How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

[LJSGM]

I use to reject Calvinism too. Now I treasure a God who is not bound by the will of man.

If God is not "bound" by the will of man, so that they decide their own "fate," then you must be a universalist? Because we know that God's will is that ALL men be saved.

 

[LJSGM]

I would think it's a much wider question, as Paul's description is extremely wide, covering myriad examples of choosing -- can God still attribute blame on people if God is doing the hardening? This is similar to the very wide hypothetical question Paul asks in the start of Romans 3.

You could make this case, IF all of the Jew's hearts were hardened, which they were not. Only the Jews who continued in unbelief, had their hearts hardened. The rest who believed that Christ was the messiah were saved and his elect. Pharaoh was an example of this hardening. Was it because of this hardening that Pharaoh was wicked? NO, it was because of his unbelief in the God of the hebrews. The hardening occured after he rejected God. God then used him as an object of his wrath. What was this hardening? He would not let God's people go, no matter what sign and wonders and warnings that God gave him.

I'd invite you to take a look at Romans 11:28-29.

As regards the gospel, they are enemies of God for your sake. But as regards election, they are beloved for the sake of their forefathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.​

It's not easy to navigate this verse from any view, but it's definitely saying some of the hardening in Israel occurred for the sake of bringing in Gentiles, but regarding election they're beloved.


And in fact, y'hafta put the entirety of Romans 11:11ff in that context, because Paul explicitly states that this hardening is not to the point of falling:

So I ask, did they stumble in order that they might fall? By no means! Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous.​

I'll have to requote that Romans 11:11, because I don't know what version you used.​

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

​

The meaning's a little different, isn't it? He's saying that they can recover from it if they so chose to believe. But they continue in their unbelief.​

Romans 11:20 But they were broken off because of unbelief

So here the issue isn't gaining or losing your salvation -- it's gaining or losing what they were seeking -- righteousness -- and that required God's mercy to receive. To flout those things that are also required -- faith, for instance -- would defy God's mercy a different way and cut you off at a tighter core. But of course it definitely does require continuance in faith -- perseverance in faith -- for those who have yet received God's mercy. Losing that faith definitely does cut you off from God's mercy.

righteousness has everything to do with salvation, and gaining/losing it. Gaining a "righteousness from God" aka the Holy Spirit, makes you born again, and everyone knows that in order to enter the Kingdom of God (or to be saved) you must be born again. It is through faith/belief in Jesus, and by repentance, that you recieve the Holy Spirit/righteousness from God, which gives you a new heart and desire to do right, or to be righteous which is not possible through our own self strivings because we have by nature a wicked heart.

The book of Revelations points out that we will be judged by what we have done. It's hard to go through the whole gospel in a few paragraphs though.

I've few qualms about saying that people who are in church and who have fervor and strong emotions and deep convictions even, may yet drop out of their faith. We stand on the same grounds of faith, grace, and God's choosing that the Jewish people do. It works the same. Our hardness of heart can occur at different levels, and that hardness can thwart our attaining God's righteousness. God's mercy is thus required to soften our hearts, and not harden our hearts.

Once again, God only hardens sometimes those who reject him, or do not believe.

On which we'd agree. However, we disagree on what that very good basis is.

What is this good basis that you believe in then?

 

[heymikey80]

You could make this case, IF all of the Jew's hearts were hardened, which they were not.

I don't see the necessity. I can make the case flatly. "Why does God still find fault?" Paul doesn't make the case, "Why does God still find fault with the Jews?"

Paul's examples of hardening include Gentiles. So ... it makes no sense to think this argument is being limited to Jewish people in the first place.

But it's even worse than that. Paul's answer obliterates any thought that Paul is retracting back to, "Oh, He's only hardening those who didn't have faith." No, God intentionally formed them and hardened them. It's what the passage says. It's what Paul is arguing. It's just not what you're arguing.

Only the Jews who continued in unbelief, had their hearts hardened. The rest who believed that Christ was the messiah were saved and his elect. Pharaoh was an example of this hardening. Was it because of this hardening that Pharaoh was wicked? NO, it was because of his unbelief in the God of the hebrews. The hardening occured after he rejected God. God then used him as an object of his wrath. What was this hardening? He would not let God's people go, no matter what sign and wonders and warnings that God gave him.

Just a simple look at the Esau & Jacob example shows this isn't what Paul is getting at. "Before they were born or had done anything ..."

I'll have to requote that Romans 11:11, because I don't know what version you used.

11Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their fullness bring!

​

The meaning's a little different, isn't it? He's saying that they can recover from it if they so chose to believe. But they continue in their unbelief.

I used the ESV, but you can find the same phraseology in the New American Standard. Each is a word-meaning translation. Or a USB or Nestle/Aland. The translation you're using is injecting "beyond recovery", it's not in the Greek.

