How, then, is the Calvinist refuted?

[cygnusx1]

In Acts 13:48 Luke says that only those men who were appointed by God to eternal life believed. “Now when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and glorified the word of the Lord. And as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.” The Greek word tetagmenoi, which is translated as ordained (KJV, ASV, RSV), appointed (NKJV, NASB, Berkeley, Young’s Literal Translation of the Bible) and destined (JB) is the passive form of the verb tasso which (as might be expected) means to ordain, or to appoint. The fact that the verb is passive indicates that these people did not ordain themselves but were chosen by an outside agent—God the Father. “In the Greek, the form were ordained is a passive participle in the perfect tense.
The perfect denotes action that took place in the past but is relevant for the present.”[22] God predestined the salvation of particular persons even among the Gentiles. Thus, Luke, writing under divine inspiration, explicitly endorses the doctrine of unconditional election. These people believed in Christ because God first appointed them to eternal life. Therefore, this passage explicitly contradicts the idea that election is God’s response to man’s faith. God’s choice of a person to be saved is the cause, not the effect, of that person’ faith in Christ. Therefore, God receives all the glory for our salvation and we have no reason to boast.

Why then, do some people believe and others disbelieve? According to Luke, the difference is not that some people are smarter, wiser or more holy than others, but that God has chosen or ordained some to life and passed by the rest. If you believe in Christ it is because God chose you and gave you the ability to believe by the mighty power of the Holy Spirit. God drew you to Christ and turned your stony heart into a heart of flesh. He turned your enmity toward the Savior into love and delight. God makes the unwilling, willing. Calvin writes,
[T]his ordaining must be understood of the eternal counsel of God alone….And this place teacheth that faith dependeth upon God’s election. And assuredly, seeing that the whole race of mankind is blind and stubborn, those diseases stick fast in our nature until they are redressed by the grace of the Spirit, and that redressing floweth from the fountain of election alone. For in that of two which hear the same doctrine together, the one showeth himself apt to be taught, the other continueth in his obstinancy. It is not, therefore, because God doth lighten [illumine] the former, and doth not vouchsafe the other the like grace….though our heavenly Father invited all men into the faith by the external voice of man, yet doth he not call effectually by his Spirit any save those whom He hath determined to save.[23]


Those who reject predestination and unconditional election have attempted to circumvent the clear meaning of this passage in two different ways. First, there are people who simply ignore the meaning of the Greek and twist the passage so that it means what they would like it to mean. Thus, the Arminian translator of the Living Bible translates Acts 13:48b as follows: “…and as many as wanted eternal life believed.” Not only does this translation completely pervert the meaning of the original Greek but it also assumes something quite ridiculous. Apparently, those who did not believe did so because they did not want eternal life. In other words, they didn’t believe because they preferred the eternal tortures hell over paradise. They must have been sadomasochists! Another arbitrary translation comes from the pen of the old heretic Socinius who invented his own Greek grammar to have the passage say, “…as many as believed, were ordained to eternal life.” Socinius held to the view that if the Bible doesn’t say what one thinks it should, then one should switch the words around until it does.

Second, a more sophisticated method for avoiding the doctrine of foreordination is to argue that the verb is not passive but middle: “…as many as were disposed to eternal life believed.” (In the Greek language passive and middle verbs have the same ending.) Such a translation must be rejected for the following reasons: a) Such a translation ignores the analogy of Scripture and the entire New Testament which teaches that God ordains or predestinates and not man (cf. Rom. 8:28-29; 9:11; Eph. 1:4; 1 Tim. 1:9; 1 Cor. 1:26-29; 1Pet. 1:2, etc). b) It ignores the context of the book of Acts which teaches that no man is able to put himself in God’s debt by his own powers or works (Ac. 8:19ff; 13:39; 16:14). “[W]henever this verb occurs elsewhere, it invariably expresses the exertion of power or authority, divine or human, and being in the passive voice, cannot denote mere disposition, much less self-determination, any more than the form used in 2, 40 above…”[24] c) The concept of being disposed to eternal life as a cause of believing is odd and foreign to Scripture. If we define dispose as having a natural inclination towards something, then would not everyone believe? How many people are there who would say that they do not want to go to heaven but instead have a preference for the flames of hell? The issue in Scripture is never a preference for heaven or hell but rather one’s attitude toward Jesus Christ. On this issue the Bible is crystal clear. No one has a natural disposition towards the Savior unless they were appointed to life by God and their hearts are changed by a sovereign work of the Holy Spirit.


