How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

[Easystreet]

if salvation is because of faith and sin is due to a lack of faith , then it follows if and when ben sins he loses his salvation !!

Jacob is that your October outfit for Holloween? Fitting

 

[frumanchu]

If Ben sins, and then sins again and again (which is "unrepentance"), then yes he has forsaken Christ.

If Ben sins (all Christians do), but is promptly convicted and throws himself remorsefully on Christ's mercy and asks forgiveness, and asks strength in resisting sin, he has not forsaken Christ OR salvation.

Clear now?

Did Ben throw himself remorsefully on Christ's mercy and ask forgiveness for that little white lie he told last Thursday? Or that subtely malicious thought he had two weeks ago? Or the sin he committed half an hour ago that he didn't even really recognize as such because he is still accustomed to it?

Does Ben never commit the same sin twice, or under his above definition is Ben persistently unrepentant as he continues to struggle with the same sins he has struggled with for years? Does Ben oscillate in and out of Christ on a daily basis? Is he saved in the early morning when he prays and in the evening when he prays again...but lost during the day as his sins accumulate? Or does Ben really stop everything he's doing and pray earnestly after each and every sin he commits (assuming he immediately knows them to be such)?

What you'll find is that Ben's soteriology is very much akin to the Roman Catholic doctrine of the sacrament of penance, wherein with each sin a person falls out of a state of justification until such time as they perform the work of repentance and restore themselves to a state of justification.

Heaven help the person who forgets to repent of a sin, let alone he who struggles continually with the same sin. Such was what tortured Luther until at last he realized salvation was found in the grace of God through faith alone, not through vain and maddening attempts to keep onself in God's favor through works.

 

[CCWoody]

Please read what I just wrote to Mike, in post 850. "Leader" and "example" are the clear Greek meanings, and they fit the context.

So, can I assume by this that you fully intend to simply rewrite the Bible when you don't like what 2000 years of good Greek scholarship gave us and ignore those of us that warn you?

Well, then, carry on....

So many verses oppose "gifted-saving-faith" --- Heb11:6 is one of the clearest.

"Without faith it is impossible to please God; for he who comes to God must believe God is, and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."

There is no "predestined-faith" in that.

Sure it is. Those that are in the flesh cannot please God. And, not man calls Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

You are fully "caught", in the web of "fatalism". There is something we can do --- we can choose to believe in Jesus. Jesus said, "Those WHO act, are wise; those who do NOT act, are foolish".

No, Ben, you haven't the faintest clue what you really believe. Let me try to inform you, again....

If the Lord ALREADY knows that you will burn in the Lake of Fire forever, what can you do to change what the Lord ALREADY knows? NOTHING.

Do you honestly think that simply by making a choice you can erase the memory and mind of God? Now, if you want to call this "fatalism," then that is fine with me. But, you are NOT arguing against Calvinism. I presented SIMPLE Arminianism, which you called Fatalism.



Do you begin to see why I think you are really a closet Open Theist? They realized that Arminianism didn't solve the problem of God ordaining the future. All it did was simply make God a helpless spectator to the future someone else creates, which is a form of Dualism BTW. So, they simply chose to believe that the Lord doesn't exhaustively know the future.

If the future is known by God, whether he is the first cause of it or not, then THAT future is fixed and unchangeable. There is nothing you can do to change what God already knows. You will still perform that action, die in a car crash, walk away from God, burn in hell forever, etc.

Step into the light and become the Open Theist that is begging to get out.

Predestined to what --- to be Christlike? Or to salvation? It only says "predestined to be Christlike", doesn't it?

Ben, predestination to be conformed to the image of Christ is SALVATION.

HELLO!!!

It is salvation FROM the image that man currently bears: that of a wicked and rebellious servant. It is a salvation TO the image of the Lord: that of a true servant, a true son. It is redemption from a broken corrupted image to that of God.

I have a choice. Fore-known, is not fore-caused. God does not decree anyone to perish, nor does He decree anyone to salvation. Each receives the consequence of their choice, and that without partiality. Col3:25.