"Did they stumble so as to fall?" That's what Paul wrote. I'm sticking with what he wrote.

Romans 11:20 But they were broken off because of unbelief

Unbelieving, yet elect for the sake of their fathers. Those are interesting cross purposes at this point.

righteousness has everything to do with salvation, and gaining/losing it.

mmm. So in your view Spirit == righteousness == salvation == promise. If you make everything the same, then nothing will come out any differently.

Gaining a "righteousness from God" aka the Holy Spirit, makes you born again,

Yes, well, new birth by the Holy Spirit generates faith in God, which gains a declaration that you're righteous before God.

It is through faith/belief in Jesus, and by repentance, that you recieve the Holy Spirit/righteousness from God, which gives you a new heart and desire to do right, or to be righteous which is not possible through our own self strivings because we have by nature a wicked heart.

No. For were your last phrase true, then no one would believe in Jesus. It doesn't work in this order simply because no one can have a faith that saves without the Spirit of God.

The book of Revelations points out that we will be judged by what we have done. It's hard to go through the whole gospel in a few paragraphs though.

Actually Paul did it in a matter of a sentence or two. 1 Cor 15. But then for him the words weren't all fused together. He had particular ideas in mind, it wasn't one blob of gospelrighteoussalvationspiritpromisefaith.

Once again, God only hardens sometimes those who reject him, or do not believe.

So I take it people just harden their own hearts, and will themselves into hardness?

But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. Rom 2:5
​

What is this good basis that you believe in then?

God's will. I rely on Him, being a Christian.

 

[nobdysfool]

If God is not "bound" by the will of man, so that they decide their own "fate," then you must be a universalist? Because we know that God's will is that ALL men be saved.

Are you referring to 2 Peter 3:9? You need to read that verse in context, rather than lifting it out of its context. Peter is speaking to the elect, of the elect which are yet to believe.

 

[LJSGM]

I don't see the necessity. I can make the case flatly. "Why does God still find fault?" Paul doesn't make the case, "Why does God still find fault with the Jews?"

I'm not sure what you're saying here? Why does God find fault if they reject God's one and only son? These are the Jews that rejected Jesus that we're refering to. The rest believed and were saved.

Paul's examples of hardening include Gentiles. So ... it makes no sense to think this argument is being limited to Jewish people in the first place.

No, it's not limited to Jewish people, but it is limited to unbelievers, which both Jew and gentile are included. Have you an example of God hardening a believer? I'd like to see it.

But it's even worse than that. Paul's answer obliterates any thought that Paul is retracting back to, "Oh, He's only hardening those who didn't have faith." No, God intentionally formed them and hardened them. It's what the passage says. It's what Paul is arguing. It's just not what you're arguing.

I'm not sure how you came to this conclusion. Verses may help.

Just a simple look at the Esau & Jacob example shows this isn't what Paul is getting at. "Before they were born or had done anything ..."

This just shows God's foreknowledge of who he would love, Which I know that God is all knowing. This is your predestination... God foreknew.

I used the ESV, but you can find the same phraseology in the New American Standard. Each is a word-meaning translation. Or a USB or Nestle/Aland. The translation you're using is injecting "beyond recovery", it's not in the Greek.

"Did they stumble so as to fall?" That's what Paul wrote. I'm sticking with what he wrote.

Well, it means sorta the same thing, if they would just only believe they would recover their inhertiance.

Unbelieving, yet elect for the sake of their fathers. Those are interesting cross purposes at this point.

Yes, it is hard to cross over from a physical kingdom to a now spiritual one and understand everything pretaining to the promises made to the physical nation of God.

mmm. So in your view Spirit == righteousness == salvation == promise. If you make everything the same, then nothing will come out any differently.

not sure what you're saying here.

Yes, well, new birth by the Holy Spirit generates faith in God, which gains a declaration that you're righteous before God

No. For were your last phrase true, then no one would believe in Jesus. It doesn't work in this order simply because no one can have a faith that saves without the Spirit of God.

ok... first off, lets put to light these verses that you are refering to that say this, then we can discuss it.

Actually Paul did it in a matter of a sentence or two. 1 Cor 15. But then for him the words weren't all fused together. He had particular ideas in mind, it wasn't one blob of gospelrighteoussalvationspiritpromisefaith.

Are you calling the plan of salvation a blob?

So I take it people just harden their own hearts, and will themselves into hardness?

But because of your hard and impenitent heart you are storing up wrath for yourself on the day of wrath when God’s righteous judgment will be revealed. Rom 2:5​

Yes, in most cases, men's hearts are hard because of their own will, only a few cases does God "harden" a heart of an unbeliever to bring about a greater purpose. Perhaps this person, he foreknew he would reject him, so he uses him as an object of wrath.

