How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

[LJSGM]

Two simple questions:

1. Did God know beforehand that Adam and Eve, if put in the situation and circumstances they were, would sin?

2. Was God sovereign over the situation and circumstances under which they sinned?

Men were created upright, free from sin. They were created with the ability to sin and the ability to not sin. Why they ultimately chose to sin is a mystery the Scriptures do not reveal, but we do know without question that God did not author the evil in their hearts that led them to sin. Nevertheless, it did not take Him by surprise, nor was He unable to prevent it. Rather, He chose according to His own good purposes to ordain those circumstances which He knew would result in their own free choice to sin.

How is this calvinism? Now, I'm confused as to the definition of calvinism? Please explain.

 

[Rick Otto]

Are you sure your done?
Isaiah45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

Ok, I'm not sure what the point is that you are making, but...the true "context" would have been ALL of Romans chapters 9-11, because this is were he's explaining the relationship between the jews and the gentiles in this plan of salvation.

Same difference.
Point is, God hated Esau before Esau had even been born. Why? Because He planned to? Why? Because it served His purpose, which as He pointed out, 11: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Predestination, not "free" will.

God first created evil men, and caused them to do evil, then punished them. How could God judge them when in fact God was the one that caused it?

Exactly.
19: Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

This does not glorify God, it makes him out to be a monster.

Only according to humanistic standards.
14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15: For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Not on who deserves it by doing "this" &/or believing "that"... belief & good works are ordained, not authored by men.

I don't really care how this Owen person twisted the meaning of the word "world."

You really should, because he twisted it back from its apostacized redefinition into its original scriptural perspective. THat is what the word "Reform" means.

I could go on and on, but it's obvious to me what the "world" means.

It is also obvious to us.

Lu 2:1 - Show Context And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.Does this use of "world" include Eskimos, and Aboriginese?
As with this:
17 The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record. 18 For this cause the people also met him, for that they heard that he had done this miracle. 19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.
Does this Had the North & South Americans heard about Lazarus? Had they "gone after Him"?

If He 'so loves the world' (j3:16) in the sense of "every single soul", then wgy doesn't He pray for every single soul?:
Joh 17:9 - Show Context I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

Even if He knew copies of the Bible would eventualy be smuggled into Russia & China, how could this verse apply to those Chinese & Russians that never heard Him, or got their copy?:
Joh 18:20 - Show Context Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing. Is it obvious to you He didn't mean every single soul in at least this use of that word?

How 'bout here:
Ro 1:8 - Show Context First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.Even geographicaly, we cannot regard this to literaly incude the remote regions up the Amazon River.

How does your love the world version of Jn3:16 resonate with this?:
Jo 2:15 - Show Context
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
God loves the world but doesn't want us to?

but you are saying that God's motive is to glorify himself in their punishment (I have heard no other motives).

Not well put. A misleading characterization. Rather His justice is served & thereby His glorified, for what glory to Him if there is no justice?

If God creates evil men, he thus created evil as well, making him the author of evil, thus making him evil.

You judged Him regardless of His motive & sovereignity.
If I slay the enemy who is about to destroy my children, have I done evil? God says we are to love our enemies? What to do?
Use the word knew in any way, and the meaning is still the same. The verse really says that first he foreknew, then he predestined, meaning that from this knowledge, he made the decision to predestine and call the elect. Still not "evidence" for calvinism.

God has to at least leave a few men out of the plan for salvation, just so he can glorify himself in their torture, right?

Consider the alternative you offer: If God doesn't bring every last soul into heaven, He has "allowed" a few of His own precious creatures to perish simply because the fallen, imperfect creatures were unable to muster up the will to believe, but that's ok because the stubborn idiots were "free".
Would you allow your stubborn ignorant child to kill himself if you able to prevent it, simply out of regard for his "freedom"?
Then why would He bother to fetch a lost sheep if it freely chose to stray?

it would no longer be "free" will if he forced us.

True, that's why we call it "Irresistable Grace".
The example is His hardening Pharoah's stony heart.
Here's the best example, where He planned His Son's death, but the men who did it are judged as wicked:
Ac 2:23 - Show Context Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:

 

[StudentoftheWord]

Ah, but you're not God.
Or maybe that is justice, and you just don't like it. Who said you have to like everything that's good?

Ah but YOU'RE not God either. So your reasoning is based on clouded thinking.

