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It doesn't. It reads "with his heart," not "from his heart." And as it says earlier, "The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart," thus the belief is not coming from a heart which is isolated from the work of God: the word implanted.
Actually I admit it ....I love Ben's postsben is the most popular guy in soterilogy , men are queuing up for an audience !
2Thess3:2. Does it say why "not all men have faith"? In 2Tim2, Paul discusses how "if we have died with Him, we shall also live with Him; if we endure, we shall also reign with him; if we DENY Him, He will deny us; if we are faithless, He remains faithful, for he cannot deny Himself."Cygnus said:SCRIPTURE IS CLEAR , ALL MEN DO NOT HAVE FAITH...
But not asserted in Scripture...it doesn't say all men do not exercise their self-made faith, it simply states "all men have not faith" so a gift a grant is perfectly biblical and logical...
Throughout Scripture, "YOUR faith has saved you", is the norm...also , remember who thanks someone for something that they didn't give , but thanksgiving for men's faith is a NewTestament norm
How do you read 2Cor7:6ff? Paul rejoices that his words made the Corinthians sorrowful; not at their sorrow, but that the sorrow was to the point of REPENTANCE.2 Thessalonians 1:3
Paul’s epistles overflow with this spirit. He thanks God for the faith of the church in Rome which was being proclaimed throughout the whole earth (Rom. 1:8). He thanks God for how the church at Philippi was participating in the Gospel “from the first day until now” (Phil. 1:3-5). He thanks God for the faith, love and hope which was being evidenced in the church at Colossae (Col. 1:3-5). He thanks God for his dear brother, Philemon, who demonstrated refreshing love toward his brethren (Philemon 4-7). In the two letters to the young church at Thessalonica, his heart bursts in thanks to God for their faith, love, and hope (1:2,3- both epistles), for their acceptance of the Word as the Word of God (2:13), for their firm stand in the Lord (3:9), and for their being chosen of God for salvation (II Th. 2:13).
it does ??????? then everyone who hears the good news is saved !!!!!!!! [/quote]Why is it that you cannot consider "conscious thought"? Men choose --- God, belief --- or sin and disbelief.Cygnus said:Ben said:Consider that the universal call TO salvation, has sufficient power to OVERCOME depravity.
Cite the passage. I'm thinking Rom9:32-33 --- and the reason is clearly stated:explain why the Gospel can then be called a stumblingblock, to make men fall ......
Who were called? Everyone. Who were chosen? Those who came --- and clothed themselves. Where is the "reversing"?yes , a clear distiinction is being drawn , hence the "but".
everyone here reading this can see just how intolerable scripture is to ben and how he has to change it , blatantly reversing what scripture says without even so much as a blush! where does it say that .........."but few are (those who chose to come and wear clean clothes) chosen" ?
May you have a safe flight, and may the person you sit next to turn to you and ask, "Say, do you know anything about this Jesus stuff?"NBF said:Reply to these falsehoods will have to wait until I'm back home. I''m flying today, from California, where I've been all week, back to Ohio. I'll try to pick up on this Sunday or Monday.
Man naturally hates holiness, always flees from God; he is morally depraved and his heart is darkened.Vekarppe said:Ben johnson,
I gave my answer. Being separated from God, the mankind became morally depraved and was enslaved under sin; our "hearts were darkened." Maybe it is not wrong to say, that in this state man hates holiness, why he also flee from God. Surely we still have free will, but our decisions are "determined by what we are and by what we desire", as R. C. Sproul said. We are free to do as we will, but we are not free, however, to choose or select our nature.
We've established there are "different kinds of faith". The fruit of the Spirit comes to those who walk by the Spirit. Verse 16.RickOtto said:You already accepted it for the sake of truth not discussion, Ben:
Ga 5:22 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
Saving-faith, is.That is a different issue. Let's concentrate on reaffirming your recognition that faith is not of ourselves, shall we?
We'd hate for that to happen....That way, our discussions won't get unreal.
Uhm, was that English?I don't think so. I think our difference is in perceiving wherefrom we get.
"Grace is to all"? You're coming around to my side, brother.Only in the case of saving grace. The grace of providence is to all.
