How to deal with evolution?

[MatthewDiscipleofGod]

Actually, there are other reasons than the "thousand years" verse in the Psalms for which we could take the days in Genesis as not literal, 24-hour days. I haven't personally done in-depth research into old earth creationism (or young earth, for that matter), but many theologians seem to have proper exegetical reasoning for believing in this theory.

When it comes to various creation theories, I do not want to assert any specific theory as an unquestionable dogma. I certainly think that your young earth beliefs also have merit, and I think this is something that all Christians should examine, at some point. But beyond belief in special creation, I think it would be unwise to require that Christians believe in a specific theory of creation.

As you probably already know I think the Bible is clear on the creation account. That doesn't mean I won't fellowship with other Christians that disagree with me. They may believe in billions of years and even goo to man evolution. I wouldn't even throw them out of the church if I was an elder. To be open and honest though I wouldn't let them teach sunday school, atleast if this topic was to be brought up because in my view it would be leading others astray from biblical truth.

By the way Ken Ham of AIG is coming to town this year for the Worldview Weekend. You should come even if you don't agree with him. They'll have other speakers as well and it would give us an excuse to meet in person. Also Kent Hovind who is also another famous Creationist is coming to town this coming Saturday. My wife and I have tickets. Now I don't agree with several things Kent has to say but I think he does have some good things to contribute and he certainly is an entertaining guy in person and fun to talk too.

 

[catch21wide]

Before anybody posts a reply, I want you to think about this for a minute or two. If you are a Christian and you live for the Lord, why would you try and discredit our creation by God and instead believe a THEORY(not fact) that was founded by an athiest. Like I said earlier, God CREATED EVERYTHING in His image. If He wanted monkies to have almost the same DNA as humans, that is what He wanted. We as christians do not have the right to question God's doing. Why believe a theory that is based on just observations and not believe the Bible which can be proven with written and oral testimony and historical facts. It is my belief that when Jesus returns He will have a big discussion with those who believe in evolution and those who work at keeping it alive. Why argue with them now because they will not change their ideology.
Princetonguy, you say that you are defending the Word of God. I don't believe you when you say that. If you were defending the Word of God, that would include the Book of Genesis in which it contains the Creation. If you were defending the Word of God, you wouldn't be putting evolution before the Creation. Now you and others see why some Christians get angry when we see other christians who say they love the Lord and follw His teachings do this.
The second coming of Jesus Christ is near. I wander what the evolutionists are going to say when Jesus asks, "Why did you question my Father's work?" Think about it.

 

[arunma]

As you probably already know I think the Bible is clear on the creation account. That doesn't mean I won't fellowship with other Christians that disagree with me. They may believe in billions of years and even goo to man evolution. I wouldn't even throw them out of the church if I was an elder. To be open and honest though I wouldn't let them teach sunday school, atleast if this topic was to be brought up because in my view it would be leading others astray from biblical truth.

By the way Ken Ham of AIG is coming to town this year for the Worldview Weekend. You should come even if you don't agree with him. They'll have other speakers as well and it would give us an excuse to meet in person. Also Kent Hovind who is also another famous Creationist is coming to town this coming Saturday. My wife and I have tickets. Now I don't agree with several things Kent has to say but I think he does have some good things to contribute and he certainly is an entertaining guy in person and fun to talk too.

I think that's a perfectly reasonable position.

By the way, thanks for the invite to Ken Ham's talk. Unfortunately this upcoming weekend is the one that my Bible study group planned for our end of the year barbeque (and then there's that senior thesis). But if that changes, maybe I'll come.

 

[arunma]

Before anybody posts a reply, I want you to think about this for a minute or two. If you are a Christian and you live for the Lord, why would you try and discredit our creation by God and instead believe a THEORY(not fact) that was founded by an athiest. Like I said earlier, God CREATED EVERYTHING in His image. If He wanted monkies to have almost the same DNA as humans, that is what He wanted. We as christians do not have the right to question God's doing. Why believe a theory that is based on just observations and not believe the Bible which can be proven with written and oral testimony and historical facts. It is my belief that when Jesus returns He will have a big discussion with those who believe in evolution and those who work at keeping it alive. Why argue with them now because they will not change their ideology.
Princetonguy, you say that you are defending the Word of God. I don't believe you when you say that. If you were defending the Word of God, that would include the Book of Genesis in which it contains the Creation. If you were defending the Word of God, you wouldn't be putting evolution before the Creation. Now you and others see why some Christians get angry when we see other christians who say they love the Lord and follw His teachings do this.
The second coming of Jesus Christ is near. I wander what the evolutionists are going to say when Jesus asks, "Why did you question my Father's work?" Think about it.