Psalm 145:18-20 (New International Version)
18 The LORD is near to all who call on him,
to all who call on him in truth.
19 He fulfills the desires of those who fear him;
he hears their cry and saves them.
20 The LORD watches over all who love him,
but all the wicked he will destroy.

Matthew 12:41 (New International Version)
"The men of Nineveh will stand up with this generation at the judgment, and will condemn it because they repented at the preaching of Jonah; and behold, something greater than Jonah is here.

An who call upon Him will be saved. Calvinism misrepresents Romans 9, to say what it does not say.

 

[cygnusx1]

I don't really care how this Owen person twisted the meaning of the word "world." The world means still means all men.

that is typical , can you not learn from Christian teachers in history ?

you say "world" means all men ............ prove it!

do you think the whole world went out to see Jesus ?

do you think Jesus refused to pray for Christians ?

 

[Markea]

Point is, God hated Esau before Esau had even been born.

This is not stated in scripture.

Scripture states...

As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.

It does not say that God hated Esau before Esau had even been born... in fact, it says.. As it is written.. and it is written in Malachi.. which was written hundreds of years AFTER Esau lived his life.

There's zero scriptural support for claiming that God hated Esau before Esau was even born.

 

[LJSGM]

that is typical , can you not learn from Christian teachers in history ?

you say "world" means all men ............ prove it!

do you think the whole world went out to see Jesus ?

do you think Jesus refused to pray for Christians ?

The meaning is the same, using the word "world" meant "everyone" and was all inclusive. Please show me an example of the word "world" being exclusive. This is elementary.

 

[cygnusx1]

The meaning is the same, using the word "world" meant "everyone" and was all inclusive. Please show me an example of the word "world" being exclusive. This is elementary.

it sure is elementary !

In John 17:9, Jesus says, I pray for those who can hear and see: I pray not for this world and the people herein, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine, O Father. For they are in this world of soul and need our help.


so Jesus prays not for this world but only for those whom the Father shall give him ......... your concept of "world" is proven false ..... and there are loads more proofs .

 

[cygnusx1]

The Pharisees lament that "the whole world" has gone after Jesus. John 12:12-19

The "whole world" has gone after Jesus .......... has it really!

 

[cygnusx1]

[FONT=Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif]John 15:18[/FONT]​

"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you." Believers do not "hate" Christ, so that "the world" here must signify the world of unbelievers in contrast from believers who love Christ.


A W P

 

[LJSGM]

Are you sure your done?
Isaiah45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

the word that you've translated to say evil, can actually mean "calamity" or disaster and in the context were God is speaking in opposites, the most logical conclusion is that he is speaking about calamity, since it is more of the opposite of peace. It's no wonder that the NIV translators translated it as such:

7 I form the light and create darkness,
I bring prosperity and create disaster;
I, the LORD, do all these things.

Is this the only verse you've got to show that God is evil? This is blamphemous I hope you know.

Same difference.
Point is, God hated Esau before Esau had even been born. Why? Because He planned to? Why? Because it served His purpose, which as He pointed out, 11: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Predestination, not "free" will.

Hebrews 12

16See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.


Why did God hate Esau, perhaps because he was "godless"?

How can you hate something even before it's created? How can you hate something that you've created, even before you created it?

Like I said before, this verse is speaking about how Jacob recieved the inheritance even though by birth, he was the not the first born. The purpose of election stands in that people are chosen not because of "natural" birth (Jews), but by faith.

Election is by being called, for the bible tells us that Jesus calls ALL men.

John 12
32But I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to myself."

"God raised up Moses to display his mercy, and Pharaoh to display divine severity in punishing those who obstinately oppose their Creator."

Those that obstinately oppose their creator will not be saved, but condemned. Like I said before, it is a choice.

Exactly.
19: Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Only according to humanistic standards.
14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15: For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Not on who deserves it by doing "this" &/or believing "that"... belief & good works are ordained, not authored by men.

Like I mentioned before, it's not the faith by it's self that saves men, as if they saved themselves, but by God's mercy, and God's mercy dicates that he will save/have mercy for those believe in him. God's mercy is still the one that saves us.

You really should, because he twisted it back from its apostacized redefinition into its original scriptural perspective. THat is what the word "Reform" means.

It is also obvious to us.

Lu 2:1 - Show Context And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.Does this use of "world" include Eskimos, and Aboriginese?
As with this:

Caesar says "the world" therefore we need to know what he means by it, not what God means by it, because God didn't say it. Even so, Caesar's meaning is All inclusive.

