LDS How to Become a God

[Peter1000]

Jesus is the one and only completely true image and substance as God. He now has humanity in the mix and is also more like us now. They were one shared substance, Jesus is now human also which the Father has none of.

So are you saying that Jesus is not the 'express image' of God, his Father? You seem to be dancing all around that statement in the bible?

 

[Peter1000]

Correct, it isn't rocket science. The deal is Mormonism twisting 1 Scripture to promote something that is not Biblical.

As far as the KJV scholars is concerned … maybe it's not their scholarship that should be in question. Rather you'd be best to place the suspicion of error where it belongs … Mormonism.

The English word 'ordinances' is vastly different than the English word 'traditions'. So you can throw the blame where you always do, but for me to stick with exactly what our bible says and not twist 'ordinances' into 'tradition', I think I am on the right side of this discussion.

IOW you are the one that is saying, wait a minute, the word 'ordinances' should not be here and I am going to change it to 'traditions'. So don't talk to me about twisting.

 

[mmksparbud]

So are you saying that Jesus is not the 'express image' of God, his Father? You seem to be dancing all around that statement in the bible?

Since the very first, we've been telling you the same thing. Jesus is God, One God with the Father and Holy Spirit. Always was, always will be. In substance, in every way--God. When Jesus became human, He took on a different substance from the Father and Holy Spirit for neither of them have ever been human. Jesus kept His divinity, but was now fully human also. Jesus kept His humanity after the cross and will keep it throughput eternity---but He RETAINED His divinity and is therefore still God. In Character and in every which way, including divinity---Jesus is His Father, His Father is no longer fully the same as Jesus for He does not share in His Humanity. Jesus is the express image of the Father, the Father is no longer the exact same substance as the Son for He does not share in His humanity.

 

[He is the way]

No, not at this time:

Heb 1:1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,
Heb 1:2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds;
Heb 1:3 Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;

This is said to the Son:

Heb 1:8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom.
Heb 1:9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows.
Heb 1:10 And, Thou, Lord, in the beginning hast laid the foundation of the earth; and the heavens are the works of thine hands:
Heb 1:11 They shall perish; but thou remainest; and they all shall wax old as doth a garment;
Heb 1:12 And as a vesture shalt thou fold them up, and they shall be changed: but thou art the same, and thy years shall not fail.

This is a good scripture to show how God the Father and Jesus Christ are one in purpose and not one in substance.:

(New Testament | John 17:9 - 26)

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

 

[dzheremi]

Meanwhile, in actual Christianity, nobody had to wait until 1830 or whatever to figure out what that passage means, and nobody would have accepted such a misunderstanding of it in the Christian world before that time. It's far too long to reproduce here (I already tried), but our father among the saints St. Cyril of Alexandria (d. 444) discusses every verse mentioned above in the 8th chapter of the 11th book of his commentary on the Gospel of St. John, available online in translation here.

Everyone here could benefit from reading it, especially our Mormon friends who think that the scriptures teach Mormon theology.

 

[mmksparbud]

This is a good scripture to show how God the Father and Jesus Christ are one in purpose and not one in substance.:

(New Testament | John 17:9 - 26)

9 I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.
10 And all mine are thine, and thine are mine; and I am glorified in them.
11 And now I am no more in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep through thine own name those whom thou hast given me, that they may be one, as we are.
12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.
13 And now come I to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they might have my joy fulfilled in themselves.
14 I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.
16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.
18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.
19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.
20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;
21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:
23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.
24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.
25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.
26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

Parrot response. Here is mine.

Unlike Mormonism, Christianity teaches one in substance. They were both of the same for the Father is able to produce children of His own substance, unlike your god. Ours has chosen to have only ONE SON. With the incarnation came a slight variation, as Jesus became human, but retained His divinity. God never has become human, nor ever will. He may, at times, give the appearance of one.

 

[Peter1000]

Since the very first, we've been telling you the same thing. Jesus is God, One God with the Father and Holy Spirit. Always was, always will be. In substance, in every way--God. When Jesus became human, He took on a different substance from the Father and Holy Spirit for neither of them have ever been human. Jesus kept His divinity, but was now fully human also. Jesus kept His humanity after the cross and will keep it throughput eternity---but He RETAINED His divinity and is therefore still God. In Character and in every which way, including divinity---Jesus is His Father, His Father is no longer fully the same as Jesus for He does not share in His Humanity. Jesus is the express image of the Father, the Father is no longer the exact same substance as the Son for He does not share in His humanity.

This statement from you must be a good SDA statement, but it is far from what Trinitarian Christians believe.

To tell a Trinitarian that the Father is no longer fully the same as Jesus, I believe it would be considered heretical to them.