Just one clarification. I don't doubt that Princetonguy loves the Lord. I think it is risky business to question a person's faith. After all, with the measure that we judge, so too will we be judged.

 

[catch21wide]

I'm not questioning anybodies faith. That is not my right and I will not do it. I was just asking him a simple question. That's all.

 

[Joykins]

What I would recommend is seeing why your view of the world is that way.

I believe that God is a creator and reveals His truth in creation, and that our (collective and mainstream) understanding of the sciences is *generally* reliable although definitely incomplete. Which is why I believe in creation (though not what calls itself "creation science") and acknowledge that evolution is the best current scientific understanding of the evidence of origins (and also explains early all ongoing biological activity).

Given that, I understand the opening chapters of Genesis as true myth, as spiritually true stories in the same way that Jesus's parables were (both being stories that come from God to illustrate an important principle), but not intended to be used as a science textbook, nor intended to be used to disprove science, nor is it a particularly good tool at doing either.

There are honest scientists the look at the science and don't see goo to man evolution or billinos years being so.

There are always minority viewpoints; there are doctors that don't even believe in the germ theory of disease, and probably astronomers who believe in the "alien autopsy." However, the way science works is that if there is good evidence that doesn't fit with a theory, the theory is revised. And since I don't have "faith" in evolution like I have faith in God, that's not a problem for me if the theory is continuously revised and refined, or discarded in favor of a different theory which better explains the evidence.

It's not strictly because that is what the Bible says and that is that. I myself have a interest in science. I took it in high school but never at a college level. Even so I enjoy reading secular articles and books, even those by evolutionists. I don't see a problem with my view of a young earth and instant creation of animals kinds with the evidence revealed to us in nature.

I don't really see any other reason to believe in a young earth other than a "literal" interpretation of the Bible. I do admit it is easier to wrap your mind around the young-earth creation viewpoint than evolution, on the surface of it. But I know people have, as Princetonguy says, lost their faith over this issue--I've linked to it here before, so I think it's a good idea not to make this issue a stumbling-block. There are Christians all over the map on onrigins beliefs.

It seems to me you are being honest with this situation and am glad we can have discussion like this.

Me too. It is always encouraging when we can disagree without arguing

 

[gwilenius]

It's rather easy to disprove evolution using scripture. Watching an evolutionist try to prove evolution using scripture is certainly an interesting ordeal though.

For a Christian who knows the Bible is God's absolute truth, evolution is absolutely false. However, if you have an audience that does not accept God's word, you can not use scripture to convince them of the truth, becasue they are already convinced scripure is not truth. Don't read too much into my earlier replies - in writing a convincing report to what I am assuming is a secular professor (or instructor) who does not accept God's Word, the correct methodology would not be to use scripture - the intent of the report is not to convert the instructor to Christianity or accepting the Word of God; it is to demonstrate or point out acceptable arguements - acceptable to both Christians and non-Christians - to prove a point. The fundemental principles involved that we, arguing for Creation, need to practice are:
1. Recognize and Follow the leading of the Holy Spirit
2. Know your audience
3. Know your adversary (not necessarily an enemy)
4. Know how to properly present evidence

 

[PrincetonGuy]

Before anybody posts a reply, I want you to think about this for a minute or two. If you are a Christian and you live for the Lord, why would you try and discredit our creation by God and instead believe a THEORY(not fact) that was founded by an athiest. Like I said earlier, God CREATED EVERYTHING in His image.

I am most certainly not trying to discredit anything that God did; but your interpretation of what God did discredits itself.

If He wanted monkies to have almost the same DNA as humans, that is what He wanted. We as christians do not have the right to question God's doing.

No one is questioning God’s doing. We are questioning your interpretation of God’s doing.

