How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

GodsGrace101 · Nov 18, 2022

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, GG101

You asked John answered: "Where does it state in the NT (or OT) that man is UNABLE to come to Christ"

No one can come in John 6:44 means man is unable (unless God does something).

No man "can" universal inability to come.

John says that no one can come to the Son unless the Father draw him.
God Father draws everyone because He wishes all men to be saved.
This is stated plainly in 1 Timothy 2:4
Also, in 2 Peter 3:9

In Revelation 3:20 we're told that Jesus stands at the door and knocks...it's up to us to open the door.
In Matthew 7:8 we're told that everyone that asks will receive, he who seeks will find, and he that knocks to him it will be opened.

Also, He who seeks finds...as also God can be sought as proven by many verses which I'll be happy to post.
Hebrews 11:6
...for whoever would draw near to God must believe that he exists and that he rewards those who seek him.

Proverbs 8:17
I love those who love me, and those who seek me diligently find me.

and many more...

I cannot think of a verse that states that man is unable to seek after God.

BBAS 64 said:
I disagree you are not reading Jer 31 correctly.

He does not under the OC he chose Israel from all the other nations,? They were His by His own explicit choice where they not.

Was he unjust in not picking Egypt as his own?

Why do you think the the NC is any different?

The NC is different precisely because in the OT and the OC God decided He wanted to reveal Himself in an area of the world which was inhabited by many different gods. He revealed Himself as the one and only God.
He made covenants ONLY with the Hebrews and Israeles.

The NC is for EVERYONE.
The new King was to be the King of the entire world...not just the Jews.
Everyone would be welcomed into the NC.

BBAS 64 said:
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord: I will put my laws into their minds, and write them on their hearts, and I will be their God, and they shall be my people. And they shall not teach, each one his neighbor and each one his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest. For I will be merciful toward their iniquities, and I will remember their sins no more.” In speaking of a new covenant, he makes the first one obsolete. And what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.

If you read Hebrews you might learn that when the NC came the OC became obsolete.
Those studying the covenants know that this is not true.
No covenant abolished the previous one but only changed something about it or made it better.

BBAS 64 said:
So now the NT writer rounds out the outcome of the NC from Jer.

So the pronoun "their" means every single person ever born in your mind.

If the NC includes everyone (every single person) then you must believe that all are under the NC people and God god does not remember any bodies sins.

In Him,

Bill

Bill, I don't know what you mean by the above.
Every single person born on earth is welcomed to the NC.
And once a person turns to God and becomes a member of His Kingdom here, then yes, He surely forgets their sins - at least the previous ones.

GodsGrace101 · Nov 18, 2022

John Owen said:
NO, the Father does not draw everyone. You are reading your Arminian interpretation into that text.

I'm reading the bible.
I don't follow any man...not Arminius, not Calvin, not anyone.
I follow Jesus of Nazareth and live by what HE taught.
And He did not teach predestination.
If you could find some verses where you think He did, I'd like to see them.

The Father draws everyone because He desires that everyone be saved.
It's up to us to reply with a Yes or a No.

Jesus stands at the door and knocks.
Why is He knocking if it's God that does the choosing?

GodsGrace101 · Nov 18, 2022

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, GG101

That depends if you are talking about the verb form of the Greek or the noun form.

Verbs and nouns are not the same in function, nor do they mean the same thing.

In Him,

Bill

Please ask any 10 year old what foreknowledge means.
Do you suppose God makes us need to know Greek and grammar in order to find Him?
Jesus made it simple,
we make it difficult.

GodsGrace101 · Nov 18, 2022

Clare73 said:
No, Biblically, "foreknowledge" (prognosis)
is used only of God, and
it refers to him knowing his actions, it does not refer to him knowing others' actions.

The NT does not refer to God knowing what is going to happen (foreknowledge) apart from his own actions.

This is most interesting.
God, the creator of the universe, does not know the future.
HE, who stands up high above us and sees time all at once,
cannot see the future.

Most interesting.
Are you reformed?
The reformed believe God PREDESTINATED EVERYTHING...
and here you are believing God does not know what man will choose.

GodsGrace101 · Nov 18, 2022

BBAS 64 said:
Good Day, GG101

The above sentence is true...

I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and you shall keep mine ordinances, and do them.

God is the primary cause of our walking and pour (shall) keeping. That is the purpose ( to Cause) stated for God Putting His Spirit within us.

I do give all the credit to God as he claims it for himself Salvation is of the Lord.

Change ...no it it much more radical than that he removes... and replaces.

A wicked Heart only desires wicked, things we get a new one fashioned by God for His purposes.

