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Thekla
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could the term "apostasy" be used if they did not believe in the first place ?
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could the term "apostasy" be used if they did not believe in the first place ?well put bro , Ben is doing the usual straw man , if it were true as he puts it here
then how could James speak of none salvivic faith , and how could false brethren apostacize ?
could the term "apostasy" be used if they did not believe in the first place ?
although Paul seems to say frequently that belief must be "kept", and that we must persevere to the end. In this light, apostacy is not unlike blasphemy, or at least heresy. Apostacy, IIRC, was originally a military term - applied to deserters. One cannot desert what one has never been.no !
believing for a season is possible , tempory faith is possible Lk 8:13 , the devils believe and tremble.
Apostacy is when a person has obtained certain things from the Gospel , even a position of office in the Church (JUDAS) but who's hearts are unchanged and not "sealed by the Holy spirit" against loss .
remember Christ spoke of keeping all His disciples except one , Judas.
here we might expect only that Christ would say I kept 11 but the other disciple lost himself or lost his own salvation , instead Christ Himself says he lost him , Judas , to fulfil scripture .... how do we know that Judas was a reprobate ? because of his actions and because Christ called him a "devil" .
Man naturally hates holiness, always flees from God; he is morally depraved and his heart is darkened.
...yet, there are those who "receive the word with JOY and BELIEVE". Luke8:13
You will say "they were not REALLY believing, because they FELL to temptation/persecution/affliction".
But --- how can "holiness-hating, morally-darkened, GOD-FLEEING man", receive the word with JOY and BELIEVE???
There is no difference in Jesus' words, between the BEGINNING belief of those in Lk8:13, and the beginning belief of those in Lk8:15. It is how they ended that matters.
The difference --- is that the second, "received the word with an honest heart, and HELD FAST and bore fruit with perseverance".
Not that "God decided anything"....
although Paul seems to say frequently that belief must be "kept", and that we must persevere to the end. In this light, apostacy is not unlike blasphemy, or at least heresy. Apostacy, IIRC, was originally a military term - applied to deserters. One cannot desert what one has never been.
and neither can one be lost who is saved , Christ often said he kept safe all his flock , except that devil Judas.
Apostacy is from the faith it is not from the new nature , for that which is born of God overcomes the world .... who is keeping you this day from the fires of hell ?
I guess I need help understanding some 'distinctions'.
"Saved" is not accomplished - in my understanding- until the "race is finished", and the Judge has 'spoken'; ie after death.
keep in mind that scripture speaks of salvation in three distinct tenses ;
we are saved
we are being saved
we shall be saved
Salvation as already achieved: "When the kindness of God our Saviour, and his love towards man, appeared, not by works done in righteousness, which we did ourselves, but according to his mercy he saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, which he poured out upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour; that, being justified by his grace, we might be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life" (Titus 3:4-7).
- Salvation as an on-going process: "To us who are being saved, (the word of the cross) is the power of God" (1 Corinthians 1:18). The original text of this passage in Greek has present-tense σῳζομένοις (being saved), not perfect-tense σεσῳσμένοις (having been saved) or past-tense (aorist-tense) σῳθεῖσιν (saved); ambiguous translations such as "us which are saved" (KJV) cover up this fact.
- Salvation as yet to be obtained: "Since, therefore, we are now justified by (Christ's) blood, much more shall we be saved by him from the wrath of God" (Romans 5:9).
saved is from God's viewpoint a done deal , all the elect are saved , they have been reconciled to God and delivered from their sin , this does not mean their salvation is regardless of faith , we are also being saved by faith and if we persevere till the end we shall be saved - this may sound confusing but God sees it all as one , for time is not to the Lord as it is to us , reality is somewhat different also.
Maybe you could describe the distinction between faith/new nature. ?
sure , the new nature is a new creation within , whereby we are newly born with new desires and a living unity with Christ , before we were united only by being in Him , now we have a unity that is a communion.
Saving Faith is one of those new desires , we trust on Christ , whereas others may give ascent to the truth only with no trust at all. see James
As for the fires of Hell, I'm not dead yet
no but are you denying God preseveres you in this life and ignores you in the next , or He preserves your mortal body daily but couldn't be bothered with preserving your soul !
