How to become a Calvinist in 5 easy steps

[Clare73]

Well...ya, but in reference to what, my dear? To specific actions ascribed to God by Calvinism that I consider to be evil.

The question is not what you consider, the question is can you Biblically demonstrate what Calvin states is not presented in Scripture?
I haven't found anything yet which he states that is not in Scripture. . .not that I have read him extensively.

 

[ozso]

When someone asks, "how can a loving God send people to hell"?
The reply I usually hear is, "people send themselves to hell by rejecting salvation from hell".

But it seems going by the Calvin view, God does indeed send people to hell. And they have absolutely no chance, choice or hope in avoiding it?

 

[ozso]

The question is not what you consider, the question is can you Biblically demonstrate what Calvin states is not presented in Scripture?
I haven't found anything yet which he states that is not in Scripture. . .not that I have read him extensively.

Pretty much what every doctrine states can be found in scripture though. They all have a series of proof texts.

 

[dqhall]

Calvinists in CF emphasized predetermination. Everything was already decided before I was born. Free will did not seem to matter. I do not claim to be an expert in Calvinism, but there was little hope. If I helped a homeless person with a meal that is good, but to train a poor person to feed, clothe and shelter others might be better.

One preached to the congregation, “Jesus paid the price on the cross. You are going to heaven.” That sounds good, but where is the evidence of repentance? When will the good works become visible? An acorn starts small, then begins to grow. The growth is very small at first, later the oak tree has a trunk thicker than a man with thousands of leaves. Growth was programmed into its genes. My muscles grew big and strong as I worked for my daily bread. My muscles shrank as I aged and weakened. That is also in my genes. I remember Ecclesiastes, “All is vanity.” Jesus commanded people not to stumble and fall. Salvation is like being careful on the highway. Safety is important.

 

[fhansen]

The question is not what you consider, the question is can you Biblically demonstrate what Calvin states is not presented in Scripture?
I haven't found anything yet which he states that is not in Scripture. . .not that I have read him extensively.

The question is not what either you, myself, or Calvin considers but about the truth, and people of the church have struggled with this matter since far before the reformation, involving scripture, reason, and the early reception of the faith, and the one thing that has been rejected is the concept of double predestination, as against that which we know of God and His will. Otherwise we’d all be following a God not worth following anyway.

 

[Clare73]

Pretty much what every doctrine states can be found in scripture though. They all have a series of proof texts.

And those which seem contradictory to the sovereignty of God can be reconciled without contradicting either one.

 

[Clare73]

The question is not what either you, myself, or Calvin considers but about the truth, and people of the church have struggled with this matter since far before the reformation, involving scripture, reason, and the early reception of the faith, and the one thing that has been rejected is the concept of double predestination, as against that which we know of God and His will. Otherwise we’d all be following a God not worth following anyway.

How do you have single predestination (Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11)
without double predestination?
Is to include only some not necessarily to exclude all others?

 

[Clare73]

When someone asks, "how can a loving God send people to hell"?
The reply I usually hear is, "people send themselves to hell by rejecting salvation from hell".

But it seems going by the Calvin view, God does indeed send people to hell.
And they have absolutely no chance, choice or hope in avoiding it?

Or, do they send themselves to hell, and God does not choose to detour their destination?
Does he in justice owe them such detour?
If he does not (and he does not), then they have no just claim against God.

Is God not free to show mercy to some if he so chooses? (Romans 9:18)
Is he not free to leave some in justice for the sake of magnifying his mercy toward those to whom he shows it, so that his mercy may be even more understood and appreciated by them?
Scripture, with whom Calvin agrees, says he is. (Romans 9:22-23)

For God's response to man's objection to this, see Isaiah 55:8-9.

 

[fhansen]

How do you have single predestination (Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11)
without double predestination?
Is to include only some not necessarily to exclude all others?