Why believe a theory that is based on just observations and not believe the Bible which can be proven with written and oral testimony and historical facts.

The theory of evolution is NOT based only on observations. Anyone who believes that it is simply does not know what he is talking about! Please see the article that I posted a link to above for the basis of the theory of evolution.

It is my belief that when Jesus returns He will have a big discussion with those who believe in evolution and those who work at keeping it alive.

I hope that you are right! That would really be great, especially when He closes the discussion with the words, “Well done, good and faithful servant.”

If you were defending the Word of God, that would include the Book of Genesis in which it contains the Creation. If you were defending the Word of God, you wouldn't be putting evolution before the Creation.

The book of Genesis is by far my favorite book in the Old Testament; and in my personal opinion, it is the most important book in the Old Testament for Christians to very carefully and very prayerfully study. I will not, however, defend an interpretation of the book of Genesis that makes a mockery of it, the entire Bible, Jesus, and the gospel message.

The second coming of Jesus Christ is near. I wander what the evolutionists are going to say when Jesus asks, "Why did you question my Father's work?" Think about it.

Jesus will not ask us why we did something that we did not do. He may ask me, however, “What was it about my Father’s work that inspired you to spend a life time studying it?” And my answer will be, “Our Father!”

 

[PrincetonGuy]

For a Christian who knows the Bible is God's absolute truth, evolution is absolutely false. However, if you have an audience that does not accept God's word, you can not use scripture to convince them of the truth, becasue they are already convinced scripure is not truth. Don't read too much into my earlier replies - in writing a convincing report to what I am assuming is a secular professor (or instructor) who does not accept God's Word, the correct methodology would not be to use scripture - the intent of the report is not to convert the instructor to Christianity or accepting the Word of God; it is to demonstrate or point out acceptable arguements - acceptable to both Christians and non-Christians - to prove a point. The fundemental principles involved that we, arguing for Creation, need to practice are:
1. Recognize and Follow the leading of the Holy Spirit
2. Know your audience
3. Know your adversary (not necessarily an enemy)
4. Know how to properly present evidence

If your adversary knows infinitely more about the theory of evolution that you do, keep your mouth shut about evolution or you will make a ludicrous fool of yourself and bring discredit to the gospel.

The theory of evolution is absolutely irrelevant to the message of gospel and to the Christian faith. It makes no difference if a man prefers a Chevy or a Ford, football or baseball, or believes in evolution rather than six-day creationism.

When a Christian fundamentalist argues with an educated person about the theory of evolution, the Christian fundamentalist simply shows their adversary that they themselves are blabbermouths that don’t know what they are talking about.

I have never seen teaching or preaching creationism do anyone any good whatsoever, but I know people who lost all faith in God and the Bible because the Christians they knew believed in creationism rather than an academically sound view of creation, and thereby discredited themselves and the teaching of the Bible.

Millions of people today refuse to believe the Bible because they have been deceived by fundamentalist Christians into believing that the Bible teaches ridiculous nonsense. The Bible teaches no such ridiculous nonsense, and the unsaved masses, if they are to believe the Bible, NEED TO KNOW THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES NO SUCH THING! THEY NEED TO KNOW THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES THE TRUTH, AND THAT FUNDAMENTAL TRUTH TAUGHT IN THE BIBLE IS THAT THEY HAVE SINNED, JESUS DIED ON THE CROSS AND PAID THE PENALTY FOR THAT SIN, AND THAT THROUGH FAITH IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST THEIR SINS CAN BE FORGIVEN AND THEY CAN BECOME A NEW CREATION OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS.

 

[gwilenius]

If your adversary knows infinitely more about the theory of evolution that you do, keep your mouth shut about evolution or you will make a ludicrous fool of yourself and bring discredit to the gospel.

The theory of evolution is absolutely irrelevant to the message of gospel and to the Christian faith. It makes no difference if a man prefers a Chevy or a Ford, football or baseball, or believes in evolution rather than six-day creationism.

When a Christian fundamentalist argues with an educated person about the theory of evolution, the Christian fundamentalist simply shows their adversary that they themselves are blabbermouths that don’t know what they are talking about.

I have never seen teaching or preaching creationism do anyone any good whatsoever, but I know people who lost all faith in God and the Bible because the Christians they knew believed in creationism rather than an academically sound view of creation, and thereby discredited themselves and the teaching of the Bible.