17 The people therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of his grave, and raised him from the dead, bare record. 18 For this cause the people also met him, for that they heard that he had done this miracle. 19 The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Perceive ye how ye prevail nothing? behold, the world is gone after him.
Does this Had the North & South Americans heard about Lazarus? Had they "gone after Him"?

This again is what the Pharisees have said, not God, and it depends on what they mean by it. Again, it is an all inclusive term.

If He 'so loves the world' (j3:16) in the sense of "every single soul", then wgy doesn't He pray for every single soul?:
Joh 17:9 - Show Context I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine.

one word: foreknowledge

Even if He knew copies of the Bible would eventualy be smuggled into Russia & China, how could this verse apply to those Chinese & Russians that never heard Him, or got their copy?:
Joh 18:20 - Show Context Jesus answered him, I spake openly to the world; I ever taught in the synagogue, and in the temple, whither the Jews always resort; and in secret have I said nothing. Is it obvious to you He didn't mean every single soul in at least this use of that word?

This is getting tiring. Again, he is being all inclusive, saying that wasn't just speaking to the a select few (exclusive) but everyone that was around.

How 'bout here:
Ro 1:8 - Show Context First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken of throughout the whole world.Even geographicaly, we cannot regard this to literaly incude the remote regions up the Amazon River.

How does your love the world version of Jn3:16 resonate with this?:
Jo 2:15 - Show Context
Love not the world, neither the things that are in the world. If any man love the world, the love of the Father is not in him.
God loves the world but doesn't want us to?

Everyone knows this is speaking of principalities, not men

Not well put. A misleading characterization. Rather His justice is served & thereby His glorified, for what glory to Him if there is no justice?

you're accusing me of Misleading characterization! What, because I don't believe God is silly enough to make men only to punish them for a show of glory! Because I refuse to believe that God is the author of evil!

You judged Him regardless of His motive & sovereignity.
If I slay the enemy who is about to destroy my children, have I done evil? God says we are to love our enemies? What to do?

I don't judge God, but I know that he is good, and that means that everything that he does is good, including his motives, so I reject your unprovable theory that God's motives are evil.

Do I trust God to protect me, who is the author of my destiny and cares for me completely, or do I take matters into my own hands and rely on my own understanding and murder someone? hmmm... I guess it's a matter faith. You either believe that God is your protector, or that he's useless and therefore you have to be.

Consider the alternative you offer: If God doesn't bring every last soul into heaven, He has "allowed" a few of His own precious creatures to perish simply because the fallen, imperfect creatures were unable to muster up the will to believe, but that's ok because the stubborn idiots were "free".
Would you allow your stubborn ignorant child to kill himself if you able to prevent it, simply out of regard for his "freedom"?
Then why would He bother to fetch a lost sheep if it freely chose to stray?

so, your theory that God leaves out a few men from his calling so that he can torture them for a while, just for fun, oh and for his glory, this is better? OK Whatever.

Have you ever been the parent of a child that fell to their ruin even though you tired to prevent it (did everything you could, besides forced them)? I've seen many parents in this situation.

 

[Rightglory]

Cygnus,

that is typical , can you not learn from Christian teachers in history ?

Yes, I have and you are not one of them.

it sure is elementary !
In John 17:9, Jesus says, I pray for those who can hear and see: I pray not for this world and the people herein, but for them which thou hast given me; for they are thine, O Father. For they are in this world of soul and need our help.

How come it is so elementary you cannot understand it. Vs 9 is referencing the disciples. You know, He lost none, but the son of perdition to fulfil prophecy.

so Jesus prays not for this world but only for those whom the Father shall give him ......... your concept of "world" is proven false ..... and there are loads more proofs .

yes such as the next verses of this chapter.
Lets look at vs 20-23, here Jesus is praying for the Church.(Those that will believe)
Ah, but verse 24-26 Jesus is praying for the world.
Now, you have Jesus praying for everyone without exception. He moves from Himself in vs 1-5, then to the group, the disciples, then the future Church, all those that will believe, then for the world.
False by only your interpretation. Not by the historical witness of Christianity since the Apostles. You will never change the meaning that scripture gives to those words, ALL and World, when it is speaking of the context of Christ saving mankind from the fall, justifying all things in Himself, granting justification of life to all men.

 

[cygnusx1]

Cygnus,


Yes, I have and you are not one of them.

s'funny , i said Christian teachers in history !

but ya just gotta have your dig....