Now You may feel so inclined to assign responsibility to God when you sin, but in reality Scripture does not teach that. But it clearly teaches that God is the cause of or walking and keeping.

If you have another understanding of that text it would be nice if you shared it as you have avoided the text it self.

Now we know and Scripture teaches that God could stop us from sinning, why is it he does not?

"Then God said to him in the dream, “Yes, I know that you have done this in the integrity of your heart, and it was I who kept you from sinning against me. Therefore I did not let you touch her."

Yes those who Christ has transferred from the Darkness into Light come because they have been transferred James and Romans are written to believers.

Reformed theology teaches God bears sin well there is a baseless assertion... would you care to provide your primary historical source for this.

In Him,

Bill

Bill, I'll be happy to answer any question you have,
the problem is I don't understand what you and I are discussing from the above.
First, which text are you speaking of that I didn't address?
And what am I supposed to state my historical source for?
Thanks.

GodsGrace101 · Nov 18, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
Ask God! But he doesn't punish them for not repenting. If anything there, it is for rejecting him. But they were guilty before that. Born in sin.

How does a person reject God if it's God that predestinated him to reject Him?
That doesn't make sense...
Of course he's going to reject God.
That's what God wanted of him.

GodsGrace101 · Nov 18, 2022

J Mick said:
what's a Calvinist?

Has anyone answered you?

A Calvinist is a person that is of the reformed faith that came about in the 1,500's.
It's called calvinism because it's more understood by most persons.

Calvin believed in double predestination.
This means that:
MAN HAS NO FREE WILL
MAN IS TOTALLY UNABLE TO SEEK OR FIND GOD
GOD HAS TO CHOSE WHOM WILL BE SAVED BECAUSE OF THE ABOVE.

Calvinism is explained by the acronym T.U.L.I.P.
This acronym was explained in the 1930's if I remember correctly.

See the following for an explanation:
Please note that calvinism is not biblical and was never accepted by the church.

T Total Depravity: Man is born totally depraved and is unable to seek God or find Him.
U Unconditional Election: Because of the above, it is God that chooses who will be saved and who will be damned.
L Limited Atonement: Jesus did not die for the whole world, but only for the chosen by God.
I Irresistible Grace: When God wants to save someone, His grace is irristible - the person will be saved.
P Perseverance of the Saints: If a person is chosen by God, he will persevere till the end and never forfeit his salvation.

GodsGrace101 · Nov 18, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
Wait. I thought, by Church Fathers, you were referring to the early church after the Bible was written. What ARE you talking about now, with this Apostolic succession?

By Early Church Fathers two ideas are accepted by different theologians:
1. They are the Apostolic and Early Fathers that were taught by the Apostles until the year 325AD
2. Ditto except some theologians accept that they are early fathers until about 600 or even 700AD

I agree with number 1.
After the Council of Nicea, in the year 325AD, the church aligned itself with states (governments) and it became impure.

zoidar · Nov 18, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
The term, "foreknow", is for the sake of our temporal minds. Exactly right, that God didn't need to foreknow it, if "foreknow" is only 'looking into the future'. From his perspective it is already done. It is we who need to separate concepts of "speaking into being" vs "causing by long-chain cause-and-effect". God is not constrained by time. Therefore, he has no need to look into the future to decide what to cause. HE is the cause of the future, and all who inhabit it.

Notice in Hebrews 2, the odd use of tenses:
7 "You made him for a little while lower than the angels;
you have crowned him with glory and honor,
8 putting everything in subjection under his feet.”
"Now in putting everything in subjection to him, he left nothing outside his control. At present, we do not yet see everything in subjection to him."

Here we see completed action, past tense* ("made"), of a temporal assignment ("for a little while"), and again completed action, ("crowned", "put in subjection"), with the difference between God's economy and our temporal economy, pointed at for explanation in, ([But,] "At present, we do not yet see it under subjection.")

*I assume the past tense, for the sake of clarity of my point here. The aorist doesn't have to mean past, it can just as well be future; it only implies a point-of-action, not a present continuing action, nor even a past (or future) "for-a-while" action. In fact, I find it suggestive of the notion of God's timeless economy of operation, that he chose the Greek, which has these curiously un-English tenses, particularly with the aorist that has no reference to our position in a timeline.

And the Hebrews reference here is by no means the only one hinting at this distinction. And some of the references don't even use the aorist to do it.

To me, then, this is relevant to the discussion of his foreknowing and decreeing. He doesn't need to look into the future. He spoke the future into having already happened. We just don't see it that way.