Millions of people today refuse to believe the Bible because they have been deceived by fundamentalist Christians into believing that the Bible teaches ridiculous nonsense. The Bible teaches no such ridiculous nonsense, and the unsaved masses, if they are to believe the Bible, NEED TO KNOW THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES NO SUCH THING! THEY NEED TO KNOW THAT THE BIBLE TEACHES THE TRUTH, AND THAT FUNDAMENTAL TRUTH TAUGHT IN THE BIBLE IS THAT THEY HAVE SINNED, JESUS DIED ON THE CROSS AND PAID THE PENALTY FOR THAT SIN, AND THAT THROUGH FAITH IN THE LORD JESUS CHRIST THEIR SINS CAN BE FORGIVEN AND THEY CAN BECOME A NEW CREATION OF GOD IN CHRIST JESUS.

To accept evolution as life created by chance absolutely contradicts the scriptures. if a Christian accepts the premise that life began from a cesspool of organic precursors and man eventually evolved from this, that absolutely contradicts what the Genesis account teaches. Now I agree, IF one knew nothing of evolution and attempted to defend against it, THEN they would make an absolute fool of themselves. However, IF one knows a great deal about evolution, and a great deal about the young earth theories, THEN, IF argued CORRECTLY, the fool will be the one who stands for evolution.

I disagree in your statement that what one believes does not matter. I am a fundamental Christian, and a scientist. I studied evolution, genetics, physics, and other physical sciences in detail so I am in a good position to argue the inconsistencies in evolution as a whole; and can assert the traditional theory, when applied with the scientific method, can not be supported. you have grasped one of my point - use the gospel to get the evolutionist saved, then let the Holy Spirit work on their premises.

It's a shame that "fudemental Christians" who do not know how to present evidence correctly, have caused people to loose faith. Fortunately, I am not among them.

Well, since this has stryed from the main topic of the thread and seems to be turning into a debate, I think it would be best to end this thread. If you want to continue the discussion along the avenues this has been leading, feel free to PM me.

 

[LsforLove]

To accept evolution as life created by chance absolutely contradicts the scriptures. if a Christian accepts the premise that life began from a cesspool of organic precursors and man eventually evolved from this, that absolutely contradicts what the Genesis account teaches. Now I agree, IF one knew nothing of evolution and attempted to defend against it, THEN they would make an absolute fool of themselves. However, IF one knows a great deal about evolution, and a great deal about the young earth theories, THEN, IF argued CORRECTLY, the fool will be the one who stands for evolution.

I disagree in your statement that what one believes does not matter. I am a fundamental Christian, and a scientist. I studied evolution, genetics, physics, and other physical sciences in detail so I am in a good position to argue the inconsistencies in evolution as a whole; and can assert the traditional theory, when applied with the scientific method, can not be supported. you have grasped one of my point - use the gospel to get the evolutionist saved, then let the Holy Spirit work on their premises.

It's a shame that "fudemental Christians" who do not know how to present evidence correctly, have caused people to loose faith. Fortunately, I am not among them.

Well, since this has stryed from the main topic of the thread and seems to be turning into a debate, I think it would be best to end this thread. If you want to continue the discussion along the avenues this has been leading, feel free to PM me.

John quoted Jesus as saying
“the Father and I are one”
Gen 1
“In the beginning God created…so on and so forth”
Combine this and realize that God and Jesus as one deity are in some manner creating earth/life, and pizza because pizza is yummy.
Jesus used parables or short stories to teach us morals and lessons.
Reference Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John if you need a reminder.
It is logically possible and even highly probable that the creation story in Gen. is simply a anecdote used to teach us about our place in the world, and basics about the human condition.
I find it highly unlikely that the world around us was created in 7, 24 hour, days however anything is possible. However it is just as likely that something that looks like evolution happened.

 

[JPPT1974]

I'm not questioning anybodies faith. That is not my right and I will not do it. I was just asking him a simple question. That's all.

I know you meant well
As you weren't trying to harrass
The OP at all
No harm nor foul!

 

[catch21wide]

I am most certainly not trying to discredit anything that God did; but your interpretation of what God did discredits itself.