We believe that at this time God the Father and Jesus are made of the same substance, resurrected, perfect bodies of flesh and bone and spirit. Far, far, far superior to our human bodies, but nonetheless flesh and bone and spirit, the same kind of body we will have in the resurrection if we are given Celestial bodies that are exalted and are compared in glory as to the sun.

The scripture cannot get much clearer when saying that Jesus is the 'express image' of his Fathers own person. Therefore don't bother me Phillip any more to see the Father, because I look and feel exactly as the Father does, so if you see me, you know exactly what the Father looks like.

In fact Phillip, too was made in the image and likeness of God himself, just like Jesus was. Therefore if Phillip wanted to see the Father, all he had to do was look at himself in a full body mirror, and he would know what the Father looks like.

Remember, Jesus did not do anything except what he saw his Father and God do. So since Jesus has humanity, I am sure his Father has humanity too. You can argue this but I believe the scriptures.

 

[mmksparbud]

This statement from you must be a good SDA statement, but it is far from what Trinitarian Christians believe.

To tell a Trinitarian that the Father is no longer fully the same as Jesus, I believe it would be considered heretical to them.

We believe that at this time God the Father and Jesus are made of the same substance, resurrected, perfect bodies of flesh and bone and spirit. Far, far, far superior to our human bodies, but nonetheless flesh and bone and spirit, the same kind of body we will have in the resurrection if we are given Celestial bodies that are exalted and are compared in glory as to the sun.

The scripture cannot get much clearer when saying that Jesus is the 'express image' of his Fathers own person. Therefore don't bother me Phillip any more to see the Father, because I look and feel exactly as the Father does, so if you see me, you know exactly what the Father looks like.

In fact Phillip, too was made in the image and likeness of God himself, just like Jesus was. Therefore if Phillip wanted to see the Father, all he had to do was look at himself in a full body mirror, and he would know what the Father looks like.

Remember, Jesus did not do anything except what he saw his Father and God do. So since Jesus has humanity, I am sure his Father has humanity too. You can argue this but I believe the scriptures.

Heretical---maybe---don't know. All I know is, no Christian believes the Father was ever human. They believe Father and Son were one substance before the incarnation---Jesus is now also human. The Father is not also human. Don't know what is heretical about that. The Father does not have a body of bone and flesh. That is heretical. No scripture says the Father is, or ever was, human. It is not the bible you believe.

 

[Peter1000]

Meanwhile, in actual Christianity, nobody had to wait until 1830 or whatever to figure out what that passage means, and nobody would have accepted such a misunderstanding of it in the Christian world before that time. It's far too long to reproduce here (I already tried), but our father among the saints St. Cyril of Alexandria (d. 444) discusses every verse mentioned above in the 8th chapter of the 11th book of his commentary on the Gospel of St. John, available online in translation here.

Everyone here could benefit from reading it, especially our Mormon friends who think that the scriptures teach Mormon theology.

I read for about 5 minutes, and found that Cyril was going on and on about the relationship with the Holy Spirit with Jesus and Jesus with God. There seem to be a massive amounts of words as if massive amounts of words was the key to understanding.

He uses the phrase, "no man should ever think that.....", and other big words that are sure to show his scholarship and knowledge. And he was writing to people that already thought he was more than just a man, so I am sure they knew only 1/4 what he said, but kneeled down in front of him and cried abba father. Cyril has never seen God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit. Has never talked with God or Jesus or the Holy Spirit, yet he gives intricate details, more than intricate details in mountains of words, as to how they operate between each other.

Let me compare Cyril's mountains of words to describe the relationship to God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit to Joseph Smith's words to describe the relationship between God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit.
Doctrine and Covenants 130:22
22 The Father has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man’s; the Son also; but the Holy Ghost has not a body of flesh and bones, but is a personage of Spirit. Were it not so, the Holy Ghost could not dwell in us.

In contrast to Cyril, at least JS says he saw them and talked to Jesus many times to receive instructions and knowledge about the Godhead. His words are what revelation looks like, not mountains of words that can be confusing.

 

[Peter1000]

Heretical---maybe---don't know. All I know is, no Christian believes the Father was ever human. They believe Father and Son were one substance before the incarnation---Jesus is now also human. The Father is not also human. Don't know what is heretical about that. The Father does not have a body of bone and flesh. That is heretical. No scripture says the Father is, or ever was, human. It is not the bible you believe.

What is heretical is that according to Trinity doctrine, the Father and the Son are of the same substance. If one has flesh and bone and the other doesn't they are not of the same substance. To not be of the same substance is heretical.

 

[dzheremi]

What is heretical is that according to Trinity doctrine, the Father and the Son are of the same substance. If one has flesh and bone and the other doesn't they are not of the same substance.

