How to convince R. Catholics that the ('host' wafer) is not Christs flesh and bone? (2)

[bbbbbbb]

You're not a competent Catholic Bishop, so your words on what constitutes an Eucharistic miracle are about as credible as a rock's. I'm sorry if this is news to you.

Would that rock be Peter, by any chance? If so, I think that rock's words really do rock.

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

Would that rock be Peter, by any chance? If so, I think that rock's words really do rock.

We actually put the theme song from "Rocky" up on this thread.

http://www.christianforums.com/t5523201-186/#post36033682
Peter is not the Rock

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

I have already printed this out and am having a frame made to put it in.

Now we need to play the "ROCKY" victory theme song!!!!! AMEN!!!!

​

 

[bbbbbbb]

We actually put the theme song from "Rocky" up on this thread.

http://www.christianforums.com/t5523201-186/#post36033682
Peter is not the Rock

Originally Posted by LittleLambofJesus

I have already printed this out and am having a frame made to put it in.

Now we need to play the "ROCKY" victory theme song!!!!! AMEN!!!!

​

 

[Tangible]

Originally Posted by Standing Up

What does that mean (Real Presence)?

How is it different from Mt. 18:20, For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Or is it the same?

​

Besides Wiki--anyone?

How 'bout just off the top of my head?

Real presence differs from the reference in Mt 18:20 in that it stipulates that the body and blood of Jesus Christ are present in the consecrated bread and wine in a spiritual, yet also a sacramental sense.

Where two or three are gathered, Jesus is there in a spiritual sense, as he is in his body - the church. He is also there in his omnipresence.

Subscribers to Real Presence believe that Jesus is indeed present spiritually, and in his omnipresence, and ALSO that his body and blood are present in the bread and wine and are received in a tangible form into our bodies for the forgiveness of sins because of Jesus' words, "This is my body" and "This is my blood" and "given for you" and "shed for the forgiveness of sins."

Lutherans, EO and some others, either as official doctrine or as an individual pious opinion, simply take Jesus at his word and believe what he says without any attempt to explain or even understand how this happens. This is the most basic meaning of Real Presence.

The RCC and historically others here and there have attempted further explanation as to how RP works. The list I gave earlier contains some of these attempted explanations. The RCC has promulgated Transubstantiation as Dogma. These concepts are also included under the concept of RP, but extend further into specific explanations and theoretical understandings.

 

[Musa80]

Lutherans, EO and some others, either as official doctrine or as an individual pious opinion, simply take Jesus at his word and believe what he says without any attempt to explain or even understand how this happens. This is the most basic meaning of Real Presence.

The RCC and historically others here and there have attempted further explanation as to how RP works. The list I gave earlier contains some of these attempted explanations. The RCC has promulgated Transubstantiation as Dogma. These concepts are also included under the concept of RP, but extend further into specific explanations and theoretical understandings.

Also, IMO, whether or not you agree with Transubstantiation it's quite easy to see why the RCC would elevate such an understanding to Dogma. Even amongst those who are supposed to have a firm belief in RP have been known to twist and contort explanations of their own to the point where it cannot even be understood to mean Real Presence any more.

 

[Standing Up]

Originally Posted by Standing Up

What does that mean (Real Presence)?
​

How is it different from Mt. 18:20, For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them. Or is it the same?

​

How 'bout just off the top of my head?

Real presence differs from the reference in Mt 18:20 in that it stipulates that the body and blood of Jesus Christ are present in the consecrated bread and wine in a spiritual, yet also a sacramental sense.

Where two or three are gathered, Jesus is there in a spiritual sense, as he is in his body - the church. He is also there in his omnipresence.

Subscribers to Real Presence believe that Jesus is indeed present spiritually, and in his omnipresence, and ALSO that his body and blood are present in the bread and wine and are received in a tangible form into our bodies for the forgiveness of sins because of Jesus' words, "This is my body" and "This is my blood" and "given for you" and "shed for the forgiveness of sins." -snip-

Thanks.

Sacrament as in "represented" sacrifice of the cross, requiring a priest at an altar (like RC and EO)? Or something else?

I guess I'm wondering whether RP exists because of a holdover from RC/EO thinking? Or was RP first and then as the years went by, folks tried to define things?

But RP has to do with the bread (My body) and wine (My blood). More like with the two on Emmaus? He was there and broke the bread and their eyes were opened?

 

[Tangible]

Sacrament as in "represented" sacrifice of the cross, requiring a priest at an altar (like RC and EO)? Or something else?

No. Sacrament as in sacramentum the promise or oath sworn by Romans entering public service. It's all about the promises made to us by God.

I guess I'm wondering whether RP exists because of a holdover from RC/EO thinking?

Well, "holdover" has kind of a negative connotation.

I would prefer a term more like "continuation" or "heritage." As far as we can tell, RP was the belief of the early church as evidenced by very early writings. There is no good reason not to think that RP was the belief of the apostles and Jesus himself.

Or was RP first and then as the years went by, folks tried to define things?

I think that is more accurate.

But RP has to do with the bread (My body) and wine (My blood). More like with the two on Emmaus? He was there and broke the bread and their eyes were opened?

While not specifically a Eucharistic text, it resonates with the events at the Last Supper. It does a wonderful job of bringing home the importance of the Last Supper and the heavenly gifts given to us through simple bread and wine, and tying together the events before and after Christ's death and resurrection.

From the blog of a Lutheran pastor, Rev. William Cwirla (my highlighting)

They came a fork in the road, and Jesus pretended to go in the other direction. Still hiding Himself, still more to give. The two disciples urged Jesus, “Stay with us, it’s almost sundown.” So Jesus went to their house. At supper, He seems to take over the house and make it His own. He takes the bread, gives thanks, breaks it, and begins to distribute it to them. Sound familiar? It should! Echoes of the upper room the week before, the Passover table, the breaking of the bread. “This is my body.”

And then, at that very moment, with the bread, their eyes were finally opened and they recognized Jesus. Just as suddenly, Jesus disappeared from their sight. Poof! He was gone. Curiously, they didn’t ask, “Where did He go?” They didn’t have to ask. They knew where they could find Jesus. It was where He promised to be for them - in the Scriptures and in the Breaking of the Bread. Word and Sacrament, as we Lutherans like to say it.

I hope you can see how the Emmaus Road shaped Christian worship from the earliest centuries. We hear from Christ in the Scriptures; He reveals Himself to us in the Supper. And that’s the point of the Emmaus Road. This in-between time, between Jesus’ resurrection and our resurrection, is not a time for seeing with our eyes but of hearing with our ears the Word and receiving with our mouths the Body and Blood. This is how Jesus walks with us and talks with us and tells us we are his own. The liturgy is our Emmaus Road from death to life, from sorrow to joy, beginning with our death and burial in Baptism, walking the Scripture road with hearts aflame with faith, leading to the table where Jesus is made known to us in the Breaking of the Bread.

 

[FreeinChrist]

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Closing this thread for staff review. It has generated alot of reports.​

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