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oceansmile

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I recently mentioned to my (RC) husband that I was looking into the Anglican Church. His snotty reply? "Why would you want to join a church that was started because someone wanted a divorce?"

Maybe I'm unfamiliar with some part of Anglican history, but, well, it seems like he's got a point. Obviously there are more difference between Roman Catholicism but the history seems pretty clear? Am I missing something? How do you respond to this accusation if you hear it?

PS - I hope I am not violating rules against debating in this forum by posting this. I am honestly interested in Anglicanism and curious about this.
 

PaladinValer

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I recently mentioned to my (RC) husband that I was looking into the Anglican Church. His snotty reply? "Why would you want to join a church that was started because someone wanted a divorce?"

Often said, but not true.

Maybe I'm unfamiliar with some part of Anglican history, but, well, it seems like he's got a point. Obviously there are more difference between Roman Catholicism but the history seems pretty clear? Am I missing something? How do you respond to this accusation if you hear it?

Anglicanism was not begun because of a divorce for two reasons:

1. King Henry VIII did NOT ask for a divorce but wanted an annulment.
2. Anglicanism is older than that.

PS - I hope I am not violating rules against debating in this forum by posting this. I am honestly interested in Anglicanism and curious about this.

No problems asking questions! :)
 
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mark46

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So, Catholics in Henry's time called divorce "annulment". That is still the case.

Often said, but not true.



Anglicanism was not begun because of a divorce for two reasons:

1. King Henry VIII did NOT ask for a divorce but wanted an annulment.
2. Anglicanism is older than that.



No problems asking questions! :)
 
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I recently mentioned to my (RC) husband that I was looking into the Anglican Church. His snotty reply? "Why would you want to join a church that was started because someone wanted a divorce?"

Maybe I'm unfamiliar with some part of Anglican history, but, well, it seems like he's got a point. Obviously there are more difference between Roman Catholicism but the history seems pretty clear? Am I missing something? How do you respond to this accusation if you hear it?

PS - I hope I am not violating rules against debating in this forum by posting this. I am honestly interested in Anglicanism and curious about this.

I think the problem with this argument is that, despite Henry VIII's desire for an annulment, not even he could have done what he did 100 years previously. The main driver for the sustained break with Rome & doctrinal change was the reformation taking place throughout Europe and its supporters in England, who saw Henry's predicament as a useful spark with which to further cause.

Also, the Anglican Church itself did not 'start' with Henry VIII. The church in England had been around for ages. It just happened to no longer acknowledge the primacy of Rome at this point (which had happened previously and would happen again under Elizabeth).
 
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Albion

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You already have good answers, but keep in mind that Henry's problem was the OCCASION for a BREAK with the Papacy. It did not create a new church or even, in Henry's time, change the faith.

He wanted to have Englishmen govern English affairs rather than Italians--an opinion that was widespread and growing among many other northern Europeans at the time. And, regardless of what anyone thinks of Henry, the English church HAD been independent of the bishop of Rome for most of its earlier history. None of the other churches of the Reformation could say that.
 
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PaladinValer

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So, Catholics in Henry's time called divorce "annulment". That is still the case.

As someone who is now a Vatican Catholic, you know the difference and it was the same then as it is today.

Please do not come in here telling us what we believe. We'll do that for ourselves.
 
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LewsTherin

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Also, and someone correct me if I'm wrong, the reason Henry was denied annulment by the Roman church was political. If I remember right they wanted some union between England and Spain, otherwise they handed out annulments like candy to royalty.
 
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cam44

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I recently mentioned to my (RC) husband that I was looking into the Anglican Church. His snotty reply? "Why would you want to join a church that was started because someone wanted a divorce?"

Maybe I'm unfamiliar with some part of Anglican history, but, well, it seems like he's got a point. Obviously there are more difference between Roman Catholicism but the history seems pretty clear? Am I missing something? How do you respond to this accusation if you hear it?

PS - I hope I am not violating rules against debating in this forum by posting this. I am honestly interested in Anglicanism and curious about this.
I think your husband was blunt, but in all honesty he hit the nail on the head.
It's interesting that the Anglican church still exists based on its origin ...
 
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Timothy

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You already have good answers, but keep in mind that Henry's problem was the OCCASION for a BREAK with the Papacy. It did not create a new church or even, in Henry's time, change the faith.

This is close to true. It might be more accurate to say that Henry VIII didn't change the faith dramatically, however he was savvy as to which way political winds were blowing and used both Protestant and Catholic causes to allow him to build greater political power. The split under Henry VIII was a political split with Rome, not a substantial theological one, however he was willing to use support various theological agendas. Real Anglicanism doesn't really start until Elizabeth I and Richard Hooker, since before that there are wide swings between ultra-montane Catholicism under Mary and whatever the equivalent of ultra-montanism towards the teaching of Calvin is under Edward!
 
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MKJ

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As someone who is now a Vatican Catholic, you know the difference and it was the same then as it is today.

Please do not come in here telling us what we believe. We'll do that for ourselves.

PV, you really need to stop being so reactionary to people. You make it impossible for people to have a civil discussion in almost every thread.

His point was to the point and not hostile.
 
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MKJ

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I recently mentioned to my (RC) husband that I was looking into the Anglican Church. His snotty reply? "Why would you want to join a church that was started because someone wanted a divorce?"

Maybe I'm unfamiliar with some part of Anglican history, but, well, it seems like he's got a point. Obviously there are more difference between Roman Catholicism but the history seems pretty clear? Am I missing something? How do you respond to this accusation if you hear it?