If you are not discrediting anything God did, why are you picking evolution over God's creation. By the way, I am not using my own interpretation. I am just going by what the Bible says and that my friend is God created the Heavens and the Earth, the Sun, moon and stars, birds of the air, animals of the ground, plants, and most importantly, Human Beings.

No one is questioning God’s doing. We are questioning your interpretation of God’s doing.

I don't see anybody else questioning my interpretation. I just see you questioning me. Like I said earlier, this is not my interpretation. It is what the Bible says.

The theory of evolution is NOT based only on observations. Anyone who believes that it is simply does not know what he is talking about! Please see the article that I posted a link to above for the basis of the theory of evolution.

Can I point out a keyword in those sentences. The word is theory. If it was a fact, scientists would discontinue using that word.

I hope that you are right! That would really be great, especially when He closes the discussion with the words, “Well done, good and faithful servant.”

It is my belief that since Darwin, who came up with the idea of evolution, was an athiest, I don't think he heard those words. Especially since Darwin came up with something that contradicted with what God had created.

The book of Genesis is by far my favorite book in the Old Testament; and in my personal opinion, it is the most important book in the Old Testament for Christians to very carefully and very prayerfully study. I will not, however, defend an interpretation of the book of Genesis that makes a mockery of it, the entire Bible, Jesus, and the gospel message.

What interpretation? The Book of Genesis is the most clear book in the Bible to understand. The chapter on creation doesn't need an interpretation. By saying you will not defend an interpretation that makes a mockery of it, my friend I have some news for you. Evolution is a mockery of Genesis and the Bible as a whole. I'm not making a mockery of Genesis, I am defending the book of Genesis on the basis of inerrancy. When I go to the seminary, I am proud to know that I will have teachers who will teach us that evolution is wrong in the eyes of God.

Jesus will not ask us why we did something that we did not do. He may ask me, however, “What was it about my Father’s work that inspired you to spend a life time studying it?” And my answer will be, “Our Father!”

I study God's work to, but I study mine through God's word, The book of Genesis. I don't study an athiest's analysis. That's all evolution is, an analysis. My friend I am asking that you please read these verses of scripture to let you see where I get my views:

Genesis 1:1
Genesis 1:27
Mark 10:6
Hebrews 4:4

 

[Lenora56]

As you probably already know I think the Bible is clear on the creation account. That doesn't mean I won't fellowship with other Christians that disagree with me. They may believe in billions of years and even goo to man evolution. I wouldn't even throw them out of the church if I was an elder. To be open and honest though I wouldn't let them teach sunday school, atleast if this topic was to be brought up because in my view it would be leading others astray from biblical truth.

By the way Ken Ham of AIG is coming to town this year for the Worldview Weekend. You should come even if you don't agree with him. They'll have other speakers as well and it would give us an excuse to meet in person. Also Kent Hovind who is also another famous Creationist is coming to town this coming Saturday. My wife and I have tickets. Now I don't agree with several things Kent has to say but I think he does have some good things to contribute and he certainly is an entertaining guy in person and fun to talk too.

I missed Ken Ham when he came to our area.
I also love listening to Thomas Kindell. I downloaded 2 or 3 of his videos from...nwcreation.net.

 

[98cwitr]

i do have to admit though...evolution theorists do make a very convincing arguement. One that I have been falling for my entire life. Not trying to stir anything up here but scripture tells us that man was formed in the image of God...so with that being said what, in a Biblical since, explains Lucy (the findings of an old hominid in Africa) and the physical distinctions between that specimen and humans now? While God did not make any of us equal, nor did he create any one of us alike...there are very noticable differences between most humans now and humans of the past...far past. Just a thought

 

[PrincetonGuy]

We have in this thread four different theories being debated,

1. The theory of evolution
2. The theory of a literal six day creation
3. The theory that the first eleven chapters of Genesis belong to the genre of literature know as “epic literature”
4. The theory that the first eleven chapters of Genesis should be interpreted as a literal account of actual historical events

The great preponderance of evidence, from an academic point of view, unquestionably demonstrates that theories 1 and 3 are correct, and that theories 2 and 4 are very imaginative but totally ridiculous. Anyone who refuses to believe 99.9% of the biologists and geologists working today who have earned a Ph.D. in one of those areas of science and 100% of the men and women employed today as a full professor of biology or geology in a major university any where in the world, and the very large majority of professors of Old Testament in the most academic seminaries on the face of this planet, most certainly bases his or her beliefs on something other than reality, so I shall retire myself from this thread.