How come it is so elementary you cannot understand it.

dig number 2

Vs 9 is referencing the disciples. You know, He lost none, but the son of perdition to fulfil prophecy.
yes such as the next verses of this chapter.
Lets look at vs 20-23, here Jesus is praying for the Church.(Those that will believe)
Ah, but verse 24-26 Jesus is praying for the world.
Now, you have Jesus praying for everyone without exception. He moves from Himself in vs 1-5, then to the group, the disciples, then the future Church, all those that will believe, then for the world.

it is Christs high priestly prayer , world doesn't mean all men ... because he prays only for the elect , the only part the world has at the end of this three part discourse is NOT PRAYER BUT only AS A TESTIMONY

John 17:23 Parallel Translations

NASB: I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me.

(NASB ©1995)GWT: I am in them, and you are in me. So they are completely united. In this way the world knows that you have sent me and that you have loved them in the same way you have loved me.

[SIZE=-2](GOD'S WORD®)[/SIZE]KJV: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

ASV: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that thou didst send me, and lovedst them, even as thou lovedst me.

BBE: I in them, and you in me, so that they may be made completely one, and so that it may become clear to all men that you have sent me and that they are loved by you as I am loved by you.

DBY: I in them and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and that thou hast loved them as thou hast loved me.

ERV: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that thou didst send me, and lovedst them, even as thou lovedst me.

WEY: I in them and Thou in me; that they may stand perfected in one; that the world may come to understand that Thou didst send me and hast loved them with the same love as that with which Thou hast loved me.

WBS: I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them as thou hast loved me.

WEB: I in them, and you in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that you sent me, and loved them, even as you loved me.

YLT: I in them, and Thou in me, that they may be perfected into one, and that the world may know that Thou didst send me, and didst love them as Thou didst love me.


compare ;


Exodus 7:5, where God says, "And the Egyptians shall know that I am the LORD, when I stretch forth my hand upon Egypt and bring out the people of Israel from among them"?

False by only your interpretation. Not by the historical witness of Christianity since the Apostles. You will never change the meaning that scripture gives to those words, ALL and World, when it is speaking of the context of Christ saving mankind from the fall, justifying all things in Himself, granting justification of life to all men.

dig number 3 , and clearly shown to be utterly false !

saving mankind from the fall is your dogma , scripture speaks of salvation from sin , law and death . Rom 6,7.8

those whom he foreknew he also


Romans 8

27 And the one who searches hearts knows what is the intention of the Spirit, because it intercedes for the holy ones according to God's will. 28 5 We know that all things work for good for those who love God, 6 who are called according to his purpose. 29 7 For those he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, so that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 And those he predestined he also called; and those he called he also justified; and those he justified he also glorified. 31 8 What then shall we say to this? If God is for us, who can be against us? 32 He who did not spare his own Son but handed him over for us all, how will he not also give us everything else along with him? 33 Who will bring a charge against God's chosen ones? It is God who acquits us. 34 Who will condemn? It is Christ (Jesus) who died, rather, was raised, who also is at the right hand of God, who indeed intercedes for us.


..... rules out universal justification and universal prayer .... sorry dude.

 

[heymikey80]

Lets look at vs 20-23, here Jesus is praying for the Church.(Those that will believe)

on which you're agreed, I assume ...

Ah, but verse 24-26 Jesus is praying for the world.
Now, you have Jesus praying for everyone without exception. He moves from Himself in vs 1-5, then to the group, the disciples, then the future Church, all those that will believe, then for the world.
False by only your interpretation. Not by the historical witness of Christianity since the Apostles. You will never change the meaning that scripture gives to those words, ALL and World, when it is speaking of the context of Christ saving mankind from the fall, justifying all things in Himself, granting justification of life to all men.

Compare

"I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours." John 17:9

"Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am" John 17:24

Not 30 seconds before, Jesus said the people He's praying for in :24 were not the world.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled obfuscation of Jesus' clarity.

 

[Rightglory]

Heymikey80,

"I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours." John 17:9
"Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am" John 17:24
Not 30 seconds before, Jesus said the people He's praying for in :24 were not the world.
We now return you to your regularly scheduled obfuscation of Jesus' clarity.

Yes, obviously you do not read well either. I explained that to Cygnus and you missed it.
There are four parts to that prayer, See the previous post. There is not a soul in all the world that He does not pray for. We are also commanded to pray for all men, specifically for our enemies.
Speaking of obfuscation............

 

[drstevej]

Chris Bot is a Calvinist.