Therefore, one should not be surprised to discover that all the ancient translations (including the Latin Vulgate, Syriac, and Arabic as well as virtually all modern translations (Living Bible excepted) translate tetamenoi as the passive: “were ordained, or appointed.” Given the biblical evidence we must heed the wisdom of C. H. Spurgeon on this passage. He writes:
Attempts have been made to prove that these words do not teach predestination, but these attempts so clearly do violence to language that I shall not waste time in answering them. I read, ‘As many as were ordained to eternal life believed’ and I shall not twist the text but shall glorify the grace of God by ascribing to that grace the faith of every man. Is it not God who gives the disposition to believe? If men are disposed to have eternal life, does not He—in every case—dispose them? Is it wrong for God to give grace? If it be right for Him to give it—is it wrong for Him to purpose to give it? Would you have Him give it by accident? If it is right for Him to purpose to give grace to-day, it was right for Him to purpose it before today—and, since He changes not—from eternity.[25

http://www.reformedonline.com/view/reformedonline/Chosen by God.htm

 

[Rightglory]

Acts 13:48,

Acts 13:48
if we take into consideration that God did not foreordain believers, since no place else in scripture supports this notion. Given the fact that through the Incarnation, and Christ resurrection, all men have eternal life one is going to be limited to the context of the immediate passage.
The Gentiles were being told that the Gospel was for them as well as the Jew. They had been taught for a very long time that the Jew was a previleged race respective of the OT and Israel.
Now they were hearing that they were also included.
Now, we also know from scripture that the Holy Spirit calls all men to repentance. The Holy spirit works to convict men of their sin and so incline them to believe and repent. This summary verse is precisely what is being conveyed. Those that heard were inclined, disposed to believe to eternal life. Not just eternal life but eternal life with Christ.
You go through a lot of gymnastics relative to the Greek meaning. you should have gone to some of the Greek Early Fathers and their homiles and you would have learned this. But of course, predestination would have been absent.

 

[Ben johnson]

Acts13:46 is very telling in the context; the Jews "unappointed themselves" (judged themselves unworthy for eternal life). This is why the Gospel was opened to the Gentiles.

See if this makes sense:
"Jews un-elected themselves"
"God sovereignly ordained the Gentiles"

Make sense? Not to me. If the Jews removed themselves from election, then the context must reflect "the Gentiles positioned THEMSELVES for salvation".

If one, then the other; if not the other, then not the one...

 

[cygnusx1]

Acts 13:48,

Acts 13:48
if we take into consideration that God did not foreordain believers, since no place else in scripture supports this notion. Given the fact that through the Incarnation, and Christ resurrection, all men have eternal life one is going to be limited to the context of the immediate passage.
The Gentiles were being told that the Gospel was for them as well as the Jew. They had been taught for a very long time that the Jew was a previleged race respective of the OT and Israel.
Now they were hearing that they were also included.
Now, we also know from scripture that the Holy Spirit calls all men to repentance. The Holy spirit works to convict men of their sin and so incline them to believe and repent. This summary verse is precisely what is being conveyed. Those that heard were inclined, disposed to believe to eternal life. Not just eternal life but eternal life with Christ.
You go through a lot of gymnastics relative to the Greek meaning. you should have gone to some of the Greek Early Fathers and their homiles and you would have learned this. But of course, predestination would have been absent.

oh dear , you imagine believers arn't ordained (predestined) , well I will just have to recognise God has said so and defy any who say He hasn't Romans 8 and Eph 1 .

 

[frumanchu]

Acts13:46 is very telling in the context; the Jews "unappointed themselves" (judged themselves unworthy for eternal life). This is why the Gospel was opened to the Gentiles.

See if this makes sense:
"Jews un-elected themselves"
"God sovereignly ordained the Gentiles"

Make sense? Not to me. If the Jews removed themselves from election, then the context must reflect "the Gentiles positioned THEMSELVES for salvation".