It's how one qualifies the term "predestination" in order to understand what it means regarding God's will for man an His actions within us. It's not strict determinism, but rather includes God's foreknowledge of what we will do, then His use of our choices and actions for His own purposes. So, did God harden Pharoah's heart or did Pharoah harden Pharoah's heart? In Exodus it's said that both did, but that Pharoah hardended his own heart many more times than that God did. So the Church teaches:

600 To God, all moments of time are present in their immediacy. When therefore he establishes his eternal plan of "predestination", he includes in it each person's free response to his grace: "In this city, in fact, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place." For the sake of accomplishing his plan of salvation, God permitted the acts that flowed from their blindness.

1037 God predestines no one to go to hell; for this, a willful turning away from God (a mortal sin) is necessary, and persistence in it until the end. In the Eucharistic liturgy and in the daily prayers of her faithful, the Church implores the mercy of God, who does not want "any to perish, but all to come to repentance".

Related to this is the case of Joseph and his brothers in Genesis:
"But Joseph replied, “Do not be afraid. Am I in the place of God? As for you, what you intended against me for evil, God intended for good, in order to accomplish a day like this—to preserve the lives of many people." Gen 50:20-21

 

[Clare73]

It's how one qualifies the term "predestination" in order to understand what it means regarding God's will for man an His actions within us. It's not strict determinism, but rather includes God's foreknowledge of what we will do,

The problem with that is divine "foreknowledge" in the Bible is never used of God knowing in advance what man will do, it is always of God knowing what he will do because before the foundations of the world, he decreed that he shall do it.

Acts 15:18 - "Known to the Lord for ages (foreknowledge) is his work."

Isaiah 48:3 - "I foretold (forekowledge) the former things of long ago,
my mouth announced (decreed) them, and I made them known;
then suddenly I acted, (foreknowledge executed), and they came to pass.

God executed in their present the purpose and choice he made before the foundations of the world; i.e.,
God executed/accomplished (acted according to)
his foreknowledge (his previous purpose and choice). . .as in Jacob (Romans 9:11-12).

then His use of our choices and actions for His own purposes. So, did God harden Pharoah's heart or did Pharoah harden Pharoah's heart? In Exodus it's said that both did, but that Pharoah hardended his own heart many more times than that God did.

It appears in Exodus 4:21 for the first time, before Moses had even left Midian to go to Pharaoh.

And God doesn't have to harden our unregenerate hearts, they are already hardened, we were born with hardened hearts, by nature (with which we were born) objects of wrath (Ephesians 2:3).
All he has to do is not soften them, just leave us to ourselves, which is what he did with Pharaoh, and Pharaoh's own self-will resisted God's will, hardening his heart further himself. God didn't have to do a thing, but to not soften it, which is why the text repeatedly states that Pharaoh hardened his own heart.

 

[ozso]

And those which seem contradictory to the sovereignty of God can be reconciled without contradicting either one.

As for the sovereignty of God, most agree that God is the supreme power and authority. It's the nature of God as described in scripture, which certain doctrines seem to contradict. In other words, the question isn't could God do whatever, since God can can do anything. The question is would God do whatever.

 

[ozso]

Or, do they send themselves to hell, and God does not choose to detour their destination?
Does he in justice owe them such detour?
If he does not (and he does not), then they have no just claim against God.

Is God not free to show mercy to some if he so chooses? (Romans 9:18)
Is he not free to leave some in justice for the sake of magnifying his mercy toward those to whom he shows it, so that his mercy may be even more understood and appreciated by them?
Scripture, with whom Calvin agrees, says he is. (Romans 9:22-23)

For God's response to man's objection to this, see Isaiah 55:8-9.

It doesn't seem that would amount to them sending themselves to hell though, if God predestined them to go there no matter what.

The Calvinist / Reformed interpretation of Romans 9 didn't exist until 1500 years after it was written.

And according to what I looked up, currently only about 80 million out of 800 million (10%) Protestants are Calvinist / Reformed.

