How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

[Rick Otto]

All creation belongs to God. All men belong to God, including the sinners He eventualy regenerates, even while they sin, but "belonging to God" in the sense offered in 1Jn3:10 ("of God")simply means they are not reborn yet, or not predestined to be.

"..to be the TWELVE DISCIPLES..."
-And to be disciples at all, never mind one of twelve.
Don't appoint exclusivity to one line among text that you apply to all who would be disciples of Christ. I incude context:
John 15:9-17 9 As the Father hath loved me, so have I loved you: continue ye in my love. 10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 11 These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy might remain in you, and that your joy might be full. 12 This is my commandment, That ye love one another, as I have loved you. 13 Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 14 Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you. 15 Henceforth I call you not servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I have heard of my Father I have made known unto you. 16 Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 17 These things I command you, that ye love one another.

Judas didn't escape his ordination. His ordination escapes our understanding, if we deny predestination's role.
"Recieved"(spirit) does not imply free will.
Reception is as predetermined as rejection.

If we both agree God is sovereign, we agree all timing is not only under His jurisdiction, but by His design, as well, not in any way dependant upon the thing He created, for nothing He creates resists His creative will. All is as He has made it to be, else He is not sovereign over it.

 

[drstevej]

For the peace of the board, it is best that we not debate. For the record, I care about you as my Christian brother, and wish you only God's blessings and maturity. The day will come when our differences will be resolved.

nm

 

[Ben johnson]

With respect, the discussions are ending when refutation is impossible. IOW, if what I cite from Scripture could be refuted, it would.

I gave you, what, four, five "smoking guns"? And you won't respond. Because the only responses that could possibly reflect "predestination", can be shown in conflict with Scripture.

I mean you no offense, Steve; but "no response", is often concession of the argument.

...except when the same refuted position is asserted again, as if never refuted.

Case in point, saying that 1Cor2:14 asserts "no unregenerated man can believe in Jesus". That's been refuted time and again, but still gets cited by various members as if not.

If you will "no longer debate", then please accept my grattitude for your participation this far. I look forward to seeing my brothers, including Calvinists, in the clouds when Jesus returns.

 

[drstevej]

With respect, the discussions are ending when refutation is impossible. IOW, if what I cite from Scripture could be refuted, it would.

I gave you, what, four, five "smoking guns"? And you won't respond. Because the only responses that could possibly reflect "predestination", can be shown in conflict with Scripture.

I mean you no offense, Steve; but "no response", is often concession of the argument.

...except when the same refuted position is asserted again, as if never refuted.

Case in point, saying that 1Cor2:14 asserts "no unregenerated man can believe in Jesus". That's been refuted time and again, but still gets cited as if not.

If you will "no longer debate", then please accept my grattitude for your position this far. I look forward to seeing my brothers, including Calvinists, in the clouds when Jesus returns.

nm

 

[Rightglory]

Heymikey80,

Most of your replys clearly portray a calvinistic, protestant melieu in interpreting both scripture and the Church Fathers. You also show no understanding in the meaning and definition of the Church as understood by the Church Fathers.
That should not be unusual in that any rationalization or redefining of terms used to fit the Calvinistic understanding must be maintained or the whole deck of cards falls. There just is no historical support of Calvinism in Church History prior to Calvin himself. As far as since Calvin that must also still be ascertained.
You have already stated that doctrine and faith need not follow through history. One can obviously, by your view determine doctrine and faith per your and anyone's interpretation from a Book that is not even the whole of the Gospel given.
Why should that be so strange to say when the history of protestantism is precisely that practice.
Much of what you disagreed with is your personal opinion of what both the Bible and Tradition states. Consequently, there is no basis for Truth. How would one expect a unity of faith, when it depends on separate individuals. The Church does not depend on individuals doing their personal interpretations of what they desire to believe. But what they do believe being handed down from the Apostles. It is not individuals that determines that Truth, but their acceptance of that Truth. It is the entire corporate Body of individuals that maintains that Truth through the Work of the Holy Spirit in each all through history. Not one short time in history, or a few individuals in a certain time, but the Body, wholly, from the beginning.
That is what you fail to understand how the Church has always seen herself. That some or many even disagree with that, does not change the meaning or the Truth as it has stood for 2000 years.
I can also understand why and how you see your opinions as Truth. All protestants do. They believe that they have the inherent right to interpret scripture in the light they receive, thus all interpretations are valid. Your's just do not agree with many others and consequently you have absolute truth of one or a few. It is a very comfortable, psychological position and that is why man agrees with it so much. It is why the west is sinking in the mass of humanism, secularism and faith being molded by social mores.
It is expressly why the concept that faith and Truth can and must be updated, made more relevant to the times. How could Truth be Truth when it is relativistic.
Thus faith becomes quite meaningless as does Truth.