As a side note, God's "non-temporal-based decree" (i.e. God speaking it all into being) point of view here is also relevant to the question of Free Will vs Predestination, and also, 'regeneration prior to faith' vs 'faith prior to regeneration'. If it is (awkwardly, no doubt) descriptive of the reality of the matter, that God has spoken a temporal envelope, perhaps billions of years long or longer, into being with just a word, the envelope of time and all that is within it, (described from within our language), can only be said to be 'already accomplished', 'completed', though "we do not yet see it [that way]".

Now, I suspect the truth of the matter is that this I have described, which is only "a way to look at it", is a lot more incomprehensible to us at present than what I have attempted to describe. But more on that another day, I hope. Thanks for listening, brother.

I will say we both know by now, we have a different view of things, different view on how God operate and so on. Some things I KNOW and won't budge on and on other areas I'm more flexible, as long as it fits with what I KNOW is true. Thanks for calling me brother! I normally don't call my Christian friends brothers, but sure we are a family in Christ, so thanks brother!

GodsGrace101 · Nov 18, 2022

Mark Quayle said:
Your post here doesn't make much sense to me. Why should God be considered unjust by not telling us HOW he picked?

Because the just God that I know tells us HOW we can come to salvation.
If God doesn't tell HOW He picks it means He doesn't care if we're saved or not.
That would not be a merciful God or a just God.

Mark Quayle said:
But, regardless, Unconditional Election doesn't prohibit us from knowing HOW. Unconditional Election just does not address HOW God picked us. It only states that we did not earn it —that his election is not contingent on anything we are, or that we did or can do. You have to look elsewhere for HOW.

Where Mark?
If God doesn't tell me how I can be saved...
where do I look?
None of us earned salvation...this is why a plan was set into place from the beginning.

For instance, 1 Cor 15:2 tells us that it is this good news that saves us if we continue to believe in the message Paul gave.
Christ died for our sins.
He was buried and raised from the dead.

Romans also tells us how we can be saved...
Romans 5:1
1Therefore, since we have been made right in God’s sight by faith, we have peace with God because of what Jesus Christ our Lord has done for us.
2Because of our faith, Christ has brought us into this place of undeserved privilege where we now stand, and we confidently and joyfully look forward to sharing God’s glory.

And God has shown us the way to be saved:

Romans 3:21
21But now God has shown us a way to be made right with him without keeping the requirements of the law, as was promised in the writings of Moses and the prophets long ago.
22We are made right with God by placing our faith in Jesus Christ. And this is true for everyone who believes, no matter who we are.

We are made right by placing our faith in Jesus...
an action we must take.

Mark Quayle said:
He does tell us quite a bit about it, though, in general. He tells us what he made us for. That, at least, is WHY, if not how. If you want means, it is by the counsel of his own will. If you want method, by the authority of his Word. Not that justice obligates him to tell us anything, though. He owes us nothing. Why should he let us in on his secrets? Do we need to know them in order to walk in them? Not at all. We fulfill them, willy-nilly, even when we oppose him. But fulfilling his plans is not our responsibility. Obedience is.

Seems to me like He DID let us in on His secrets.
Don't the above verses support this?

As to justice:

Romans 2:5-6
5But because you are stubborn and refuse to turn from your sin, you are storing up terrible punishment for yourself. For a day of anger is coming, when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed.
6He will judge everyone according to what they have done.
7He will give eternal life to those who keep on doing good, seeking after the glory and honor and immortality that God offers. 8But he will pour out his anger and wrath on those who live for themselves, who refuse to obey the truth and instead live lives of wickedness.

God will give eternal life to those SEEKING AFTER THE GLORY AND HONOR AND IMMORTALITY THAT GOD OFFERS.

God offers,
We respond.

zoidar · Nov 18, 2022

Clare73 said:
Foreknowledge is of events, not plans.

1) God's foreknowledge (prognosis) as used in the NT refers to (the meaning is) his foreknowledge of what he will do, not what man will do.

2) And in understanding the operation (the how) of his foreknowledge, it's not about some kind of miraculous sight into the future, it is simply God foreknowing events before they happen, because he has decreed they shall happen.

Sorry for the impatience (rudeness). Please forgive me.

I will start off by saying: This is not the hill to die on, at least not for me. But what (I think) we agree on is this: Foreknowledge is about knowing about events taking place in the future. Also I agree that God has predestined the event of Christ being delivered over and crucified. I'll leave it with that for now..

BNR32FAN · Nov 18, 2022

GodsGrace101 said:
I'm reading the bible.
I don't follow any man...not Arminius, not Calvin, not anyone.
I follow Jesus of Nazareth and live by what HE taught.
And He did not teach predestination.
If you could find some verses where you think He did, I'd like to see them.