 

[LJSGM]

Chris Bot is a Calvinist.

 

[heymikey80]

Compare

"I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours." John 17:9

"Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am" John 17:24

Not 30 seconds before, Jesus said the people He's praying for in :24 were not the world.

We now return you to your regularly scheduled obfuscation of Jesus' clarity.

Yes, obviously you do not read well either. I explained that to Cygnus and you missed it.
There are four parts to that prayer, See the previous post. There is not a soul in all the world that He does not pray for. We are also commanded to pray for all men, specifically for our enemies.
Speaking of obfuscation............

Ah. I just assumed you hadn't considered merging the two together. I hadn't considered that you were openly defying the statements Jesus was making, along exactly the lines I was requesting you take notice of. Apparently you won't respond to the specific point, that Jesus is distinguishing the world from those God gave Him.

And frankly: you made an assertion, not an explanation. An assertion makes a claim. An explanation defends it with support.

I appreciate that you want to believe that Jesus prays for everyone. But that's pretty-much begging the question. And when he's saying he's not praying for the world but for those God has given ... that's two groups. The world. And those given Him.

John 17:24 asserts "those you've given me", which a scant paragraph before Jesus has already stated, they're "not the world."

 

[Rightglory]

heymikey80,

I appreciate that you want to believe that Jesus prays for everyone. But that's pretty-much begging the question. And when he's saying he's not praying for the world but for those God has given ... that's two groups. The world. And those given Him.

all were given Him, Everything has been given to Him. all things in heaven and earth, that does not exclude anyone. He saved all form the fall, from death and sin, and now calls all men to repentance. The Holy Spirit is actively working to convict all men of their sin.

Verses 24-26 He is praying for all the others He has not so far prayed for, Himself, His disciples, the Church and all the rest.(the World). The Bible is clear and is always aligned if we do not try to put other suppositions above it.

 

[Rick Otto]

"As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated."
It does not say that God hated Esau before Esau had even been born... in fact, it says.. As it is written.. and it is written in Malachi.. which was written hundreds of years AFTER Esau lived his life.

I hadn't heard that twist 'till now.
Usualy the attack on that verse takes the form of "he meant Esau as a people, not as an udividual" which doesn't eliminate predestinate, rather it disseminates it.

Here's the problem with the way you read it:
You've neglated the defining context by ignoring the prededing verses...
10: And not only this; but when Rebecca also had conceived by one, even by our father Isaac;
11: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
12: It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
13: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
14: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
15: For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.

 

[Rick Otto]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rick Otto
Are you sure your done?
Isa 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

the word that you've translated to say evil, can actually mean "calamity" or disaster and in the context were God is speaking in opposites, the most logical conclusion is that he is speaking about calamity, since it is more of the opposite of peace.

Actualy, the opposite of peace is war, but even calamity & disaster are "evils", tho it seem to you removed from God's personal liability on account of His using nature or others to perform it.

Is this the only verse you've got to show that God is evil? This is blamphemous I hope you know.

Before you accuse me of blasphemy(if it isn't already too late), Can you show me exactly where I used that or any other verse to accuse God of being evil?
Do you seriously believe God's having Joseph suffer the calamatous disaster (but not evil?) of being sold into slavery by his brothers, defines Him as evil?
Or His allowing Satan to enter The Garden?
Or His drowning an entire planet's population except for 8 souls?
Or having Joshua slaughter men women & children at Jericho?
Is that the only excuse you can offer to deny this & other scripture?
Do you still insist on judging God?
Do you only judge an action & completely dismiss or ignore motives to establish character?

Quote:
Same difference.
Point is, God hated Esau before Esau had even been born. Why? Because He planned to? Why? Because it served His purpose, which as He pointed out, 11: (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth
Predestination, not "free" will.

Hebrews 12

16See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.
Why did God hate Esau, perhaps because he was "godless"?[/QUOTE]
So it's OK with you that God hated Esau? That doesn't render Him evil?

How can you hate something even before it's created?

Determinate counsel (predetination) results in foreknowlege of what is going to be created.
It was part of the plan... like the murder of His Son.

How can you hate something that you've created, even before you created it?

Easy. If you intend to create a hateful thing (for Godly good reason), it is no big leap to imagine hating it before making it.

The purpose of election stands in that people are chosen not because of "natural" birth (Jews), but by faith.

Rather(more broadly) people are chosen by Him, not on the basis of what they are or do.

Gotta run...