FOR THE LAST DAMN TIME, THIS IS NOT WHAT IT MEANS. THE OUSIA THAT THEY SHARE IS THE DIVINITY, NOT THE HUMANITY, BECAUSE ONLY CHRIST WAS INCARNATE.

I'm sorry to yell, but I've literally spent dozens of hours/pages explaining this to you in particular, Peter. So stop it. Just stop.

 

[mmksparbud]

FOR THE LAST DAMN TIME, THIS IS NOT WHAT IT MEANS. THE OUSIA THAT THEY SHARE IS THE DIVINITY, NOT THE HUMANITY, BECAUSE ONLY CHRIST WAS INCARNATE.

I'm sorry to yell, but I've literally spent dozens of hours/pages explaining this to you in particular, Peter. So stop it. Just stop.

Thanks--it only makes sense, and I've been saying it since day 1 also. Will have to repeat it 50 more times and they still won't get it!

 

[Peter1000]

FOR THE LAST DAMN TIME, THIS IS NOT WHAT IT MEANS. THE OUSIA THAT THEY SHARE IS THE DIVINITY, NOT THE HUMANITY, BECAUSE ONLY CHRIST WAS INCARNATE.

I'm sorry to yell, but I've literally spent dozens of hours/pages explaining this to you in particular, Peter. So stop it. Just stop.

You can yell all you want. This is a frustrating study. You have spent dozens of hours/pages explaining this to me and I still cannot make sense of it. And you obviously cannot explain it to me so I understand. Maybe thats why you eventually give up and just say, its a mystery. Maybe it is just too much Mormonism in me to be able to wrap my arms around the Trinity concept.

For instance you say, the ousia they share is the divinity, not the humanity. Then you are saying that their divinity has substance, since they both share the same substance? That is an interesting observation.

 

[dzheremi]

No, that's not what I'm saying -- that's what you're saying about what I'm saying. In this case, there's a huge difference.

The divinity is not a 'thing' in itself, which could thereby be the possessor of a 'substance'. That is a bizarre idea. When we talk about the divinity or the humanity, we are talking about the natures which are united in Christ at the incarnation, since again only Christ (not God the Father, nor the Holy Spirit) is incarnate, i.e., only He takes on our humanity, becoming like us in all things but sin (Hebrews 4:15). Natures themselves are not people. They cannot possess things. We may talk about what is characteristic of a nature -- e.g., as Shakespeare wrote, "To err is human" -- but that doesn't make the nature itself into some kind of separate thing that possesses things on its own.

So when we talk about substance (ousia, substantia), it is not a thing to be possessed, such that Christ could lose His divinity at any point (Lord have mercy). Even in those passages or prayers that you can find (and in my Church, we have a few for the appropriate events of Christ's life) which say of Christ things like "You did not consider equality with God a thing to be held on to, but released it and emptied Yourself, and took the form of a servant..." (from the prayers for the Nativity liturgy), it is referring to His condescending to become man, whereby He willingly lowered Himself to take on the human body -- with all of its frailties and limitations -- and the human nature, so as to redeem us and give us the freedom of eternal life free from sin and the death that comes with it.

In Christianity, Christ becomes man while never ceasing to be God, and hence is 100% perfectly and completely God, and 100% perfectly and completely man. God the Father is not incarnate, so He never becomes man, and the Holy Spirit is not incarnate, so He never becomes man, either.

If I may point this out (and again, I am sorry for losing my temper; I just get a bit frustrated at having to repeat this stuff after the countless hours I've spent already doing so), would you be willing to entertain the idea that it is not so much "too much Mormonism" in you that prevents you from understanding this concept, but rather the specific problem introduced by Mormonism that in a theology in which all the persons of the Trinity are somehow already incarnate (already possessing of physical bodies), there can't really be an incarnation in the first place?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it would seem that if Christ already has a body of flesh and bone (and the Father likewise, and the Holy Spirit its strange body of 'spirit matter'/finer-grained matter), then there is no incarnation. Jesus just sorta...comes to earth already as a human man, and is born, and that's sort of it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There's nothing particularly miraculous about it, since from what I understand the Mormon idea is that the same either can or has happened for us all.

And without an understanding of the incarnation, my friend, you will have a mighty hard time understanding traditional Christian belief in the Holy Trinity, because the whole "3 in 1 and 1 in 3" understanding assumes an understanding of the solidly Biblical and Nicene principle of the relation of the Persons of the Trinity to one another, which is best revealed in the incarnation itself, as described in John 1 and elsewhere.

 

[Barney2.0]

No, that's not what I'm saying -- that's what you're saying about what I'm saying. In this case, there's a huge difference.

