How to Approach Sin in Church?

Catherineanne · Aug 15, 2011

Ortho_Cat said:
If what somebody wears or does causes a brother or sister to stumble, especially in a house of God, it is indeed the churches business. I would advise to take the matter up with your pastor.

If I happened to be in a church where every other person was stark naked I would still keep my mind on God. That is why we close our eyes to pray; so, if you don't want to look at it, shut your eyes.

It is not the job of other people to keep my mind on God. It is mine.

Ortho_Cat · Aug 15, 2011

Catherineanne said:
If I happened to be in a church where every other person was stark naked I would still keep my mind on God. That is why we close our eyes to pray; so, if you don't want to look at it, shut your eyes.

It is not the job of other people to keep my mind on God. It is mine.

I admire your focus, but many men like myself, do not have such inner strength unfortunately...

I don't close my eyes to pray usually, as most of the service we are praying, and if i close my eyes i would no longer be able to see all the lovely icons all over the walls...

The NT emphasizes modesty in dress with respect to women for a reason (headcoverings, etc.)

Catherineanne · Aug 15, 2011

Ortho_Cat said:
I admire your focus, but many men like myself, do not have such inner strength unfortunately...

It isn't inner strength, just prayer. Spend the whole service in prayer. If you don't want to close your eyes, then look at the floor.

Church is not a fashion show, or a spectacle to watch. It is meeting with God.

I don't close my eyes to pray usually, as most of the service we are praying, and if i close my eyes i would no longer be able to see all the lovely icons all over the walls...

Even better; you have icons.

Look at the icons, and forget the women. You can look at them the rest of the week.

Buzzy · Aug 15, 2011

Catherineanne said:
If I happened to be in a church where every other person was stark naked I would still keep my mind on God. That is why we close our eyes to pray; so, if you don't want to look at it, shut your eyes.

It is not the job of other people to keep my mind on God. It is mine.

Not a pretty sight at my chuch I'm afraid and although I understand your seriousness I had to laugh at the thought.

Celtic D · Aug 15, 2011

Ortho_Cat said:
I admire your focus, but many men like myself, do not have such inner strength unfortunately...

I don't close my eyes to pray usually, as most of the service we are praying, and if i close my eyes i would no longer be able to see all the lovely icons all over the walls...

The NT emphasizes modesty in dress with respect to women for a reason (headcoverings, etc.)

I always love how it is always with respect to women - so are you sugesting that it is OK for men to dress immodestly then?

Head coverings are nothing to do with modesty. An uncovered head is not immodest!

Catherineanne · Aug 15, 2011

Buzzy said:
Not a pretty sight at my chuch I'm afraid and although I understand your seriousness I had to laugh at the thought.

Good. Me too.

Ortho_Cat · Aug 15, 2011

Celtic D said:
I always love how it is always with respect to women - so are you sugesting that it is OK for men to dress immodestly then?

Head coverings are nothing to do with modesty. An uncovered head is not immodest!

No, but how often do you see men dressed immodestly (i.e. seductive) in a church setting? I've never seen it. Plus, men are more visually orientated when it comes to arousal, so we are more susceptible to being tempted visually. Paul knew what he was talking about

SoldierOfSoul · Aug 15, 2011

Celtic D said:
Head coverings are nothing to do with modesty. An uncovered head is not immodest!

You lady folk better keep those heads covered! Can't have a whole bunch of immodest heads runnin' around.

Celtic D · Aug 15, 2011

Ortho_Cat said:
No, but how often do you see men dressed immodestly (i.e. seductive) in a church setting? I've never seen it. Plus, men are more visually orientated when it comes to arousal, so we are more susceptible to being tempted visually. Paul knew what he was talking about

I have to admit I have not seen either immodest males or females in any church I've been in - I suppose mind you one has to define what one thinks immodesty is.

I note you failed to address the head covering issue.

Celtic D · Aug 15, 2011

SoldierOfSoul said:
You lady folk better keep those heads covered! Can't have a whole bunch of immodest heads runnin' around.

RFLOL

Buzzy · Aug 15, 2011

Honestly, I haven't seen much immodesty in any church I attend either (and I sometimes go to two or three different ones a week) although I did have to mention to a cowboy that church wasn't a good place to wear his hat.

Catherineanne · Aug 16, 2011

Ortho_Cat said:
No, but how often do you see men dressed immodestly (i.e. seductive) in a church setting?

Something you may not know about women (not that I can speak for all of us, but this is the consensus among my friends at least). Naked does not equal seductive. We like to see a man covered up; a nicely dressed man in a suit is far more attractive than a man in shorts and tshirt.

Therefore, for women, a man coming half bare to church does nothing whatever. Bare knees, sandals, whatever; not attractive.

Perhaps men can learn from this; mystery is far better than everything hanging out for all to see. Appreciate the ones who are hidden, rather than those who are not.

Catherineanne · Aug 16, 2011

Celtic D said:
I have to admit I have not seen either immodest males or females in any church I've been in - I suppose mind you one has to define what one thinks immodesty is.

I note you failed to address the head covering issue.

I think a better word might be appropriate and inappropriate, to get away from the moral weighting.

Last Sunday I was sitting next to a lady who had mule sandals on, and bare legs. She was not a young lady, and she was properly covered everywhere else, but during the service she kept on slipping her feet out of her sandals and it really was not a pretty sight.