But before leaving, I wish to thank everyone who has participated in this thread for sharing with us, and for sharing with us in a polite and civilized manner.

 

[Dmckay]

There is a way which seems right to a man,
But its end is the way of death.

 

[LsforLove]

John quoted Jesus as saying
“the Father and I are one”
Gen 1
“In the beginning God created…so on and so forth”
Combine this and realize that God and Jesus as one deity are in some manner creating earth/life, and pizza because pizza is yummy.
Jesus used parables or short stories to teach us morals and lessons.
Reference Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John if you need a reminder.
It is logically possible and even highly probable that the creation story in Gen. is simply a anecdote used to teach us about our place in the world, and basics about the human condition.
I find it highly unlikely that the world around us was created in 7, 24 hour, days however anything is possible. However it is just as likely that something that looks like evolution happened.

This is common in real life however when ever I pass along this idea to a creationist in real life. I get met with silence, if one or many would like to respond I would love to hear your thoughts. I’m not trying to start a argument, I just happen to think it is quite a strong logical argument for the validity of the bible and also the validity of biology and geology, which if we have strong almost irrefutable evidence for both then we should be able to marry them in some fashion

 

[arunma]

John quoted Jesus as saying
“the Father and I are one”
Gen 1
“In the beginning God created…so on and so forth”
Combine this and realize that God and Jesus as one deity are in some manner creating earth/life, and pizza because pizza is yummy.
Jesus used parables or short stories to teach us morals and lessons.
Reference Mark, Matthew, Luke, and John if you need a reminder.
It is logically possible and even highly probable that the creation story in Gen. is simply a anecdote used to teach us about our place in the world, and basics about the human condition.
I find it highly unlikely that the world around us was created in 7, 24 hour, days however anything is possible. However it is just as likely that something that looks like evolution happened.

I agree, and this is why I'm willing to consider the possibility that Genesis 1 is to be read as allegorical poetry (that said, I do believe that it still can be reconciled with science). All I'm saying is that it does not necessarily have to be read as a parable. One can read the text literally, and still understand that the age of the universe is precisely as science predicts.

The problem with evolution is quite a bit deeper, however. I do not reject evolution simply because the lives of Adam and Eve are described in the early chapters of Genesis. I would have no problem taking this as a parable, if we read the text out of context. The problem is that Adam and Eve are described as historical persons in other parts of the Bible. For example, in the books of the Chronicles, written hundreds of years after Moses (after the exile), the geneologies of many significant characters in Israel's history are traced back to Adam.

Furthermore, the Apostle Paul mentions Adam in his epistles, and even teaches us that original sin is the result of a deed that Adam did. It would be very difficult to suggest that the epistles are meant to be parables.

What do you think?

 

[Lenora56]

We have in this thread four different theories being debated,

1. The theory of evolution
2. The theory of a literal six day creation
3. The theory that the first eleven chapters of Genesis belong to the genre of literature know as “epic literature”
4. The theory that the first eleven chapters of Genesis should be interpreted as a literal account of actual historical events

The great preponderance of evidence, from an academic point of view, unquestionably demonstrates that theories 1 and 3 are correct, and that theories 2 and 4 are very imaginative but totally ridiculous. Anyone who refuses to believe 99.9% of the biologists and geologists working today who have earned a Ph.D. in one of those areas of science and 100% of the men and women employed today as a full professor of biology or geology in a major university any where in the world, and the very large majority of professors of Old Testament in the most academic seminaries on the face of this planet, most certainly bases his or her beliefs on something other than reality, so I shall retire myself from this thread.

But before leaving, I wish to thank everyone who has participated in this thread for sharing with us, and for sharing with us in a polite and civilized manner.

I know that the evolutionists are many but I'm not sure where you get those percentages (100% of the men and women employed today as a full professor of biology or geology in a major university? ). I believe in creation as outlined in Genesis,, and no, I don't base my beliefs on something other than reality.