If one, then the other; if not the other, then not the one...

Too bad the Greek doesn't support your theory. The Gentiles did not appoint themselves. They were appointed. Nowhere in the NT is that tense and form translated as a direct middle, no matter how many times you try to claim that it is. The appointment was an action that happened and was completed in the past, and its results are ongoing.

 

[themuzicman]

With the few number of times this word is used, you can hardly claim that this is an invalid translation.

Muz

 

[Rick Otto]

He has simply corrected(reformed) your redefinition.

 

[Rightglory]

Cygnusx1,

oh dear , you imagine believers arn't ordained (predestined) , well I will just have to recognise God has said so and defy any who say He hasn't Romans 8 and Eph 1 .

Again, prooftext that simply is used to support your presupposition of predestination. Yet, predestination has no historical record as ever having been believed, was never part of the Gospel Truth. If it was, it would have been from the beginning and we would have seen its understanding as a doctrine of the Church from the beginning.
It is still a doctrine that is in constant development and has not yet landed. Hardly Gospel Truth from the beginning.
Give me some historical substance that it was in fact the Gospel.

 

[cygnusx1]

Cygnusx1,

Again, prooftext that simply is used to support your presupposition of predestination. Yet, predestination has no historical record as ever having been believed, was never part of the Gospel Truth. If it was, it would have been from the beginning and we would have seen its understanding as a doctrine of the Church from the beginning. [/size][/font]
It is still a doctrine that is in constant development and has not yet landed. Hardly Gospel Truth from the beginning.
Give me some historical substance that it was in fact the Gospel.

sounds like a mantra...... I will if I get the time research the Fathers , but scripture is sufficient for me.and scripture teaches Election and predestination , the fact you cannot accept it is neither here nor there , it doesn't change scripture .

 

[cygnusx1]