 

[drstevej]

Rightglory: Whose magisterium do we choose? The Catholic or the Orthodox?

 

[heymikey80]

"This is not right. This is not even wrong."

This posting represents so little of the truth that I ... can't even find one sentence that states something based on facts. I didn't realize Orthodoxy could produce such objectionable lack of orthodoxy among its adherents. My Orthodox friends have turned in disgust from this misrepresentation of their beloved faith. I suggest you do the same. You've lost the argument. Don't compound the problem by embracing abusive attacks. It's not Christ-worthy.

It's not my interpretation when the words of Christ and the Apostles clearly state the facts. And it's quite clear to me from your highhanded dismissal that when some Orthodox deviate from the historic faith handed down to the Apostles that they too interpret away the clear meaning of the text.

But the good news is that there is a remnant preserving the Apostles' teaching within the Orthodox church. And so it remains a church despite its corruption (even among those thinking it's incorruptible).

 

[Rightglory]

Heymikey80,

All assertions here and before that you have been unable to show any fact that it is even remotely misrepresented. As a true protestant you have simply interepreted them, not as historical fact but within the paradigm of protestantism.
That can be expected as I had stated.
However, that does not overturn the Truth that has prevailed for 2000 years.

 

[cygnusx1]

Heymikey80,

All assertions here and before that you have been unable to show any fact that it is even remotely misrepresented. As a true protestant you have simply interepreted them, not as historical fact but within the paradigm of protestantism.
That can be expected as I had stated.
However, that does not overturn the Truth that has prevailed for 2000 years.

far from proving your assertions you merely repeat this phrase , which basically means "I am right so anyone who disagrees must be wrong" it doesn't help.

 

[Rightglory]

Cygnus,

far from proving your assertions you merely repeat this phrase , which basically means "I am right so anyone who disagrees must be wrong" it doesn't help

Fortunately it is not my personal Truth as it seems with yours. But it is the Truth, as proclaimed by Christ, given to the Apostles and has been preserved for 2000 years of living faith. It has been the testament of the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit through faith and practice.

 

[cygnusx1]

Cygnus,

far from proving your assertions you merely repeat this phrase , which basically means "I am right so anyone who disagrees must be wrong" it doesn't help

Fortunately it is not my personal Truth as it seems with yours. But it is the Truth, as proclaimed by Christ, given to the Apostles and has been preserved for 2000 years of living faith. It has been the testament of the ongoing work of the Holy Spirit through faith and practice.

seeing as you are self proclaimed fallible I will take your comments as such!

 

[drstevej]

Rightglory: Whose magisterium do we choose? The Catholic or the Orthodox?

bump for reply

 

[Rightglory]

drstevej,

Whose magisterium do we choose? The Catholic or the Orthodox?

Where is the Magisterium for the Othodox?

 

[cygnusx1]

drstevej,

Where is the Magisterium for the Othodox?

search me , i tried finding out 2 years ago on here and got nowhere.

 

[drstevej]

drstevej,

Where is the Magisterium for the Othodox?

In Rome where you guys left it, of course.

 

[Rightglory]

Drstevej,

In Rome where you guys left it, of course.

Never had one, so how could we leave it in Rome. Rome only created one after they left the Church.

 

[Rightglory]

Cygnus

search me , i tried finding out 2 years ago on here and got nowhere.

Keep spinning your wheels. Just a hint, you'll never find one.