God's will. I rely on Him, being a Christian.

You then are a universalist? Because God has already revealed to us that his will is that All men be saved. Otherwise you believe he just picks a few people at random to enter the kingdom. This is non-sense.

I think the biggest problem people seem to have is that they think that faith is a work. The bible makes it clear that it definitely is not because they are in contrast. Faith/belief is a choice, that anyone can make, the choice is reject him or believe HIm, this includes repentance. This is the only way that we can recieve his mercy, is if we ask for mercy, it is the only way that God can use us, is if we repent which comes through true belief. Then if we die to ourselves, we can recieve His new life. This is His plan of salvation.

 

[LJSGM]

Are you referring to 2 Peter 3:9? You need to read that verse in context, rather than lifting it out of its context. Peter is speaking to the elect, of the elect which are yet to believe.

Please tell me then, why doesn't God want all men to be saved if this is what you believe?

 

[cygnusx1]

Please tell me then, why doesn't God want all men to be saved if this is what you believe?

why ?

to declare God's rightousness .



Romans 3

1 - What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision?
2 - Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 - For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 - God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
5 - But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? [Is] God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6 - God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7 - For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

 

[Rick Otto]

Just like He didn't "want" His Son to die.
So it realy doesn't matter if you try to isolate who is being talked about because all you need is one example to show He didn't intend what He would've preferred.

He wants "all men", in the sense of "all kinds" as opposed to the then-established notion that "salvation is of the Jews" only.

You have to get over years of humanistic brain-washing to realize that not every human life is precious in God's eyes to understand first that all creation is to glorify Him (not an ego trip - He deserves it), and all things work for the good , of those who love Him, not to those who don't.

If He had planned to have mercy on everyone, His justice would never be eternaly witnessed.

 

[LJSGM]

why ?

to declare God's rightousness .



Romans 3

1 - What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit [is there] of circumcision?
2 - Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.
3 - For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?
4 - God forbid: yea, let God be true, but every man a liar; as it is written, That thou mightest be justified in thy sayings, and mightest overcome when thou art judged.
5 - But if our unrighteousness commend the righteousness of God, what shall we say? [Is] God unrighteous who taketh vengeance? (I speak as a man)
6 - God forbid: for then how shall God judge the world?
7 - For if the truth of God hath more abounded through my lie unto his glory; why yet am I also judged as a sinner?

This is strange because this verse contradicts what you just said.

Paul says that "should we sin to make God's righteousness stand out?" he says NO. So, in saying that this is the purpose that God created us, that through our sin, his righteousness is more well know/greater is not the right conclusion.

 

[LJSGM]

Just like He didn't "want" His Son to die.
So it realy doesn't matter if you try to isolate who is being talked about because all you need is one example to show He didn't intend what He would've preferred.

He wants "all men", in the sense of "all kinds" as opposed to the then-established notion that "salvation is of the Jews" only.

You have to get over years of humanistic brain-washing to realize that not every human life is precious in God's eyes to understand first that all creation is to glorify Him (not an ego trip - He deserves it), and all things work for the good , of those who love Him, not to those who don't.

If He had planned to have mercy on everyone, His justice would never be eternaly witnessed.

Life is precious to God, period.

It's delusional to think that he came to the earth, suffering the most horrible death possible in order to put on a good "show." Is that all life is? Some big game? Perhaps because God is bored or something?

 

[cygnusx1]

This is strange because this verse contradicts what you just said.

Paul says that "should we sin to make God's righteousness stand out?" he says NO. So, in saying that this is the purpose that God created us, that through our sin, his righteousness is more well know/greater is not the right conclusion.

I don't agree .

human responsibility does not counter God Sovereignty , sin does have a use , it provides a background for displays God's Grace mercy and JUSTICE ......... I will ask you why did God permit sin ?

the fact that God uses sin to display His grace Mercy and Justice no more qualifies for sinners sinning to aid God (God forbid) than that Divine prophecy should be aided by human misguided lunacy.

God does have a purpose for sin .


Romans 9

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

 

[LJSGM]

I don't agree .

human responsibility does not counter God Sovereignty , sin does have a use , it provides a background for displays God's Grace mercy and JUSTICE ......... I will ask you why did God permit sin ?

the fact that God uses sin to display His grace Mercy and Justice no more qualifies for sinners sinning to aid God (God forbid) than that Divine prophecy should be aided by human misguided lunacy.

God does have a purpose for sin .


Romans 9

21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,

24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?

Just because God can use all things for good, does not mean that he created or allowed sin for this reason. The meaning of life is not because God wanted us to sin and then show his glory.