Clemens Romanus. A.D. 69.
Clement of Rome, lived in the times of the apostles, and is, by Clement of Alexandria,[1] called an apostle. He is thought by some[2] to be the same Clement the apostle Paul speaks of, in Philippians 4:3, as one of his fellow-laborers.He wrote an epistle in the name of the church at Rome to the church at Corinth, about[3] the year 69, which is the earliest piece of antiquity next to the writings of the apostles extant, being written when some of them were living, even before the apostle John wrote his Epistles, and the book of the Revelation, and while the temple at Jerusalem was yet standing. In this epistle are several things relating to the doctrine of election, and which greatly serve to confirm it. For,
1. Agreeable to the apostolic doctrine, that God worketh all things after the council of his own will (Eph. 1:11), that his purposes shall stand, and that whatsoever he has determined shall come to pass, Clement affirms, that[4] "when he wills, and as he wills, he does all things;" kai ouden mh tarelqh twn dedogmatwmenwn up autou,and that "none of those things which are decreed by him, shall pass away," or be unaccomplished: which shows his sense of the dependency of all things upon the will of God, and of the immutability of his decrees in general.
2. He not only frequently makes mention of persons under the character of the elect of God,but also intimates, that there is a certain, special, and peculiar number of them fixed by him. Speaking of the schism and sedition in the church at Corinth, he represents it[5] as what was "very unbecoming, and should be far from toiv eklektoiv tou Qeou,the elect of God." And elsewhere[6] having cited Psalm 18:26, he says, "Let us therefore join ourselves to the innocent and righteous, for eisin outoi eklektoi tou Qeou, they are the elect of God;" that is, they appear to be so, these are characters descriptive of them. And in another place,[7] enlarging in commendation of the grace of love, he says, "Love knows no schism, is not seditious; love does all things in harmony; pantev oi eklektoi tou Qeou,all the elect of God are made perfect in love:" which agrees with what the apostle says of them, that they are chosen to be holy and without blame before him in love (Eph. 1:4). Moreover, Clement observes,[8] to the praise of the members of the church of Corinth, to whom he writes, that formerly their "contention was night and day for the whole brotherhood, that ton ariqmon twn eklektwn autou, the number of his elect might be saved, with mercy and a good conscience." And elsewhere[9] he says, that "God chose the Lord Jesus Christ, and us by him, eiv laon periousion, for a peculiar people."
3. Whereas the apostle Paul, writing to the Ephesians, says; Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who hath blessed us with all spiritual blessings, in heavenly places, in Christ; according as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation oaf the world ( Eph. 1:3, 4), we conclude from hence, that from all eternity there was a preparation of spiritual blessings made; and agreeably, Clement, our apostolical writer, has these words; "Let us therefore consider,[10] brethren, out of what matter we are made; who and what we were when we came into the world, as out of the grave and darkness itself; who, having made and formed us, brought us into his world proetoimasav tav euergesiav autou prin hmav gennhqhnai, having first prepared his good things for us, before we were born."
4. This very ancient writer plainly intimates, that the special and spiritual blessings of grace are peculiar to the elect of God; and that it is the stable and unalterable will of God, that his chosen ones should partake of them: particularly repentance, and remission of sins: for having mentioned those words in Psalm 32:1, 2, Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered; Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile; he observes,[11] that this blessedness comes upon, or belongs unto, touv eklelegmenouv upo tou Qeou, those that are chosen of God by Jesus Christ our Lord." And in another place,[12] having taken notice of some general instances, declarations, and exhortations, encouraging men to repentance, suggests, that God’s design herein, was to bring to repentance such as were interested in his love; his words are these; "Therefore He (that is, God), being desirous that pantav touv agaphtav, all his beloved ones should partake of repentance, confirmed it by his almighty will." That is, God, not willing,as the apostle Peter says, that any of his beloved ones should perish, but that all of them should come to repentance (2 Peter 3. 9), fixed it by an unchangeable decree, that they should come to repentance; and therefore makes use of the above declarations and exhortations as means to bring them to it.
5. As the Scriptures always ascribe the act of election to God, and not men, and represent it as made in Christ, and by or through Him (Eph.1:4, 5); that he was first chosen as a head, and the elect as members in him; so Clement speaks[13] of God as he oeklexamenov ton Kurion Iesoun Criston kai hmav di auton,who hath chosen the Lord Jesus Christ, and us by him;" and of the elect as chosen upw tou Qeou dia Iesou Cristou tou Kuriou hmwn,of God through Jesus Christ our Lord; and exhorts men[14] to come to God in holiness of soul, lifting up pure and undefiled hands unto him, loving our mild and merciful Father, ov hmav ekloghv merov epoihsen eautw, "who hath made us a part of the election for himself."
ENDNOTES:

[1]

Stromat. 50:4, p. 516.​

[2]​

Euseb. Eccl. Hist. 50:3, c. 15; Hieron. Catalog. Script. Eccl. s. 25.

[3]​

Fabricii Bibl. Graec. 50:4, c. 5, p. 175.

[4]​

Epist. ad Corinth. 1. 64.

[5]​

Epist. ad Corinth.i. p. 2.

[6]​

Ibid. p. 104.

[7]​

Epist. ad Corinth. 1. 64.

[8]​

Ibid. p. 6.

[9]​

Ibid. p. 130.

[10]​

Epist. ad Corinth. 1. 88.

[11]​

Ibid. p. 114.

[12]​

Ibid. p. 20.

[13]​

Episi. ad Corinth. p. 130, 114.

[14]​

Ibid. p. 66.

 

[cygnusx1]