If the future is known by God, whether he is the first cause of it or not, then THAT future is fixed and unchangeable. There is nothing you can do to change what God already knows. You will still perform that action, die in a car crash, walk away from God, burn in hell forever, etc.

Step into the light and become the Open Theist that is begging to get out.

Calvinism wrests "consequence", with God's predestination, rather than rightly with man's choice. He has sovereignly chosen to allow men to love Him, or perish. That's well within His sovereignty.
That image, is a "straw man".
It's not just if he has no choice.

If the future is known by God, whether he is the first cause of it or not, then THAT future is fixed and unchangeable. There is nothing you can do to change what God already knows. You will still perform that action, die in a car crash, walk away from God, burn in hell forever, etc.

Step into the light and become the Open Theist that is begging to get out.

HELLO!!!

Recognize that all true Christians will be Calvinists in glory....

Your friendly neighborhood Cordial Calvinist
Woody.​

 

[CCWoody]

PS: If your book will be the end of Calvinism, why have not your posts ended Calvinism here?
Just a thought.

 

[cygnusx1]

If Ben sins, and then sins again and again (which is "unrepentance"), then yes he has forsaken Christ.

If Ben sins (all Christians do), but is promptly convicted and throws himself remorsefully on Christ's mercy and asks forgiveness, and asks strength in resisting sin, he has not forsaken Christ OR salvation.

Clear now?

not so fast ben , your arguement is flawed.

between the time of your sin and your confession , you are not being faithful , according to you , where there is no faith there is no salvation , when faithlessness happens salvation is lost.....

so how many times have you been saved ................

 

[Epiphoskei]

Jos 24:15 And if it seem evil to you to serve the LORD, choose you this day whom you will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that [were] on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land you dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Deut30:15ff "I have set before you life and death, propserity and adversity, the blessing and the curse. So CHOOSE LIFE by loving the Lord your God, by obeying His voice and following His statutes. For this is your life and the length of your days."

I know not where to begin with a post that long and disconnected, but let me start with this one challenge, given time and time again without answer.

Where, outside of philosophy, do you get the notion that an offer requires that the one to whom the offer is given might or might not want to accept, and where in scripture do you get the idea that determinism and free will are incompatable?

You have a philosophy that has blinded you. Only your philosophy can disagree with deterministic free will. Scripture does not say they contradict at all. Every time you quote a verse at me, it proves nothing you are saying. "It's a Choice! It's a Choice!" "'Choose' it says!" That proves nothing unless you also read your philosophy of incompatablism into it.

The scripture says that God has elected us unto salvation. (Eph. 1) It says that as many as are appointed unto eternal life believed. (Acts 13). No one can come unless the father draws him. (John 6:44) And that drawing is more than just a call, and there are people, like Judas, who did not come because they could not come because the father did not draw them, despite being called (John 6:64-65). And yet the scripture extends a genuine offer of salvation to all who repent, and yet what a man does he wills to do. The natural interpretation is that man's will and total divine sovereignty over election do not conflict, regardless of whether you think that is a contradiction. If the Bible says both, both are true, discussion is over.

 

[Bob L]

Calvinism teaches that all men are predestined, some for salvation, some for reprobation. They way to refute Calvinism is to politley tell the Calvinists that this would be closer to Islam, not Christianity.

 

[drstevej]

Calvinism teaches that all men are predestined, some for salvation, some for reprobation. They way to refute Calvinism is to politley tell the Calvinists that this would be closer to Islam, not Christianity.

I think the word is "tritely" not "politely."

 

[Ben johnson]

Proud of yourself? It seems so. And the issue with Arminianism is the demand to have something to boast about.

I don't identify as "Arminian". But for the thousandth time, there is nothing in us about which to boast; saving faith comes from fully broken conviction, we believe because we are humbled and realize how worthless we are without Him. There is no boast.

...except, "we boast IN HIM". And look how nicely Heb3:6 applies: "We are of Christ's house, IF we hold fast our confidence and the boast of our hope firm until the end."