The answer as to why God allowed us to sin is simple. Because he gave us free will. Free will is actually quite a glorious thing to create. Anyone can create a robot, but to create something that is his own person, and has his own will...wow, God really is almighty.

 

[drstevej]

Please tell me then, why doesn't God want all men to be saved if this is what you believe?

#666

Predestined for a non-Calvinist.

Is God glorified by the punishment of the wicked? YES or NO ???

 

[LJSGM]

#666

Predestined for a non-Calvinist.

Is God glorified by the punishment of the wicked? YES or NO ???

Yes, but it doesn't mean that this was the purpose of making men! This is a faulty line of reasoning.

 

[drstevej]

Yes, but it doesn't mean that this was the purpose of making men! This is a faulty line of reasoning.

Yes.

Would you say it could be a reason for making some?
Orr does His justice and holiness take a back seat to other attributes?

 

[nobdysfool]

Yes, but it doesn't mean that this was the purpose of making men! This is a faulty line of reasoning.

What I think is a faulty line of reasoning is to think that God created man for one purpose, and because man was stupid, God has to go through all of this other stuff to finally get things back to the way He wanted them to begin with.

It's awfully hard for you to avoid the logical conclusion of the theology of non-Calvinists, that God was forced to go to "Plan B" because Adam sinned. I don't find that anywhere in any version of the Bible that I've read.

If this isn't "Plan B", what evidence do you have that this wasn't therefore planned to be exactly the way it is?

 

[Ben johnson]

so you testify that Calvinists speak with one voice !

Not really; there is non-agreement between Calvinistic members here on many points.

Fru has continually and majestically overturned every fallacious refutation of yours ben , that is why you will no longer debate with him!!!

If you wish to think that, it's OK with me.

..but my view, is that I've refuted, point by point, every position of "Reformed Theology". Many of the verses I've cited go un-answered. And I'm often charged with "burying the discussion under many verses".

In the end, if we don't come to agreement, I hope both of us emerge stronger in our walk with Christ.

Of course, when Jesus returns, we WILL be in "perfect agreement" --- though at this time you and I will disagree on what that means...




MyCF Link: cygnusx1.christianforums.com (4711 views)
[/quote]

 

[Ben johnson]

Romans 9

18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

who is it that Paul is talking about God hardening their hearts?

Romans 11

25I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in. 26And so all Israel will be saved, as it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g]

And there is verse 32, "God ...has mercy on ALL".

Nowhere in all of Scripture does God "decide the eternal destiny of anyone".

 

[LJSGM]

Yes.

Would you say it could be a reason for making some?
Orr does His justice and holiness take a back seat to other attributes?

so what you are saying is that God made men in order to put on a great show.

Actually, most of the old testament shows how israel was like a "unfaithful lover." God did in a sense show his power and majesty in order to "whew" us. What else is the earth and his creation founded on but love?? Why is love the greatest thing?

1 Corinthians 13

Love

1If I speak in the tongues[a] of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. 2If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. 3If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames,[b] but have not love, I gain nothing.

4Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. 5It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. 6Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. 7It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.
8Love never fails. But where there are prophecies, they will cease; where there are tongues, they will be stilled; where there is knowledge, it will pass away. 9For we know in part and we prophesy in part, 10but when perfection comes, the imperfect disappears. 11When I was a child, I talked like a child, I thought like a child, I reasoned like a child. When I became a man, I put childish ways behind me. 12Now we see but a poor reflection as in a mirror; then we shall see face to face. Now I know in part; then I shall know fully, even as I am fully known. 13And now these three remain: faith, hope and love. But the greatest of these is love.

Mark 12

8One of the teachers of the law came and heard them debating. Noticing that Jesus had given them a good answer, he asked him, "Of all the commandments, which is the most important?"

29"The most important one," answered Jesus, "is this: 'Hear, O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is one.[e] 30Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.'[f] 31The second is this: 'Love your neighbor as yourself.'[g]There is no commandment greater than these."
32"Well said, teacher," the man replied. "You are right in saying that God is one and there is no other but him. 33To love him with all your heart, with all your understanding and with all your strength, and to love your neighbor as yourself is more important than all burnt offerings and sacrifices." 34When Jesus saw that he had answered wisely, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." And from then on no one dared ask him any more questions.

Why then did God create men for eternity? Or are you stuck on the earth in the present?

 

[Ben johnson]

Are you referring to 2 Peter 3:9? You need to read that verse in context, rather than lifting it out of its context. Peter is speaking to the elect, of the elect which are yet to believe.

I'll never understand how this can be perceived to mean:

"God does not decree-to-perish, all whom He has decreed-to-salvation; but He patiently waits for all to come to repentance whom He has DECREED to repent."

That doesn't make sense to me. Why would Peter write it?