How some creationists pushed me away from christianity

Oncedeceived · Jul 25, 2011

MoonLancer said:
Not in those exact words. Theist makes a claim of knowledge. I ask them to demonstrate it. If you cant do that, why are we having this conversation?

[I'm looking for what particular information was divulged by God through your relationship that let you know and understand him.

Perhaps something that is NOT in the bible already. As Christians commonly say that one needs a personal relationship with god to understand him and that simply knowing whats written in the bible is not enough.

/quote]

These are your exact words. I've underlined the significant points of your request. I provided an instance when God through my relationship gave me the knowledge to better understand Him.

No where in your request either by exact wording or implicitly that you wanted the knowledge for yourself. If that is not what you wanted then fine, we are done with the conversation. No problem.

Your anecdotal story did not demonstrate any knowledge of God.

It demonstrated to me that God:
1. controls nature and willfully show that control to a person of faith.
2. That God does indeed want a personal relationship with me.
3. That God does care about even small life questions concerning my life.
4. That God want communication in varying ways with me.

You demonstrated faith and increased belief. You did not demonstrate that you know God anymore then before.

These were things I learned by this experience.

So what did you learn? or did you just read the bible and event reinforced what you already believed?

Both

Relationship. Knowledge. These words have meaning. Dont throw them around so haphazardly as to defeat their very definition.

Relationship:
1 [count] : the way in which two or more people, groups, countries, etc., talk to, behave toward, and deal with each other
2 [count] : a romantic or sexual friendship between two people

3 : the way in which two or more people or things are connected

1 and 2 fit quite nicely.

Knowledge:

1. acquaintance with facts, truths, or principles, as from study or investigation; general erudition: knowledge of many things.

2. familiarity or conversance, as with a particular subject or branch of learning: A knowledge of accounting was necessary for the job.

3. acquaintance or familiarity gained by sight, experience, or report: a knowledge of human nature.

3 fits the best

Cabal · Jul 25, 2011

Paul 5 said:
I like your sleep factor, I wonder,at what point does an individual decide that they can no longer pretend that our intelligently designed world contains no intelligent design? Every where one looks there is intelligent design,yet people have been programned to look at intelligent design and claim that it is not intelligent design for the simple reason that to tell the true could move people toward God,something violently opposed by many in education.

And by many in the ID movement. The Intelligent Designer isn't necessarily the Christian God, dontcha know. Shhh now, you'll blow their cover.

That guy,A. Flew,the noted atheists,finally had enough after decades of pretending that intelligent design did not exist,he said that he now believes in a creator because life is so complex that it could not be any other way.

He went for deism, not theism.

But hey, for some reason theists seem to go ga-ga over the prospect of deism despite their being completely different beliefs.

selfinflikted · Jul 25, 2011

Oncedeceived said:
When you ask for God to give you some affirmation to let you know you are doing the right thing, you wait and see what might come about or if indeed He will "show" you the way.

I asked for the first time to see something specific. So I learned that He cared enough to grant me what I asked.

Does he not care enough for other people when they ask for help and no help is forthcoming?

FrenchyBearpaw · Jul 25, 2011

Paul 5 said:
I like your sleep factor, I wonder,at what point does an individual decide that they can no longer pretend that our intelligently designed world contains no intelligent design? Every where one looks there is intelligent design,yet people have been programned to look at intelligent design and claim that it is not intelligent design for the simple reason that to tell the true could move people toward God,something violently opposed by many in education. That guy,A. Flew,the noted atheists,finally had enough after decades of pretending that intelligent design did not exist,he said that he now believes in a creator because life is so complex that it could not be any other way.

I sleep better than ever.

Oncedeceived · Jul 25, 2011

Skaloop said:
For starters, I am not about to question the importance of this event for you, and I am not going to be saying you are a liar or are making it all up. Please keep that in mind, because I am just going to point out a few areas where I would have some questions, and why.

I appreciate that, especially considering that you know nothing about me. There are people still on here that I think would consider me an honest person but I do thank you for giving me the benefit of the doubt.