PS - I hope I am not violating rules against debating in this forum by posting this. I am honestly interested in Anglicanism and curious about this.

This is a common misconception, but it is not really a very good historical reading of what happened.

One of the issues is that your husband is thinking of the Anglican Church or Church of England as if it was some new body or organization. That is not the case, and in fact even Rome did not see it that way at the time - that was never the claim. (that is also largely true with many other Protestant bodies but that is a bit beyond the scope of this discussion.) Rather what happened at that point in history was a schism, much like the schism between the Roman and Eastern Churches.

There had been a Church in England for many years, with their own bishops and hierarchy. The English bishops had always recognized the bishop of Rome as the patriarch of the West, and as such he was seen to have certain legitimate kinds of authority.

In the later middle ages, there were increasing problems throughout the West as far as what kind of authority that really was, both as far as interfering with the local Church on religious issues, but also in the way the Pope was acting as a political leader towards local governments.

In England, the break from the Pope under Henry VIII was preceded by several hundred years of serious problems and difficulties on that account. So to say that it was something just about Henry's marital issues is rather naive - it was something that could be seen building to a head for quite some time, and it involved serious and legitimate problems with the Roman power structure that were not being resolved.

In addition, there were the claims of the Reformers that the whole structure itself was illegitimate and always had been. This idea was largely rejected by Henry and was not, finally, the direction the CofE ultimately went in, but it certainly influenced many people and that idea still has a presence in Anglicanism today, though not in its most extreme forms.

So as you can see, there were several streams of historical circumstances that were coming together.

The particular occasion that brought it all to a head was the issue of Henry's marriage - his desire for a divorce or annulment which as Mark points out is really not ndivide in this instance. Political marriages were in this period very important to the political structures, and despite the idea that divorce was impossible, annulments for reasons of inheritance and political stability were readily available - the system, which was rather different than the modern one, was designed to accommodate those kinds of issues.

Henrys lack of a heir was a serious political problem in England - it was an issue of stability of the government. Although he had daughters, they were not considered candidates for a stable transfer of power - England had not that long ago come out of a period of civil war due to a female claim to the throne not being accepted by the aristocracy which had a lot of power in England. Henrys wife Catherine was beyond childbearing, and so could not provide a male heir - a new marriage was the obvious solution and one that happened regularly in such cases.

It was fully expected that this would be facilitated by Rome. However, the Pope at that time was very much under the political power of Spain, the enemy of England, and Spain choose to use its power to cause Rome to deny Henry's application.

So what you have is not only an instance of Henry being ticked off that he could not marry his girl-friend, as people often present the issue (though he does seem to have been ticked off). You have the enemy state of England using the power of the Papacy in order to act against its rival nation England. This sort of thing could just not be acceptable to any nation, any more than it would be today if the Church was facilitating the interests of one nation over another.

This was ultimately the last straw in the long on-going issues with Romes exercise of power and authority, and the Church in England declared itself to be in schism from the Pope who it said was exercising illegitimate powers.

So what we have now is that same organization that existed before, with bishops and the same sort of hierarchy, but not in communion with Rome. Of course in the years intervening, it has taken a somewhat different theological and organizational path on some issues and it also has (or has had) a particularly English style as well.
 
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seeking.IAM

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If we choose a church based upon history, we might as well pull the covers up under our chin and stay home on Sunday morning. I encourage you to chose a church based upon the here and now. That alone should be hard enough.

Christian history is rife with abuses from Crusades against non-Christians...to Christians beheading fellow Christians who have slightly different beliefs...to pedophilia and cover-ups...to groups demonstrating at funerals because of who God supposedly hates.

We are told "You will know them by their fruits." Matthew 7:16. I invite you to come and see, and judge for yourself! :liturgy:
 
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Crandaddy

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I recently mentioned to my (RC) husband that I was looking into the Anglican Church. His snotty reply? "Why would you want to join a church that was started because someone wanted a divorce?"

Maybe I'm unfamiliar with some part of Anglican history, but, well, it seems like he's got a point. Obviously there are more difference between Roman Catholicism but the history seems pretty clear? Am I missing something? How do you respond to this accusation if you hear it?

I'd place the founding date of the Church of England at or around 673 with the Council of Hertford, and Christianity had been present in England for several centuries before then.

But if the date of the final break with Rome is what you want, then that would be 1570, when Pope Pius V excommunicated Elizabeth, along with any of her subjects who refused to commit treason against her.
 
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Albion

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I'd place the founding date of the Church of England at or around 673 with the Council of Hertford, and Christianity had been present in England for several centuries before then.

But if the date of the final break with Rome is what you want, then that would be 1570, when Pope Pius V excommunicated Elizabeth, along with any of her subjects who refused to commit treason against her.

There's hardly any question but that the Church was established in Britain prior to AD300 and that it was not because of the Church of Rome. However, it is most likely that the church dates from the first or second centuries.
 
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Crandaddy

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There's hardly any question but that the Church was established in Britain prior to AD300 and that it was not because of the Church of Rome. However, it is most likely that the church dates from the first or second centuries.

Quite right. The Council of Hertford is where the English Church was politically unified under the See of Canterbury, but the Church had been present in England since long before.
 
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Crandaddy

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Is any credence given to the story of Joseph of Arimathea, being a merchant, sailing to England and bringing Christianity in the first century?

Mary

It's a cool story, but I've always taken it as merely a pious legend. But someone please correct me if I've missed something.
 
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ebia

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Is any credence given to the story of Joseph of Arimathea, being a merchant, sailing to England and bringing Christianity in the first century?

Mary

Not by many, except the kind of new agers who'll believe any story that includes Glastonbury
 
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