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I would say "yes" and "no". What if you could ask Paul directly what he meant? And what about all the things passed on orally by the apostles about the Scriptures you don't have access to now? You don't think that is an advantage?But in all things, they cannot go beyond the Scriptures, and if I have the Scriptures, I have what they had.
I would expect Paul to answer I meant what I said.I would say "yes" and "no". What if you could ask Paul directly what he meant?
If they are in agreement with the Scriptures, then I already have them. . .in the Scriptures with which they agree.And what about all the things passed on orally about the Scriptures you don't have access to now? You don't think that is an advantage?
I'm not sure there are enough occurences to make any conclusions since I can only find 2 instances of prosgnosis in the NT, 2 in Judith, and one in 1 Clement(commenting on 1 Pet).Have you made any conclusions from your word study? I can guess you have done one on the word "foreknowledge"?
There's a disadvantage in that as well, especially since much of what the ECF wrote has been built upon so that it may not be understood as intended(for example, Iraeneus wrote of the authority of Apostolic tradition but it appears he was talking about the New Testament rather than the Catholic/orthodox view of Apostolic tradition)The advantage of the ECF over other sources is that their writings are so close in time to Christ and to when the Bible was written. Some of them may also have been taught directly from the apostles or have been taught by those that have. I know you have pointed out they may not have had access to all books of the Bible, and that's a weakness you have to accept studying them.
I think that is a reasonable answer IF you never read commentaries and never listen to anyone laying out the Bible and never read any study guides or books about the Bible. Since you say you only need the Bible to understand the Bible.I would expect Paul to answer I meant what I said.
If they are in agreement with the Scriptures, then I already have them. . .in the Scriptures with which they agree.
If they are not in agreement with the Scriptures, I don't want them anyway.
I did not come to the Bible totally ignorant of Christianity, and I did not study the Bible without some of the great divines.I think that is a reasonable answer IF you never read commentaries and never listen to anyone laying out the Bible and never read any study guides or books about the Bible. Since you say you only need the Bible to understand the Bible.
"Great divines" ?I did not come to the Bible totally ignorant of Christianity, and I did not study the Bible without some of the great divines.
My point exactly.My favorite being Matthew Henry of several hundred years ago.
If it is not in the Scripture, is it authoritative?I would say "yes" and "no". What if you could ask Paul directly what he meant? And what about all the things passed on orally by the apostles about the Scriptures you don't have access to now? You don't think that is an advantage?
No, not like the Bible. I'm not fully sure what point you want to make. Then we have no real value of the ECF writings? Is that it? I would say we would have great value of having a Bible study lead by Paul. More so than of Matthew Henry, Martin Luther or any other theologian. In all humbleness I think we all should agree on that? I'm sure Paul would teach us things from the Bible that have never entered our minds before, not from any theologian and not from any Bible study. At least I'm sure about that.If it is not in the Scripture, is it authoritative?
I don't know if there is something implied by calling a theologian divine. It sounded embarrassing to me. If it just means a teacher of theology, then fine.There is more than one meaning for "divine."
But let us think about this a little. Were Jesus' words authoritative that never got into the Bible? We would have to say "Yes!" Then were Jesus' words that never got into the Bible, that were passed on orally by the apostles authoritative? Hm...If it is not in the Scripture, is it authoritative?
As a fallible person, you have no right to presume that, not when 100 billion souls are potentially at stake. Anyone could shirk a real responsibility by using such words. If my aged parents are starving, and I refuse to feed them, I could deflect with, "Nobody's hunger depends on my doctrine or practice. I'm not the only tool in the divine tool box."Nobody's soul depends on my doctrine nor practice.
I'm not the only tool in the divine tool box.
Certainly. I just wanted to know where you stand on that. There are several here who seem to me to give them an inordinate amount of weight and authority, as though they were almost apostles or something. To me the notion that they are nearly infallible is ludicrous.No, not like the Bible. I'm not fully sure what point you want to make. Then we have no real value of the ECF writings? Is that it? I would say we would have great value of having a Bible study lead by Paul. More so than of Matthew Henry, Martin Luther or any other theologian. In all humbleness I think we all can agree on that? I'm sure Paul would teach us things from the Bible that have never entered our minds before, not from any theologian and not from any Bible study. At least I'm sure about that.
Interesting thoughts. But not everything the apostles did and said were authoritative, as Paul himself said even within scripture, as though in parenthesis, "To the rest I say—I and not the Lord—...", and as we know, Peter got sidetracked in giving ground to the Judaisers. Were anyone's quotes of Jesus' words, if not included in Scripture, authoritative for nowadays as what Jesus really said?But let us think about this a little. Were Jesus' words authoritative that never got into the Bible? We would have to say "Yes!" Then were Jesus' words that never got into the Bible, that were passed on orally by the apostles authoritative? Hm...
Do we believe everything the apostles shared from Jesus is in the Bible? Hm ...
I think you are right, but I will share a short story from life. I got saved in summer of 2010. Shortly after that when I was out walking the Holy Spirit told me to go up to a person with a "message" from God. For some reason it made me terrified, thinking what would happen if I did. I hesitated for some time and the opportunity went by. This lead me to the worst "faith crises" in my life, but that is another story. Anyhow, this woman the Holy Spirit told me to go up to, will someone else deliver that message to her? Or was I responsible for her not getting the message, and possibly not being saved. I have thought about this a lot.As a fallible person, you have no right to presume that, not when 100 billion souls are potentially at stake. Anyone could shirk a real responsibility by using such words. If my aged parents are starving, and I refuse to feed them, I could deflect with, "Nobody's hunger depends on my doctrine or practice. I'm not the only tool in the divine tool box."
Funny how, earlier in the debate, you insisted that Calvinism isn't likely to degrade one's commitment to reaching the lost. You didn't fool me then, and you certainly don't fool me now. Your words confirm it, "Nobody's soul depends on my doctrine nor practice."
We can't hold them for being authoritative, because we don't know that Jesus really said them. But if they are Jesus' words they surely are authoritative anyhow.Interesting thoughts. But not everything the apostles did and said were authoritative, as Paul himself said even within scripture, as though in parenthesis, "To the rest I say—I and not the Lord—...", and as we know, Peter got sidetracked in giving ground to the Judaisers. Were anyone's quotes of Jesus' words, if not included in Scripture, authoritative for nowadays as what Jesus really said?
Reminds me of a 50 yr old Monty Python skit that repeats "Sorry squire I scratched the record".Funny how I could say the same. Scratched LP
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