I will also give you a heads up as well. When I posted this, I said that it was easy to dismiss. I believe that there was a purpose to sharing it. I think that someone will benefit from this. I think probably there was someone that felt a certain tickle when this information was given. So I'll give you info about this experience and you can take it or leave it. Not being rude in anyway, it is just not important for me to defend my position regarding a personal experience. I am not trying to prove anything, just sharing.

For starters, the initial time the North So that being said, I'll try to answer your questions.

For starters, the initial time the Northern Lights showed up as a sign, you prayed and then "It wasn't long" before you started seeing them. How long? A minute? Ten? Thirty? Because it's been shown that people have a widely varying window on when something happens to consider it linked to something else. Second, you say that the Northern Lights are "pretty rare" in that area. How rare? How often do the Northern Lights show up around there? Once a year? Once every few months? Once a decade? What about in the specific area you were in at the time?

I started seeing a red haze just minutes after praying. I thought that they might be town lights due to the fact that we were on the outskirts of a small town. (leaving)

Rare as in only a few times in the last twenty years or so according to some people in the area. I haven't seen them since then either.

The second time you saw the Northern Lights after praying for them as a sign, again, how soon after praying did it actually happen?

Whoops. I thought that is what you meant above. Approximately the same time.

How soon after you got home did they disappear?

Immediately.

How rare are the Northern Lights in that part of Nebraska?

Rare, like I said above.

Because a quick search on the issue shows that there are a good number of things named after the Northern Lights, from streets to malls, which indicates that they maybe aren't that rare.

No, it is rare.

Other questions I might have are whether you were in a city or out in the country when you were driving back from selling the art. And what sort of area you live in (urban or suburban or rural), the streetlight situation on the streets leading to you home, and the lighting situation in your driveway and around your house. Because the Northern Lights are more visible in the dark of the country than the brightness of the city.

When they started we were heading out of a small town. They continued for the continued ride home. There were only one or two small towns in between. We lived in a horse and buggy town and there were three street lights on the street we lived on.

That's where my questions would come from. The way you tell the story, the implication seems to be that the Northern Lights went away the instant you got home, with the underlying meaning that God ended His sign for you. But how much leeway should be given to the instant when you got home?

They stopped the instant we stopped and shut off the car.

And was it that the Northern Lights went away, or could it be that you arrived at a place of greater light pollution that prevented you from seeing them?

They stopped.

Further questions would be around whether those specific Northern Lights were visible elsewhere around the world that night, whether they coincided with the appropriate sort of sun activity that produces the Northern Lights, and whether they had been predicted beforehand based on that sun activity.

I have no idea.

Oncedeceived · Jul 25, 2011

Simply_Amazing said:
Confirmation bias much?

Believe what you want.

Oncedeceived · Jul 25, 2011

Ar Cosc said:
I asked for signs lots of times. I saw nothing, ever. What does this mean?

I don't know. You are not a believer and do not believe in God so I would take a guess that you really didn't expect one?

Oncedeceived · Jul 25, 2011

Simply_Amazing said:
It means that you just aren't being receptive enough to God's message. Remember, the fault always lies with you.

Consider this, look at how everyone (atheists) are dismissing my experience. If there was an answering sign I really wonder if any one of you would even believe it anyway. Perhaps that is why God doesn't bother. If you ask for a sign and then one is given would you even be willing to accept it as such?

Skaloop · Jul 25, 2011

Paul 5 said:
I like your sleep factor, I wonder,at what point does an individual decide that they can no longer pretend that our intelligently designed world contains no intelligent design? Every where one looks there is intelligent design,yet people have been programned to look at intelligent design and claim that it is not intelligent design for the simple reason that to tell the true could move people toward God,something violently opposed by many in education. That guy,A. Flew,the noted atheists,finally had enough after decades of pretending that intelligent design did not exist,he said that he now believes in a creator because life is so complex that it could not be any other way.

Hardly. At best, if I were being agreeable, I'd concede that everywhere one looks there is appearance of design. Not necessarily design with an intelligence behind it, and not necessarily design at all.

That's why I don't accept the claims of intelligent design; not because of an opposition to God, but because it makes a leap from "that looks like it was designed" to "that was designed by a specific intelligent being known as the God of the Bible." It misses a few steps in between, namely determining whether it was in fact designed, whether that design comes from an intelligent designer, and whether that intelligent designer is God.