Huh-uh. Verses like 1Jn2:2 very clearly use "holos kosmos", meaning "all the world".Only as opposed to savior of just Jews.
All kinds of men, not just Jews.
You haven't established that. The "fruit of faith" in Gal5:22, comes to those who WALK by the Spirit 5:16.Yes, with faith which we agree is the fruit of an already resident Holy Spirit.
"God is well-pleased, THROUGH the foolishness of the message preached, to save those who believe.That is foolishness. It is foolish only to those who perish!
Still ignoring verse 12; the "spiritual-things" of verse 14, are the same "spiritual-things" of verse 12 --- which in verse 12 are revealed by the RECEIVED Spirit.1Co 1:18 - For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God. 1Co 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
You did here; good job.Yes I have. Repeatedly.
Huh-uh; look at Heb11:6 --- God receives the faith of those who come, who seek.Whatever, all given by God.
With his heart, he believes; Rom6:17 says "from the heart you became obedient". Shall we argue conjunctions?Rom 10:10: For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.
With the heart, not from the heart.
That's true, it doesn't it establishes them. Jesus rebukes them TOWARDS belief. His speach (John5:39-47) makes absolutely no sense under a "predestined paradigm".Doesn't change the facts.
You haven't established that in Scripture...Whatever. Doesn't change the fact that faith is a fruit of The Spirit, not of ourselves.
Gal5:16.Ok:
Ga 5:22 - But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
1Cor2:12.1Co 2:14 - But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.
Yes, it is; "WHEN we were dead in sins ("natural man"!) God made us alive ...by grace through faith"...Faith is a thing of the Spirit of God that natural man receiveth not, Ben.
If I am your brother, it is a privilege.Welcom to the Reformed Faith, brother.
You are finally Calvinist.
Have you read the rest of Jeremiah 17? He writes:SavedByGrace57 said:ben says
Quote:
SAVING-faith --- comes from men's hearts (Rom10:10), comes from wisdom by studying the Scripture (2Tim3:16),
Jer 17
The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?
So how can a unrenewed heart study scripture to salvation ? let alone believe on christ..
May my words only bring glory and honor and praise to Christ whom we serve.Cygnus said:ben is the most popular guy in soterilogy , men are queuing up for an audience !
Yes, I can!Vekarppe said:Can you give answer to that.Ben johnson said:But --- how can "holiness-hating, morally-darkened, GOD-FLEEING man", receive the word with JOY and BELIEVE???
Rom1:17 says "The righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith, to ENDING faith --- the just shall live by faith."Ben said:Their beginning beliefs, were the same. It was how they ended that made the difference.
Yes, I can!
Their beginning beliefs, were the same. It was how they ended that made the difference.
One succumbed to "temptation/affliction/persecution".
The other "received it with an honest and good heart, held fast and bore fruit with perseverance.
Identically, as Heb6:7-8 says; one field, tilled. IF it brings forth GOOD fruit, it is blessed --- but IF it brings thorns and thistles, it is cursed and burned.
The tilling does not determine the blessing or the curse; the fruit does.
Rom1:17 says "The righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith, to ENDING faith --- the just shall live by faith."
Beginning faith --- "faith the start".
Ending faith --- "faith the goal".
Anyone ever done a word-search on "steadfast"? Interesting results...
Because unregenerated men CAN believe savingly in Jesus. Nothing in Scripture opposes that.Vekarppe said:This does not answer to the question, how can "holiness-hating, morally-darkened, GOD-FLEEING man", receive the word with JOY and BELIEVE???"
Because unregenerated men CAN believe savingly in Jesus. Nothing in Scripture opposes that.
The point, is that first Calvinism asserts "totally depraved men cannot believe in any measure; they are committed to rebellion, they hate God."
So "holiness-hating, morally-darkened, God-fleeing" man can turn towards God, and cooperate with the Spirit of holiness, without that his "holiness-hating, morally-darkened, God-fleeing" nature is first changed by God?
Calvinism assert that man cannot believe because man is morally depraved, that is, man is not willing to come.
The point, is that first Calvinism asserts "totally depraved men cannot believe in any measure; they are committed to rebellion, they hate God."
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