Thanks for at least a respectful response. And in fairness to you I do see you posting some scripture and Calvin quotes back around thread
#74 and vicinity. To me any of our debates on these topics necessitate scriptural reference, so kudos for that and may your willingness to talk about the Bible spread and flourish to others too.
I think that even though we don't agree, we can certainly treat each other with respect as Jesus would want.
In fact Jesus said we would be known as being His disciples for the love we have for each other.
John 13:35
My concerns were with comments like:
[to user John Mullally] "Speaking of self-delusion...have you ever run across this teaching of Calvin?" and elsewhere "I hope you know that Calvin's whole theory came about because he couldn't reconcile man's free will with God's sovereignty. Is that crazy or what?"
Actually, as I'm sure you know, the above is true.
It seems that it had to be God's sovereignty and no free will for man
or
free will for man, but this somehow removed God's total sovereignty.
Something my small brain sees no problem with...
It seems to me that my having free will is right in line with God's sovereignty...
why would an all powerful and mighty and sovereign God be fearful of allowing man to have free will?
As I stated earlier, I do find it very interesting why anti-Calvinists take the position and noted aggressiveness that they do, given the seeming lack of anti-Arminian threads. Maybe you have an example thread where Calvinists were being boorish trolls? I would have the same criticism for them as I do for some in this thread.
There shouldn't be any anti-arminiun threads because other Christians do not consider themselves to be arminium.
I know that Jacob A. started out as a predestination believer, but then he changed and that's about all I know about him.
Also, I think it's important to note that we are following Jesus...
we shouldn't be believers of Calvin, Arminius, or anyone esle.
They are men, just like all other men that were not charismatic enough to begin their own religion.
(faith).
If you're willing to look inward, maybe you can answer - and I mean this seriously - a question or two:
- What do you gain by opposing Calvinism in the manner above? Do you believe we are not in Christ and thus you're "saving" us?
- Do you believe that Calvinists think YOU are not in Christ?
- Are you equally spending time with Roman Catholics or the forum's cast of atheists because they too presumably differ from your worldview?
I would have to presume that if you joined these forums and like me were routinely awash in less-than-Christianly-civil debates regarding your understanding of God you'd be curious too, no?
Thanks for whatever illumination you can provide.
1. Nothing is to be gained if I address you "in the manner above". When I'm mistreated, I just tune out the other poster.
I can tell you why I, and most other Christians, take calvinism negatively.
We're not just debating or discussing doctrine here.
What we're discussing is the very nature of God.
We can get doctrine wrong - but can we get the nature of God wrong?
If God is as the bible portrays Him, He is certainly a loving, merciful and just God.
If He IS all these qualities, then how can it possibly be that God desires some to be saved and some to be damned?
And for His own glory, no less.
How does arbitrarily choosing some for eternal torment give Him glory?
Does God have to prove His sovereignty to man by using him as playthings?
Personally, I believe you're saved because you live for God and this is what matters.
I don't believe that a mistaken doctrine will cause a man to lose his soul...
However, the reformed are the only Christians that believe in this God that creates evil
and uses it for His own purposes.
A God that chooses only some for heaven and doesn't even allow us to know WHY.
2. I don't know what calvinists think about me. Honestly, I don't care.
I only care what God thinks of me. I do notice that after a few posts they kind of get tired of posting -
it might be me, I don't know...but it seems as though they get a little upset with most everyone.
Of course, this does not mean every calvinist.
3. I spend REAL time with atheists in the real world. I'm not on forums too much due to the time it takes to post properly.
Catholics are nice people but they're not too familiar with their faith.
However, I'll address those issues too at times - I must say that I know both Protestant and Catholic doctrine.
To repeat, I believe the reason calvinism is more interesting, to me at least, is because the reformed seem to believe in a
different God/gospel.
In fact where is the good news in calvinism?
Was the NT written for everyone, or just the saved that were chosen by God?
Take John 3:16
I think it's prescriptive.
But you, necessarily, have to believe it's descriptive.
Why would Jesus state this at all, if it were not of the utmost importance?
If it was just to let those that are saved, know they are saved?
Or did He state this to let mankind know HOW to become saved?
Wasn't this His primary reason for coming to us?