Oncedeceived · Jul 25, 2011

selfinflikted said:
Does he not care enough for other people when they ask for help and no help is forthcoming?

I don't know. I don't know why when a believer asks for help that He waits until the very last possible minute before He comes through. How can we really know the mind of God? We can't even know the mind of people we live with, let alone the mind that created the universe we live in. (I am not saying this as a fact I wish to prove by the way). Why did He wait to reveal Himself to me? I don't know that either.

Simply_Amazing · Jul 25, 2011

Oncedeceived said:
Consider this, look at how everyone (atheists) are dismissing my experience. If there was an answering sign I really wonder if any one of you would even believe it anyway. Perhaps that is why God doesn't bother. If you ask for a sign and then one is given would you even be willing to accept it as such?

It's not denial. It's because your "signs" sound remarkably unconvincing. What was your experience again?

Simply_Amazing · Jul 25, 2011

Oncedeceived said:
Believe what you want.

I will. But it's not just because I want to, it's because it's the only rational thing to believe.

Ar Cosc · Jul 25, 2011

Oncedeceived said:
I don't know. You are not a believer and do not believe in God so I would take a guess that you really didn't expect one?

I did believe. I started asking for signs when I began to experience doubts about God's existence, and I really wanted there to be some. None were forthcoming.

Oncedeceived · Jul 25, 2011

Simply_Amazing said:
It's not denial. It's because your "signs" sound remarkably unconvincing. What was your experience again?

Perhaps.

Simply_Amazing · Jul 25, 2011

Oncedeceived said:
Perhaps.

What was your experience again?

(Also, keep in mind that I was also a believer for a number of years. I never received a sign despite asking for one, although that has nothing to do with me no longer being a Christian)

Skaloop · Jul 25, 2011

Oncedeceived said:
Consider this, look at how everyone (atheists) are dismissing my experience. If there was an answering sign I really wonder if any one of you would even believe it anyway. Perhaps that is why God doesn't bother. If you ask for a sign and then one is given would you even be willing to accept it as such?

It depends on the sign. If I just asked for a sign, and then came upon a stop sign as I was driving, I wouldn't really accept that as much. If I asked for a lightning strike on a stormy night, I wouldn't accept that as much of a sign either. If I asked for something more specific and unpredictable, like the Northern Lights to appear in an area they rarely do, that would be more impressive. If, as I was driving home, I asked for the sign to be a message on my voicemail from phone number 604-528-5935 that was a wrong number and the person was looking for Jason, well, that would be mighty impressive if that occurred. And if I do get home today to find a message from that number asking for Jason, I guarantee you it would cause me to do some heavy questioning and soul-searching regarding my beliefs.

Oncedeceived · Jul 25, 2011

Ar Cosc said:
I did believe. I started asking for signs when I began to experience doubts about God's existence, and I really wanted there to be some. None were forthcoming.

I see. Well I certainly understand that. When I first started coming to the forums to "debate" with atheists and non-believers I was very fresh in my faith. The difference with me was that I had already experienced God's reality. So from what you are saying is that you were "wanting to believe" but you didn't know if He was real.

There was a time when I was in the "I believe there is a god", but wanting to believe and knowing are two different things, aren't they? For me, it was a strong desire to actually know if God existed and I asked that He would prove it to me. From the believing to the knowing it was years later. I didn't dictate what He needed to show me but what came after was convincing to me.

When doubts came, I guess I was willing to let God lead me through it and give me the answers.

I don't know if this helps at all, but that was my experience.

Oncedeceived · Jul 25, 2011

Simply_Amazing said:
I will. But it's not just because I want to, it's because it's the only rational thing to believe.

Is it?

Non sequitur · Jul 25, 2011

Oncedeceived said:
I see. Well I certainly understand that. When I first started coming to the forums to "debate" with atheists and non-believers I was very fresh in my faith. The difference with me was that I had already experienced God's reality. So from what you are saying is that you were "wanting to believe" but you didn't know if He was real.

I'm pretty sure he said, "I did believe", you assumed he had not experienced "God's reality", then told him what he knew or didn't know.

Simply_Amazing · Jul 25, 2011

Oncedeceived said:
Is it?

About God? Yes.

How some creationists pushed me away from christianity

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