 

[Iosias]

Even though I presently cringe at the idea of election

Have a read through these brother

[URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:1-3"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:1-3"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:1-3"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:1-3"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:1-3"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:1-3"]Romans 9:1-3 [/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]--Our Approach to the Doctrine of Predestination by Rev. Herman Hoeksema
[URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:6-8"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:6-8"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:6-8"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:6-8"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:6-8"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:6-8"]Romans 9:6-8 [/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]-- Spiritual and Carnal Children by Rev. Herman Hoeksema
[URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:10-13"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:10-13"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:10-13"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:10-13"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:10-13"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:10-13"]Romans 9:10-13 [/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL](I) --Separation Between Twin Brothers by Rev. Herman Hoeksema
[URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:10-13"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:10-13"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:10-13"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:10-13"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:10-13"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:10-13"]Romans 9:10-13 [/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL](II) --Founded in God's Good Pleasure Alone by Rev. Herman Hoeksema
[URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:14-16"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:14-16"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:14-16"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:14-16"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:14-16"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:14-16"]Romans 9:14-16 [/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL](I) --The Righteousness of God's Sovereign Mercy by Rev. Herman Hoeksema
[URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:14-16"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:14-16"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:14-16"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:14-16"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:14-16"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:14-16"]Romans 9:14-16 [/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL](II) -- Of God's Sovereign Mercy by Rev. Herman Hoeksema
[URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:16"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:16"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:16"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:16"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:16"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:16"]Romans 9:16 [/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]--The Source of Salvation by Prof. David J. Engelsma
[URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:19-21"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:19-21"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:19-21"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:19-21"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:19-21"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:19-21"]Romans 9:19-21 [/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]--God's Absolute Sovereignty in Predestination by Rev. Herman Hoeksema
[URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:19-21"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:19-21"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:19-21"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:19-21"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:19-21"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:19-21"]Romans 9:19-21 [/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL](I) -- The Potter and the Clay by Rev. Herman Hoeksema
[URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:19-21"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:19-21"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:19-21"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:19-21"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:19-21"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:19-21"]Romans 9:19-21 [/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL](II) -- Who Art Thou, O Man? by Rev. Herman Hoeksema
[URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:20"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:20"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:20"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:20"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:20"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:20"]Romans 9:20 [/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL]-- God's Drawing and Man's Responsibility by Rev. Herman Hoeksema
[URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:22-23"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:22-23"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:22-23"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:22-23"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:22-23"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:22-23"]Romans 9:22-23 [/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL](I) -- God's Sovereign Dealings by Rev. Herman Hoeksema
[URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:22-23"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:22-23"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:22-23"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:22-23"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:22-23"][URL="http://bible.gospelcom.net/bible?version=KJV&passage=Romans+9:22-23"]Romans 9:22-23 [/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL][/URL](II) -- Long-suffering and Forbearance by Rev. Herman Hoeksema

 

[Elife3]

Even though I presently cringe at the idea of election -- how can it be refuted after reading Romans 9?

10Not only that, but Rebekah's children had one and the same father, our father Isaac. 11Yet, before the twins were born or had done anything good or bad--in order that God's purpose in election might stand: 12not by works but by him who calls--she was told, "The older will serve the younger."[4] 13Just as it is written: "Jacob I loved, but Esau I hated."[5]

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
"I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion."[6] 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth."[7] 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' "[8] 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?



(emphasis mine)

How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

As for God's mercy, I believe that God determines who is going to accept the gift of salvation. Also, God has plans for everyone and I don't think that any two people would be exactly the same to the core.

 

[Ben johnson]

It's not my interpretation when the words of Christ and the Apostles clearly state the facts.

The "facts", as have been posted by Calvinists, have been refuted one by one. And still citations appear from 1Cor2:14, 2Cor4:3-4, Mark4:9-11, Ezk36:26-27, Eph1:4-5, etcetera.

And verses are cited which cannot be answered by Calvinists; 1Cor9:23-27 for instance; and Matt23:13, Matt11:21-24. Answers have been attempted, such as "not really shut off", "only disqualified from REWARDS", and "they were rebuked but it still was GOD who decided they wouldn't be repentant".

But the good news is that there is a remnant preserving the Apostles' teaching within the Orthodox church. And so it remains a church despite its corruption (even among those thinking it's incorruptible).

The Apostle's teaching??? The Apostle's teaching was "universal redemption and atonement, realized personally BY faith", and warning after warning for us to persevere IN Christ.

If Paul said "thinking that we cannot fall is arrogant", how can we not believe him? Rom11:18-23