The divinity is not a 'thing' in itself, which could thereby be the possessor of a 'substance'. That is a bizarre idea. When we talk about the divinity or the humanity, we are talking about the natures which are united in Christ at the incarnation, since again only Christ (not God the Father, nor the Holy Spirit) is incarnate, i.e., only He takes on our humanity, becoming like us in all things but sin (Hebrews 4:15). Natures themselves are not people. They cannot possess things. We may talk about what is characteristic of a nature -- e.g., as Shakespeare wrote, "To err is human" -- but that doesn't make the nature itself into some kind of separate thing that possesses things on its own.

So when we talk about substance (ousia, substantia), it is not a thing to be possessed, such that Christ could lose His divinity at any point (Lord have mercy). Even in those passages or prayers that you can find (and in my Church, we have a few for the appropriate events of Christ's life) which say of Christ things like "You did not consider equality with God a thing to be held on to, but released it and emptied Yourself, and took the form of a servant..." (from the prayers for the Nativity liturgy), it is referring to His condescending to become man, whereby He willingly lowered Himself to take on the human body -- with all of its frailties and limitations -- and the human nature, so as to redeem us and give us the freedom of eternal life free from sin and the death that comes with it.

In Christianity, Christ becomes man while never ceasing to be God, and hence is 100% perfectly and completely God, and 100% perfectly and completely man. God the Father is not incarnate, so He never becomes man, and the Holy Spirit is not incarnate, so He never becomes man, either.

If I may point this out (and again, I am sorry for losing my temper; I just get a bit frustrated at having to repeat this stuff after the countless hours I've spent already doing so), would you be willing to entertain the idea that it is not so much "too much Mormonism" in you that prevents you from understanding this concept, but rather the specific problem introduced by Mormonism that in a theology in which all the persons of the Trinity are somehow already incarnate (already possessing of physical bodies), there can't really be an incarnation in the first place?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it would seem that if Christ already has a body of flesh and bone (and the Father likewise, and the Holy Spirit its strange body of 'spirit matter'/finer-grained matter), then there is no incarnation. Jesus just sorta...comes to earth already as a human man, and is born, and that's sort of it. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ There's nothing particularly miraculous about it, since from what I understand the Mormon idea is that the same either can or has happened for us all.

And without an understanding of the incarnation, my friend, you will have a mighty hard time understanding traditional Christian belief in the Holy Trinity, because the whole "3 in 1 and 1 in 3" understanding assumes an understanding of the solidly Biblical and Nicene principle of the relation of the Persons of the Trinity to one another, which is best revealed in the incarnation itself, as described in John 1 and elsewhere.

Well your obviously not going to understand the trinity from reading the Book of Mormon.

 

[He is the way]

Well your obviously not going to understand the trinity from reading the Book of Mormon.

I doubt that many of those who believe in the trinity understand it.

 

[dzheremi]

I doubt that many of those who believe in the trinity understand it.

While those who are addicted to carnality may object, it can rightly be said that the Holy Trinity is not something to be intellectually understood, but rather participated in (e.g., in baptism, in communion, etc).

You don't become partakers in the divine nature by reading "On the Incarnation" or attempting to explain to Mormons the basics of Christian theology, though both may help enlighten a person, God willing.

 

[Peter1000]

We become like God, made back into his image as we previously were, it’s very different to the Mormon concept of everyone being a separate divine being.

That is not a very different concept that we can become like God. Divinity can be given by God. The concept of glorification is the giving of divinity, and this certainly is not a foreign concept.

 

[Peter1000]

None of us are begotten of God which means we don’t have divinity nor can we claim it. Mormon theology really is confusing.

It is not confusing. If we are like God and can be partakers of God's divine nature (2 Peter 1:4), then we are truly like God. The only thing that is confusing is that all your life you have never heard this doctrine or read it in the scriptures, and now that we are presenting it to you, it is confusing because it is new, but is biblical.

 

[Peter1000]

While those who are addicted to carnality may object, it can rightly be said that the Holy Trinity is not something to be intellectually understood, but rather participated in (e.g., in baptism, in communion, etc).

You don't become partakers in the divine nature by reading "On the Incarnation" or attempting to explain to Mormons the basics of Christian theology, though both may help enlighten a person, God willing.

The details of the Trinity doctrine are not basic Christian theology. Read again your mountain of words my Cyril as an example of a priest trying to explain the Trinity to his congregation. Impossible.

You become a partaker of the divine nature by believing in Jesus, and then doing what he taught us to do to be a good Christian, then by his grace only are you allowed to partake of the godly attribute of the divine nature, and have God's divine nature. It is not a foreign doctrine in the scriptures.

It is foreign to doctors, philosophers, and scholars of the apostasy.