Cygnus said:WHAT TRANSLATION IS THAT?
.Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament said:For therein (gar en autwi). In the gospel (verse Romans 16) of which Paul is not ashamed. A righteousness of God (dikaiosunh qeou). Subjective genitive, "a God kind of righteousness," one that each must have and can obtain in no other way save "from faith unto faith" (ek pistewߠeiߠpistin), faith the starting point and faith the goal (Lightfoot).
Excellent point. This reminds me of James5:19-20. "Brethren, if any among you wander away from the truth, and another leads him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his way has saved a soul from death and covered a multitude of sins."Thekla said:could the term "apostasy" be used if they did not believe in the first place ?
Absolutely. There is no avoiding Eph2:5-8; WHEN we were dead in sins God made us alive ...by grace through faith.Vekarppe said:So "holiness-hating, morally-darkened, God-fleeing" man can turn towards God, and cooperate with the Spirit of holiness, without that his "holiness-hating, morally-darkened, God-fleeing" nature is first changed by God?
That's correct; that's why Calvinists are forced to consider Lk8:13 people as "UNSAVED".Calvinism asserts that man cannot believe because man is morally depraved, that is, man is not willing to come.
Absolutely. There is no avoiding Eph2:5-8; WHEN we were dead in sins God made us alive ...by grace through faith.
By the universal CALL to salvation, depraved man CAN believe.
That's correct; that's why Calvinists are forced to consider Lk8:13 people as "UNSAVED".
They received the word with JOY and believed --- but Calvinists assert "it was FALSE belief, they were only PROFESSING but not really saved in their HEARTS --- evidenced by their later FALLING to temptation/affliction/persecution.
Therefore Calvinists can NEVER know if they are "truly-elect", or only "falsely-believing", until AFTER they prove that they are elect, by "not falling".
That is, WHEN they DIE.
A Calvinist cannot know he is "truly elect", until the moment he dies. See the problem?
In John 6:67-70 --- many of the disciples were leaving. Jesus turned to the twelve, and said:Cygnus said:and neither can one be lost who is saved, Christ often said he kept safe all his flock , except that devil Judas.
We can "apostacize from faith", but "still be saved"?Apostacy is from the faith it is not from the new nature, for that which is born of God overcomes the world .... who is keeping you this day from the fires of hell?
How can you believe that?Cygnus said:do me a favour ben , cease from spreading falsehoods about your brethren's beliefs!
that's right, Calvinists also believe in assurance of salvation, ben !
If those people exhibitted "joyful belief", but their FALLING proved they were "not elect", then how can any Calvinist know he is "truly elect" (and will persevere until death), or only FALSELY (joyfully) believing which WILL be evidence by their FALLING at some time before they die?
I will appreciate if you would explain that to me.
If those people exhibitted "joyful belief", but their FALLING proved they were "not elect", then how can any Calvinist know he is "truly elect" (and will persevere until death), or only FALSELY (joyfully) believing which WILL be evidence by their FALLING at some time before they die?
I will appreciate if you would explain that to me.
Because unregenerated men CAN believe savingly in Jesus. Nothing in Scripture opposes that.
The point, is that first Calvinism asserts "totally depraved men cannot believe in any measure; they are committed to rebellion, they hate God."
Then, in light of verses like Lk8:13, it's asserted "they CAN believe, but it's only superficial "professing"; they don't really believe SAVINGLY." This doesn't explain the "joy".
Nothing in the text indicates they didn't begin "believing savingly".
But persecution/affliction/temtation, caused them to fall.
Heb6:7-8 is the perfect connection; the consequence is determined by their fruit. Calvinism claims the reverse --- "consequence" (blessing or curse, "good soil" or "bad soil"), determines the fruit (falling, or steadfastness).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Cygnus
WHAT TRANSLATION IS THAT?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Robertson's Word Pictures of the New Testament
For therein (gar en autwi). In the gospel (verse Romans 16) of which Paul is not ashamed. A righteousness of God (dikaiosunh qeou). Subjective genitive, "a God kind of righteousness," one that each must have and can obtain in no other way save "from faith unto faith" (ek pistewߠeiߠpistin), faith the starting point and faith the goal (Lightfoot).
.
Read the whole passage (2:1-10), and you will see the real picture.
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