 

[Rapture Bound]

As for the sovereignty of God, most agree that God is the supreme power and authority. It's the nature of God as described in scripture, which certain doctrines seem to contradict. In other words, the question isn't could God do whatever, since God can can do anything. The question is would God do whatever.

"The question is would God do whatever" ... good point. As it pertains to the redemption of humanity ... I do not believe that man's possession of free moral agency detracts from God's sovereignty whatsoever [as some suppose]; after all, His decision to grant it was His sovereign will.

 

[Clare73]

As for the sovereignty of God, most agree that God is the supreme power and authority. It's the nature of God as described in scripture, which certain doctrines seem to contradict. In other words, the question isn't could God do whatever, since God can can do anything.
The question is would God do whatever.

Actually, the question is did God do whatever?

"Would" is speculation, unless it is contrary to a command.

 

[Clare73]

It doesn't seem that would amount to them sending themselves to hell though, if
God predestined them to go there no matter what.

God predestined not to save them from the hell to which they sent themselves.

The Calvinist / Reformed interpretation of Romans 9 didn't exist until 1500 years after it was written.

Irrelevant. . .all that matters is what the Scriptures actually present, no matter when it was presented.

And according to what I looked up, currently
only about 80 million out of 800 million (10%) Protestants are Calvinist / Reformed.

I suggest that is probably also about the number of born again in the world. . .demonstrating what?

 

[ICONO'CLAST]

How do you have single predestination (Romans 8:29-30; Ephesians 1:5, Ephesians 1:11)
without double predestination?

If you go grocery shopping to get 5 red pears you select or choose 5 pears you leave the other ones right where they are .
you don't force them out of your basket you just don't put them in they were never chosen

 

[Clare73]

If you go grocery shopping to get 5 red pears you select or choose 5 pears you leave the other ones right where they are .
you don't force them out of your basket you just don't put them in they were never chosen

And if there are only two outcomes for the pears, in your basket or in the garbage fire,
is your not putting them in your basket not equivalent to sending them to the fire?

 

[ozso]

God predestined not to save them from the hell to which they sent themselves.

How can they send themselves to a predestined destination?

Irrelevant. . .all that matters is what the Scriptures actually present, no matter when it was presented.

It's relevant to me. And everyone has scriptures. The SDA have gobs of scripture. But it's another doctrine that didn't exist for a thousand plus hundreds of years. I'm a little skeptical of these doctrines that God waited so long to enlighten someone with.

This isn't something someone comes up with from just reading the Bible, because if it was, many would have come up with it hundreds of years earlier. It's something one has to be indoctrinated in. Which the OP article happens to confirm.

I suggest that is probably also about the number of born again in the world. . .demonstrating what?

Are the born again in the world all Calvinists?

 

[ozso]

Actually, the question is did God do whatever.

How is that a question?

"Would" is speculation, unless it is contrary to a command.

Another word for speculation is conjecture. As in from interpreting scripture, John Calvin conjectured TULIP and predestination.

 

[Clare73]

How can they send themselves to a predestined destination?

I give up. . .how can they?
They can't.
They can send themselves to hell by their unbelief, by which unbelief they have rejected eternal life, which eternal life is the remedy for keeping them out of the condemnation to hell into which all mankind is born (Romans 5:18).
Are you not familiar with Romans?

It's relevant to me. And everyone has scriptures. The SDA have gobs of scripture. But it's another doctrine that didn't exist for a thousand plus hundreds of years. I'm a
little skeptical of these doctrines that God waited so long to enlighten someone with.

I suspect if you check church history, you will find that he didn't "wait so long to enlighten someone with."

This isn't something someone comes up with from just reading the Bible, because
if it was, many would have come up with it hundreds of years earlier.

And you know this, how?

It's something one has to be indoctrinated in. Which the OP article happens to confirm.

And you know this, how?

Are the born again in the world all Calvinists?

I don't know all the born again in the world, so I can't answer that question.