This verse defeats you twice; our boast is JESUS, and WE hold it fast.

PS: If your book will be the end of Calvinism, why have not your posts ended Calvinism here?
Just a thought.

Because Calvinists will not accept the Scriptural refutations of their tennets; ignore yes, overturn no.

 

[Bob L]

I don't identify as "Arminian". But for the thousandth time, there is nothing in us about which to boast; saving faith comes from fully broken conviction, we believe because we are humbled and realize how worthless we are without Him. There is no boast.

Spot on Ben, this is exactly right.

 

[Ben johnson]

So, can I assume by this that you fully intend to simply rewrite the Bible...

I've rewritten nothing of Scripture; indeed, I risk running afoul of the "maximum verse quotation limit" asserted by the NASV publishers.

when you don't like what 2000 years of good Greek scholarship gave us and ignore those of us that warn you?

Calvinism (or Reformed Theology, or Predestined-Election), has not existed for 2000 years. But Scripture has overturned Calvinism. If "Good Greek Scholarship" asserts things like Acts13:48 means PREDESTINED-ORDINATION (of salvation), in the midst of verse 46 saying "They considered themselves unworthy of eternal life" --- then clearly that "good Greek scholarship", ain't so good.

Well, then, carry on....

Thank you, my friend. I think that we may be making progress; every Calvinist point has been responded, and now the "Responsible-Grace" posts (by me and others), will begin being non-responded.

Please understand I meant no offense in that statement.

 

[drstevej]

we believe because we are humbled and realize how worthless we are without Him. There is no boast.

So any one who has the realization of worthless without Him is saved?

 

[cygnusx1]

ben thinks Christ has done no more for a believer than a man in hell.......... all are treated equally , therefore no more praise should be forthcoming than from a man in hell.

 

[Ben johnson]

Sure it is. Those that are in the flesh cannot please God.

Again, "being in the flesh", or "putting the flesh to death by the Holy Spirit", is a choice. Rom8:12-14 is very clear.

And, no man calls Jesus Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

I searched for that verse; where is it?

No, Ben, you haven't the faintest clue what you really believe. Let me try to inform you, again....

I'm so glad you can.

If the Lord ALREADY knows that you will burn in the Lake of Fire forever, what can you do to change what the Lord ALREADY knows? NOTHING.

My only experiment in time-travel (an application of an "Einstein-Rosen Bridge"), gave me a glimpse of Mount Saint Helen's, a month before it happened. Did I cause it to happen? No. I simply saw the future. So too God knows who will believe, and who won't, but each man makes the choice. For reference I give you the parable of Matt22:2-14, where the king (symbolic for GOD) chooses no one; each makes the choice himself.

"Many are called (everyone), few are chosen (only those who deigned to COME)."

Do you honestly think that simply by making a choice you can erase the memory and mind of God?

Non-sequitur.

Now, if you want to call this "fatalism," then that is fine with me.

"Fatalism" says that GOD decides, and we can do NOTHING to change it. Scripture says that God KNOWS what we WILL do. Big difference.

But, you are NOT arguing against Calvinism. I presented SIMPLE Arminianism, which you called Fatalism.

Calvinism is fatalism. God chooses who lives, and who dies.

...and this conflicts Deut30:15ff. "I have set before you life and death ...so choose life..."

Do you begin to see why I think you are really a closet Open Theist?

Actually, no.

They realized that Arminianism didn't solve the problem of God ordaining the future. All it did was simply make God a helpless spectator to the future someone else creates, which is a form of Dualism BTW. So, they simply chose to believe that the Lord doesn't exhaustively know the future.

He knows, He chooses not to sovereignly-ordain life or death.

If the future is known by God, whether he is the first cause of it or not, then THAT future is fixed and unchangeable. There is nothing you can do to change what God already knows. You will still perform that action, die in a car crash, walk away from God, burn in hell forever, etc.

Might be true; but He did not DECIDE it.