There was nothing immodest about it, and really nothing at all sinful, but I thought at the time, I couldn't do that. Then I glanced at the lady on the other side of me, to see what shoes she had on. Mule sandals and bare legs.

Then I decided, it isn't them, it's me.

TheDag · Aug 16, 2011

Ortho_Cat said:
No, but how often do you see men dressed immodestly (i.e. seductive) in a church setting? I've never seen it. Plus, men are more visually orientated when it comes to arousal, so we are more susceptible to being tempted visually. Paul knew what he was talking about

Remember it is still your problem not the womans problem. If a man is struggling because of lack of self-control then he should approach the woman in humility and request their help. He should explain that he is weak and struggles and wants to overcome the problem of lust but in the early stages would the woman concerned please be kind enough to help by wearing less revealing clothing.

Possibly she may not have any so be prepared to get some gift vouchers for stores so she can buy some new clothes to show you are serious. Of course if you are not going to make an effort to overcome the lack of self-control then you have no right asking anything.
All too often men want to use the line but we have more testosterone and we are more visually stimulated. SO WHAT??? That is no excuse for not having self-control.

TheDag · Aug 16, 2011

Several people have raised the issue of definition of modesty. The bible actually says very little specifically about modesty. It mentions head coverings. Is that in relation to modesty? Lets assume for a second that it is. That is one item of clothing. It says nothing about other items of clothing and what is appropiate. The favourite verse concerning modesty is 1 Timothy 2:9-10. Once again these verses make no mention of clothes at all. Rather it teaches a principle to follow. That principle is don't dress in a way that draws attention to you. A good example of that rule being broken is a situation in the Salvation Army (Salvos) church I once attended. For those who don't know many people who attend the Salvos wear a uniform. There is a summer and winter uniform complete with official dates for wearing them! The rule was that the band should all wear the same uniform, that is either all wear summer uniform or all wear winter uniform. One person believed that they should always wear long sleeves. By dressing in a long sleeved shirt rather than short sleeved he was being immodest! Why because he was drawing attention to himself by dressing differently. If he had not been in the band then no problem.

powerpoint · Aug 16, 2011

cloud_sync said:
What is the appropriate approach in correcting an entire church sliding into immodesty?

Would Jesus have judged these people for what they wear? Bearing in mind he hund around prostitutes, tax collectors and other undesirables?

Short answer: No

Long answer: Noooooooooooooooooooooo

The important thing is they see the love of Christ and they hear the good news, not that they conform to some pre-concieved idea you have of whats appropriate and whats not.

I guess what I'm saying is, well, just get over it. I admit that sounds harsh, but frankly, it sounds like you're making legalistic judgements based on your own opinions.

cloud_sync · Aug 16, 2011

I don't believe that sleeveless shirts, shorts, or sandals are immodest, unless you can show me otherwise in the scriptures. This borderline I speak of might be me beating around the bush out of love. I don't attend these churches right now. Some of my friends are attending a church that is facing this issue. A few people in the church have recognized it. I was wondering what God expects us to do. 1 Corinthians and Revelation (the 7 churches) seem to have some relevance to the situation.

How is it that a gym can require a certain kind of dress and conduct of its users and no one bats an eye, but a church service, which is to be reflective of God's holiness, purity, and profundity, is expected to tolerate whatever dress and behaviour comes through the door?

This makes sense.

Ortho_Cat · Aug 16, 2011

some relevant verses:

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]I also want women to dress modestly, with decency and propriety, not with braided hair or gold or pearls or expensive clothes, but with good deeds, appropriate for women who profess to worship God.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] (NIV, 1 Timothy 2:9-10)[/FONT]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica]Your beauty should not come from outward adornment, such as braided hair and the wearing of gold jewelry and fine clothes. Instead, it should be that of your inner self, the unfading beauty of a gentle and quiet spirit, which is of great worth in God's sight. For this is the way the holy women of the past who put their hope in God used to make themselves beautiful.[/FONT][FONT=Arial, Helvetica] (NIV, 1 Peter 3:2-5)[/FONT]

Any man who prays or prophesies with something on his head disgraces his head, but any woman who prays or prophesies with her head unveiled disgraces her head--it is one and the same thing as having her head shaved. For if a woman will not veil herself, then she should cut off her hair; but if it is disgraceful for a woman to have her hair cut off or to be shaved, she should wear a veil. For a man ought not to have his head veiled, since he is the image and reflection of God; but woman is the reflection of man. (NRSV, 1 Corinthians 11:4-7

some commentary on 1 Tim 2:9:

http://bible.cc/1_timothy/2-9.htm

BFine · Aug 16, 2011

My granny had this rule...actually she got it from her granny
so it's been passed down the family tree a long time.

I have used her guide ever since I can remember lol!

Her guide-- If a woman can bend over and put her hands on her
knees and not reveal her bra/bosom and not show her step-ins(underwear)
then what she has on is fine.
If a woman is wearing clothing that is see-through she needs to put on
a slip or camisole so she isn't revealing "herself".

That is why I own slips and camisoles and I have been acquainted
with them since childhood.
I do wish I could afford silk ones though...oh well, dream on! LOL!

Avniel · Aug 17, 2011

What is modesty? How much does culture play a role in modesty?

Also I think people pay to much attention to how people dress in church. Instead of worrying if these women are modest dressers lets worry about if they know we love them lets worry about if there spiritual needs are being met.

We as Christian have so much work that needs to be done that yworrying about someones swaggga is trivial

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