Ignatius. A.D. 110.
Ignatius was made bishop of Antioch, A.D. 71, according to Alsted,[1] and suffered martyrdom according to some,[2] in the eleventh year of Trajan, and according to others,[3] in the nineteenth year of that Emperor, A.D. 116. There are several epistles written by him still extant; among which is an Epistle to the Ephesians, and is thus inscribed:[4] "Ignatius, who is also Theophorus, To the blessed in the greatness of God the Father and fullness; th prowrismenh pro aiwnwn to the predestinated before ages,that is, before the world began; always to be a glory, abiding, immoveable, united and chosen in the true passion by the will of God the Father, and Jesus Christ our God; to the church, worthily blessed, which is in Ephesus of Asia, much joy in Christ Jesus, and in the unblemished grace." In which, besides the doctrines of Christ’s Deity, and the saints perseverance, may be observed that of eternal predestination to grace and glory. In his epistle to the Magnesians,[5] he speaks of two sorts of persons, signified by "two pieces of money; the one belongs to God, and the other to the world; which have each their own characters upon them, and every one shall go eiv ton idion topon,to his own place;" which Barnabas, the companion of the apostle Paul, calls, in his epistle,[6] wrismenon topon, "the anointed place;" for as wicked men, such as Judas, go to their own place, which is no other than hell-fire, prepared for the devil and his angels; so good men go to their own place, appointed by God for them, which is the kingdom, prepared for them from the foundation of the world, an which Polycarp, bishop of Smyrna, and disciple of the apostle John, calls[7] ton ofeilomenon autoiv topon, "the place that is due unto them, not by works, but of grace." And here it may be proper to insert a passage out of an epistle[8] which the church of Smyrna, of which Polycarp was bishop, and to whom Ignatius wrote, one of his epistles, declaring, that when "the executioner sheathed his sword in Polycarp, such a quantity of blood came out as quenched the fire; and the whole multitude wondered that there was such a difference metaxu twn te apistwn kai twn eklektwn, between the infidels and the elect."


ENDNOTES:

[1] Thesaur. Chronol. Chron. 43, p. 450.​

[2]​

Heiron. Catolog. Script. Eccl. s. 26.​

[3]​

Vide Fabricii Bibl. Graec. 50:5, c. 1, p. 39.​

[4]​

Ignat. Epist. p. 16.​

[5]​

Ibid. p. 32.​

[6]​

Part 2. s. 1, p. 248.​

[7]​

Epist. ad Philippians apud Euseb. Eccl. Hist. 50:3, c. 36, p. 108.​

[8]​

Apud. ib. 50:4, c. 15, p. 134.​

 

[cygnusx1]