The Father draws everyone because He desires that everyone be saved.
It's up to us to reply with a Yes or a No.

Jesus stands at the door and knocks.
Why is He knocking if it's God that does the choosing?

I think Revelation 2:20-23 supports your idea in this post.

“But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭2‬:‭20‬-‭23‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Clare73 · Nov 18, 2022

BNR32FAN said:
No one is born condemned. We have to sin first. We’ve been through this discussion already. It’s plainly stated right there in Romans 5:12.

Falls somewhat short of addressing the Scriptures presented.

BNR32FAN said:
“Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned”
‭‭Romans‬ ‭5‬:‭12‬ ‭NASB1995‬

Taken out of context (Ro 5:12-17), which is a demonstration of of Adam's sin being imputed to all those born of Adam, just as Christ's righteousness is imputed to all those born of Christ (Ro 5:18-19; Ro 4:1-11).

BNR32FAN · Nov 18, 2022

Clare73 said:
Falls somewhat short of addressing the Scriptures presented.

Taken out of context (Ro 5:12-17), which is a demonstration of of Adam's sin being imputed to all those born of Adam, just as Christ's righteousness is imputed to all those born of Christ (Ro 5:18-19; Ro 4:1-11).

And I’ve already proven to you that sin is never imputed.

“he keeps his hand from the poor, does not take interest or increase, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father’s iniquity, he will surely live. As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his iniquity. “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18‬:‭17‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul never actually said that sin is imputed upon us that’s just your interpretation, which contradicts the passage above.

Clare73 · Nov 18, 2022

zoidar said:
I will start off by saying: This is not the hill to die on, at least not for me. But what (I think) we agree on is this:
Foreknowledge is about knowing about events taking place in the future.

Understanding of divine foreknowledge involves two elements:

its meaning - God's knowing in advance what he is going to do;
its operation - God knows in advance what he is going to do, not because he "sees the future," but because he (knows the past; i.e., that he) has decreed from before the foundations of the world that he shall do it

zoidar said:
Also I agree that God has predestined the event of Christ being delivered over and crucified. I'll leave it with that for now..

Clare73 · Nov 18, 2022

GodsGrace101 said:
This is most interesting.
God, the creator of the universe, does not know the future.

Read my response again. . .you are "misunderstanding" it. . .again.

zoidar · Nov 18, 2022

Clare73 said:
Understanding of divine foreknowledge involves two elements:

its meaning - God's knowing in advance what he is going to do;
its operation - God knows in advance what he is going to do, not because he "sees the future," but because he (knows the past; i.e., that he) has decreed from before the foundations of the world that he shall do it

This is no scriptural argument, but why do you think God needs to decree something for Him to know it before hand. For man that might sound logical, but God is God.

Clare73 · Nov 18, 2022

BNR32FAN said:
And I’ve already proven to you that sin is never imputed.

Au contraire. . .you have not addressed Ro 5:12-15, being true to it words and consistent with its argument, where imputation is presented.

BNR32FAN said:
“he keeps his hand from the poor, does not take interest or increase, but executes My ordinances, and walks in My statutes; he will not die for his father’s iniquity, he will surely live. As for his father, because he practiced extortion, robbed his brother and did what was not good among his people, behold, he will die for his iniquity. “Yet you say, ‘Why should the son not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity?’ When the son has practiced justice and righteousness and has observed all My statutes and done them, he shall surely live. The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father’s iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son’s iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.”
‭‭Ezekiel‬ ‭18‬:‭17‬-‭20‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Paul never actually said that sin is imputed upon us that’s just your interpretation, which contradicts the passage above.

Imputation is not the "inheritance" by natural birth of Eze 18:17, as is our fallen nature.
We do not inherit Adam's sin, it is imputed to us, as the pattern of Christ (Ro 5:14).

So of what is sinful Adam the pattern for the righteous Christ?
The imputation of (the first) Adam's sin is the pattern for the imputation of (the second Adam) Christ's righteousness (Ro 4:1-11).
"JUST AS the many were made sinners, SO ALSO the many will be made righteous." (Ro 5:19)

Clare73 · Nov 18, 2022

zoidar said:
This is no scriptural argument, but why do you think God needs to decree something for Him to know it before hand. For man that might sound logical, but God is God.

Why do you think I think that?

zoidar · Nov 18, 2022

Clare73 said:
Why do you think I think that?

It sounded like that was one of your arguments why God has decreed everything, so He could foreknow everything. If you didn't mean anything like that it was a misreading on my part.

How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

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