie the Devil, the Antichrist and those that have risen up against Christ.
Revelations 19:19-21:
19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.20But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.21The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
This speaks of the Devil and the Antichrist being captured and hurled into the lake of fire. The rest of the "rebels" are killed by the sword of the Lord. This is the end of the Tribulation. Satan is bound for 1000 years.
I would like to discuss next how pp will be saved during the Tribulation and verses to support that thought.
Revelations 20: 4, 5: 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
The beast in this passage talks of the Antichrist. In verse 4 it clearly states that there will be pp that were saved during the Tribulation and that were killed because they did not worship the beast. They will reign with Christ for the 1000 year period in which Satan is bound.
I know that it is confusing to see how pp can be saved during this time, but in
Revlations 7:9-14:
9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb." 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!"
13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robeswho are they, and where did they come from?"
14I answered, "Sir, you know."
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
This again speaks of those that will be saved during the Tribulation. Although we can not know exactly who will be saved we know for sure that there will be 144,000 Jews b/c they will be protected through out the Tribulation. They will have a seal b/c they are servants of God. They will be God's messangers in preaching the gospel.
Revlations 7: 3-8
3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.
In Revelations 11 It also discussed the Two Witnesses that will prophesy for 1,260 days in Christs name. They will be used of Christ to save pp. We also read that Angels, for the first time in History, will be used to save pp.
There will also be those that are saved that have never heard the gospel. Those that have heard the gospel and rejected prior to the Rapture will be deceived by the Antichrist. Therefore they can not/will not be saved. So there really isn't a "second chance" for those on earth now that have rejected Christ to become saved during the Tribulation.
2 Thessalonians 2:8-11:
8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Whew, did anyone read all of that? I hope so. It took me along time to put all these thoughts together and I hope that it is understandable!
________
that is the end...any tips advice help words of wisdom or Prayers that you can have for me I would greatly appreciate!!! God Bless
Kim
Ok, now that I have had some more time to study (which I have done ALOT of today) about this subject I feel I am better able to express my beliefs. Since I had never heard of the rapture being called "secret" I had to read through Kim's post to see what that meant. I do believe in a secret rapture. I believe that we will be taken up with Christ in the twinkling of an eye (as the verse has already been brought out). I am getting ahead of myself though. LOL I hope that you are willing to go through and read my thoughts, they will be lengthy,but I wanted to reply to most of what has been written here. I even printed all the responses out so I could get it straight in
my head
I would first like to talk about when Christ comes at the end of the Tribulation and how through some verses shows us that those of us who are saved have already been raptured.
I think that Matthew 24:30,31 was given as a passage that talks about how the rapture will not be secret. These set of verses is talking about the Tribulation it is quoted again in Revelations 1:7. It is talking about Christ coming during the end of the Tribulation to set up His Kingdom, which I will discuss later.
Matthew 24: 30, 31:
30"At that time the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and all the nations of the earth will mourn. They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. 31And he will send his angels with a loud trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.
Revlations 1:7:
7Look, he is coming with the clouds,
and every eye will see him,
even those who pierced him;
and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.
Revlations 19:11 I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15 Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. "He will rule them with an iron scepter."[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS.
From these verses we can clearly see that it is Christ returning to earth (near the end of The Tribulation) with His saints. His purpose during this time is to "put down" His enemies and set up His Kingdom. This is NOT the Rapture of the church. The Rapture of the church is when Christ comes to the air and his saints are taken up to meet him.
1 Thessalonians 4:17 After that (it is talking about how after the dead is raised), we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever.
In other words, the Rapture.
There 2 other passages in scripture that talk about pp that are caught up/taken away with Christ.
Acts 8:39 When they came up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord suddenly took Philip away, and the eunuch did not see him again, but went on his way rejoicing
2 Corinthians 12:2-4: I know a man in Christ who fourteen years ago was caught up to the third heaven. Whether it was in the body or out of the body I do not knowGod knows. 3And I know that this manwhether in the body or apart from the body I do not know, but God knows 4was caught up to paradise. He heard inexpressible things, things that man is not permitted to tell.