Justin. A.D. 150.
Justin, called the Martyr, to distinguish him from others of the same name, was a native of Samaria; he was born A.D. 89, was brought up a philosopher, afterwards became a Christian, and suffered martyrdom in the third year of M. Aurelius Antonius, and L. Verus, A.D. 163.[1] Several of his writings continue to this day, in which may be observed:
1. That he ascribes to God an eternal and universal prescience of future events; upon which proceed depredictions in the sacred writings. He asserts that God foreknew who would be good or bad, who would repent and believe, and who not, and who will be saved or damned; all which, as it perfectly agrees with the word of God, so with our sentiments. Justin no where says,that God foreknew that any would be good, repent, and believe of themselves, without his grace, by the mere strength of nature; and that he chose any to glory and happiness upon such a foresight of their good works, repentance, and faith: much less that he chose them to grace upon a prescience of these things; and, indeed, no man in his senses would say, that God chose man to faith upon a foresight of faith; but lest what this author has said should be thought to militate against us, we will produce the several passages. Addressing himself[2] to Trypho the Jew, he thus speaks: "None of you, as I think, will dare to say, oti me kai prognostes ton ginesthai mellonton en kai estino Theos, kai ta axia ekasto proetoimazon,that God was not, and is not, foreknowing of what shall be done, or afore prepares not things fitting for every one." And elsewhere,[3] alethesteroi oi apo ton ethnon kai pistoteroi proeginoskonto,"the more true and faithful among the Gentiles, were foreknown;" that is, it was foreknown by God, that many of them would be so. Hence the prophets, under the inspiration of the Holy Ghost, foretold, that they would believe in Christ, when "the Jews and Samaritans, who had the word delivered them from God by the prophets, and were always expecting the Messiah, knew him not when he came; plhn oligwn tinwn, excepting some few, whom the holy prophetic Spirit, by Isaiah, proeipe swqhsesqai, foretold should be saved; who, personating them, said, Except the Lord had left us a seed, we had been as Sodom and Gomorrah."He has, indeed, this observation,[4] and it is a very good one, "that when we assert that what is foretold by the prophets shall be done, we do not say, that it shall be done by the necessity of fate, alla prognostou tou Theou outos ton mellonton upo panton anthropon prachthesesthai,but that God foreknows things future, that shall be done by all men."So having cited Isaiah 33:18,[5] he says, "that the people who were foreknown to believe in him (Christ) oti laos o eis auton pisteuein proegnosmenos,should meditate the fear of the Lord, was also foreknown, the very words of the prophecy declare." And in another place,[6] says he; "I am able to show, that all the things appointed by Moses were types, symbols, and declarations of what should be done to Christ; kai ton eis auton pisteuein proegnosmenon,and of them that were foreknown to believe in him: and likewise of those things that were to be done by Christ." And elsewhere,[7] speaking of the punishment of devils and wicked men, which is at present deferred by God for the sake of men, gives this as the reason of it: proginoskei gar tinas en me tanoias sothesesthai mellontas, kai tinas medepo isos gennethentas; "for he foreknew that some would be saved through repentance; and, perhaps, some not yet born:" for at first he made mankind intelligent, and able to choose the truth, and to do well; so that all "men are left without excuse by God."
2. Justin asserts, that God not only foreknows that some will be saved, and others damned, but that he has afore prepared salvation for some persons, and punishment for others. Speaking[8] of the sufferings of Christians for the sake of Christ, he has these words; which, says he, we bear, that we may not "with our voice deny Christ, by whom we are called eiv swthrian thn prohtoimasmenhn para tou Patrov hmwn,unto the salvation which is before prepared by our Father." And in another place,[9] treating of Christ as the Angel of the great counsel,according to the Septuagint version of Isaiah 9:6, he thus speaks: "The great things, ebebouleuto o Pathr, which the Father hath in his counsel appointed for all men," that are or shall be well-pleasing to him, and likewise those that depart from his will, whether angels or men, he only (Christ) hath most clearly taught, Matthew 8:11, 12, and 7:22, 23; and in other words, when he will condemn the unworthy that shall not be saved, he will say to them, "Go ye into outer darkness, which the Father hath prepared for Satan and his angels."He elsewhere,[10] indeed well observes, "that it is not the fault of God, oi proginwskomenoi kai genhsomenoi adikoi, that those who are foreknown, and shall be unrighteous, whether angels or men, that they are wicked; but it is through their own fault that every one is such as he appears to be." And a little further, he adds, "Wherefore if the word of God intimates beforehand that some angels and men shall be punished, because that proeginosken autous ometabletous genesomenous ponerous,he foreknew that they would be immutably wicked;" it has foretold these things, but not that God has made them such; seeing, if they repent, all, boulomenoi,that are willing to obtain the mercy of God may. To which we heartily agree. We say that God makes no man wicked, but he makes himself so; that neither the foreknowledge of God, nor his decrees, necessitate men to sin; and that God damns no man, nor has he decreed to damn any but for sin; and that whoever is truly desirous of the grace and mercy of God, may obtain it through Christ.
3. This ancient and valuable Christian writer not only speaks of the people of God under the title and appellation of the elect,as he does at the close of an epistle[11] of his to some persons for whom he prays, that "the Lord of glory, who exists for ever, would give to them all to enjoy honor and rest meta twn eklektwn, with the elect;" but he also speaks of them as a special people, selected out of every nation, and as a fixed number to be completed. In one place, disputing with Trypho the Jew, he has these words:[12] "God, out of all nations, took your nation to himself, a nation unprofitable, disobedient, and unfaithful; thereby pointing out touv apo pantov genouv airoumenouv, those that are chosen out of every nation to obey his will, by Christ, whom also he calls Jacob, and names Israel." And addressing himself to the same Jew, he says,[13] "In all these discourses I have brought all my proofs out of your holy and prophetic writings, hoping that some of you may be found ek tou kata charin ten apo tou Kuriou sabaoth perileieiphthentos eis ten aionion soterian,of the number which through the grace that comes from the Lord of Sabaoth, is left or reserved to everlasting salvation." And in another treatise of his he observes,[14] that "God introduced Christ into heaven after his resurrection from the dead, and detains him there until he has smitten his enemies the devils, kai suntelesthe o arithmos ton proegnosthenon auto aga non ginomenon kai enareton,and the number of them that are foreknown by him to be good and virtuous is completed; di otv, for whose sake he has not yet made the determined consummation." Which perfectly agrees with the doctrine of the apostle Peter, and gives light into the sense of his words in 2 Peter 3:9, where the same reason is given for the deferring of Christ’s coming to judgment. There is but one passage out of Justin produced by Dr. Whitby[15] in opposition to the doctrine of absolute election, and that properly belongs to the article of free will under which it will be considered.
ENDNOTES:

[1]​

Vide Fabricii Bibl. Graec. 50:5, c. 1, p. 51. 52.​

[2]​

Dialog. cum Tryph. p. 234.​

[3]​

Apulog. pro Christian. 2, p. 88, 89.​

[4]​

Ibid. p. 82.​

[5]​

Dialog. cum. Tryph. p. 296, 297.​

[6]​

Ibid. p, 261.​

[7]​

Apol. pro Christ. 2. p. 71.​

[8]​

Dialog. cum. Tryph. p. 360.​

[9]​

Ibid. p. 301.​

[10]​

Ibid. p. 370.​

[11]​

Epist. ad Zeuam et Sereu. p. 515.​

[12]​

Dialog. cum Tryph, 359, 360.​

[13]​

Ibid. p. 249.​

[14]​

Apol. pro Christ. 2, p. 82.​

[15]​

Disc. on the Five Points, p. 96: ed. 2. 95.​

 

[Rightglory]

Cygnusx1.

Do you have any quotes that actually support your view of presdestination. Quoting some Church Fathers that don't support Calvinism brand of Calvinism is not going to cut it for you.

However, it did answer three false concepts I hear from Calvinists in particular.
Foreknowledge does not mean foreordination.
Man is free to choose Christ.
And that believers, the elect, are chosen (elected) IN Christ.
All that verbiage and one little word sinks the whole thing. Just what the verse in Romans 8:30 and Eph 1:4-5. says.

I told you I believed in predestination and election.

Do you have any that support the Calvinist version?

 

[Rick Otto]

Foreknowledge doesn't equate with Foreordination, it is a result of foreordination. It(4-ordination) is also called determinate council:
Ac 2:23 - Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Cool, huh?

 

[Ben johnson]

Foreknowledge doesn't equate with Foreordination, it is a result of foreordination. It(4-ordination) is also called determinate council:
Ac 2:23 - Him, being delivered by the determinate counsel and foreknowledge of God, ye have taken, and by wicked hands have crucified and slain:
Cool, huh?

Hmmm; was Jesus "fore-ordained"? Yup. Peter agrees, 1:1:20. But nowhere are Humans "fore-ordained to eternal life"...

 

[frumanchu]

Hmmm; was Jesus "fore-ordained"? Yup. Peter agrees, 1:1:20. But nowhere are Humans "fore-ordained to eternal life"...

"These will make war with the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for He is Lord of lords and King of kings; and those who are with Him are called, chosen, and faithful." Rev 17:14


"And unless the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake, whom He chose, He shortened the days." Mark 13:20


"... knowing, beloved brethren, your election by God." 1 Thess 1:4


"But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth, to which He called you by our gospel, for the obtaining of the glory of our Lord Jesus Christ." 2 Thess 2:13

No matter how you try to twist it, you cannot make the object of choosing in the above Scriptures be anything but individuals without doing radical violence to the Word of God.

There is indeed a corporate aspect to election, but it is not at the exclusion of the individual. Anyone saying otherwise is not preaching the truth of the Word.

 

[themuzicman]

Well, that assumes individual rather than corporate election.

Muz

 

[themuzicman]

How to refute Calvinism?

You do good, conservative exegesis like this:
http://www.christianforums.com/t5477845-romans-9.html

 

[Rick Otto]

Well, that assumes individual rather than corporate election.

Muz

The corporation you speak of is composed of individuals.
To speak of the whole is inclusive of the individual parts.

You are not speaking of the corporate unless you are speaking of all of its individual constituents.

 

[themuzicman]

The corporation you speak of is composed of individuals.
To speak of the whole is inclusive of the individual parts.

You are not speaking of the corporate unless you are speaking of all of its individual constituents.

But the individuals who comprise the group need not be selected individually, but may fulfill certain requirements, and having those requirements in common, are elected as a group.

Muz