Step into the light and become the Open Theist that is begging to get out.

Mmmmm, hmmmm.

Ben, predestination to be conformed to the image of Christ is SALVATION.

HELLO!!!

No --- those WHO LOVE God (who believe), He predestines to be CHRISTLIKE (through their belief).

It is salvation FROM the image that man currently bears: that of a wicked and rebellious servant. It is a salvation TO the image of the Lord: that of a true servant, a true son. It is redemption from a broken corrupted image to that of God.

Can you deny that "saving-faith", per Eph2:5-8, happened WHEN we were dead in sin?

How can you explain that?

If the future is known by God, whether he is the first cause of it or not, then THAT future is fixed and unchangeable.

When I saw Mount Saint Helens explode, I also saw in the local paper (back copies) that I had been killed the week before in a car wreck. Since I knew the time and place, I was able to return and avoid it.

So too God knows the future; but He chooses not to command anyone to love Him.

Have you not read 1Cor13:5? "Love does not demand its own way."

There is nothing you can do to change what God already knows. You will still perform that action, die in a car crash, walk away from God, burn in hell forever, etc.

But man decides those (most) eventualities, not God.

Step into the light and become the Open Theist that is begging to get out.

If you say so; though "OT" asserts God doesn't know the future, and I accept that He DOES.

If the future is known by God, whether he is the first cause of it or not, then THAT future is fixed and unchangeable. There is nothing you can do to change what God already knows. You will still perform that action, die in a car crash, walk away from God, burn in hell forever, etc.

Time exists for God, as a singularity. In computer terms, "we are serial, He is parallel."

Infinity is a single instant for God.

...and that does not deny that we are responsible for our choices.

Can you deny Rom2:6-8? (While you're there, address why Paul says "God's kindness is MEANT to lead you to REPENTANCE; but your hard unrepentant heart is making God MAD.")

 

[Ben johnson]

not so fast ben , your arguement is flawed.

between the time of your sin and your confession , you are not being faithful , according to you , where there is no faith there is no salvation , when faithlessness happens salvation is lost.....

It's still a case of "walking in sin" (which is unrepentance), or "walking in Christ". When one sins, the Spirit convicts --- quickly.

If "time" is important to you, please explain how "made alive", is "THROUGH FAITH", and "when we were dead in sins". Eph2:5-8.

so how many times have you been saved ................

How many times was the man in James5:19-20 saved? At least twice.

 

[Bob L]

ben thinks Christ has done no more for a believer than a man in hell.......... all are treated equally , therefore no more praise should be forthcoming than from a man in hell.

Cygnusx1, what would the difference be of the praise of God between a man in heavan and a man in hell?

THe man in hell says "Oh almighty God, you are ruler of the universe..."

The man in heaven says "Oh almighty God, you are ruler of the universe..."

Same difference I think.

 

[Ben johnson]

So any one who has the realization of worthless without Him is saved?

It would seem that such a realization, being true, would drive a man to believe and receive Jesus --- wouldn't it?

Belief and receiving Jesus joins us to Him, by adoption. John 1:12 is clear on that...

And perhaps 2Tim3:15 applies here; studying Scripture is able to give us wisdom that leads to saving-faith in Jesus.

Surely "wisdom" in that verse, equates to "realizing our worthlessness and need for Him"???

 

[Ben johnson]

Spot on Ben, this is exactly right.

Thank you, sir! Welcome to the boards! Hope (and pray) that you'll be blessed here. I know we'll be blessed by you!

 

[cygnusx1]

It's still a case of "walking in sin" (which is unrepentance), or "walking in Christ". When one sins, the Spirit convicts --- quickly.

If "time" is important to you, please explain how "made alive", is "THROUGH FAITH", and "when we were dead in sins". Eph2:5-8.

you haven't answered the question , yet ........

How many times was the man in James5:19-20 saved? At least twice.

 

[drstevej]

It would seem that such a realization, being true, would drive a man to believe and receive Jesus --- wouldn't it?

Sounds pretty Calvinistic Ben.