There for since the word rapture is derived from the verb used here in the Latin Bible meaning caught up. We can see that the rapture will be when pp are caught up and Christ is in the air to meet them. Therefore in Revelations 19 when it talks of Christ coming to earth it can not be the Rapture then.
Getting back to Revelations 19. Christ's purpose in coming to earth is to establish His kingdom on earth. He can only rule over a righteous one. So He first must remove all things/pp that are not righteous, ie the Devil, the Antichrist and those that have risen up against Christ.
Revelations 19:19-21:
19Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and their armies gathered together to make war against the rider on the horse and his army.20But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.21The rest of them were killed with the sword that came out of the mouth of the rider on the horse, and all the birds gorged themselves on their flesh.
This speaks of the Devil and the Antichrist being captured and hurled into the lake of fire. The rest of the "rebels" are killed by the sword of the Lord. This is the end of the Tribulation. Satan is bound for 1000 years.
I would like to discuss next how pp will be saved during the Tribulation and verses to support that thought.
Revelations 20: 4, 5: 4I saw thrones on which were seated those who had been given authority to judge. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years. 5(The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.) This is the first resurrection.
The beast in this passage talks of the Antichrist. In verse 4 it clearly states that there will be pp that were saved during the Tribulation and that were killed because they did not worship the beast. They will reign with Christ for the 1000 year period in which Satan is bound.
I know that it is confusing to see how pp can be saved during this time, but in
Revlations 7:9-14:
9After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. 10And they cried out in a loud voice:
"Salvation belongs to our God,
who sits on the throne,
and to the Lamb." 11All the angels were standing around the throne and around the elders and the four living creatures. They fell down on their faces before the throne and worshiped God, 12saying:
"Amen!
Praise and glory
and wisdom and thanks and honor
and power and strength
be to our God for ever and ever.
Amen!"
13Then one of the elders asked me, "These in white robeswho are they, and where did they come from?"
14I answered, "Sir, you know."
And he said, "These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
This again speaks of those that will be saved during the Tribulation. Although we can not know exactly who will be saved we know for sure that there will be 144,000 Jews b/c they will be protected through out the Tribulation. They will have a seal b/c they are servants of God. They will be God's messangers in preaching the gospel.
Revlations 7: 3-8
3"Do not harm the land or the sea or the trees until we put a seal on the foreheads of the servants of our God." 4Then I heard the number of those who were sealed: 144,000 from all the tribes of Israel.
5From the tribe of Judah 12,000 were sealed,
from the tribe of Reuben 12,000,
from the tribe of Gad 12,000,
6from the tribe of Asher 12,000,
from the tribe of Naphtali 12,000,
from the tribe of Manasseh 12,000,
7from the tribe of Simeon 12,000,
from the tribe of Levi 12,000,
from the tribe of Issachar 12,000,
8from the tribe of Zebulun 12,000,
from the tribe of Joseph 12,000,
from the tribe of Benjamin 12,000.
In Revelations 11 It also discussed the Two Witnesses that will prophesy for 1,260 days in Christs name. They will be used of Christ to save pp. We also read that Angels, for the first time in History, will be used to save pp.
There will also be those that are saved that have never heard the gospel. Those that have heard the gospel and rejected prior to the Rapture will be deceived by the Antichrist. Therefore they can not/will not be saved. So there really isn't a "second chance" for those on earth now that have rejected Christ to become saved during the Tribulation.
2 Thessalonians 2:8-11:
8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will overthrow with the breath of his mouth and destroy by the splendor of his coming. 9The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, 10and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refused to love the truth and so be saved. 11For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie 12and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.
Whew, did anyone read all of that? I hope so. It took me along time to put all these thoughts together and I hope that it is understandable!
________
that is the end...any tips advice help words of wisdom or Prayers that you can have for me I would greatly appreciate!!! God Bless
Kim
