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How some creationists pushed me away from christianity

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hasone

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First, let me note that I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this post or it's even allowed in these forums in general. If it shouldn't be here, I'd ask a mod to move it to the right forum or delete it.

This is a personal story, and one I think worth telling, but as a personal story when I use any possibly controversial terms such as science, evolution, christianity, decency, or critical thinking the definitions I'm using are mine.

I grew up in an atheist household. Religion wasn't really talked about. Around the time I was graduating high school and starting college, when I was younger and stupider than I even am now, I became really aware of my atheism and my lack of conviction in it. So I set out to explore religion.

When it came to christianity, my exploration became intertwined with the loudest and most evangelical group of christians in my area. They told me that in order to be a christian, I would have to believe that the earth was 6,000 years old, that evolution wasn't science, that the big bang never happened, that basically all of the facts, ideas, and reasoning tools I had grown up adoring must be thrown out. Unsurprisingly, I rejected them instead.

The worst part, the part where my immaturity led me astray, was that I believed them when they told me that they stood for christianity. I believed them when they said there was no compatibility between christianity and what I called critical thinking. And I generalized, more or less, their beliefs to all christians.

This led to some years of my entertaining very silly ideas, wherein I regarded all christians as superstitious fools incapable of a coherent belief system. I've met more reasonable believers since then, and they helped disabuse me of these notions, but none communicated as deep and thorough an integration of science, critical thinking, decency, and christianity as I've learned is possible from reading these boards. I think if my first substantial interaction with evangelism had been with a mature, intelligent theistic evolutionist I could be a christian today. As it stands now, I've reopened the possibility. I don't expect to convert, but if enough questions get answered in a way that resonates with me I may.

That is, of course, unless it is impossible to both believe in strongly supported scientific theories such as evolution and be christian. In that case, I ain't ever getting saved.
 
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FrenchyBearpaw

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First, let me note that I'm not sure if this is the right forum for this post or it's even allowed in these forums in general. If it shouldn't be here, I'd ask a mod to move it to the right forum or delete it.

This is a personal story, and one I think worth telling, but as a personal story when I use any possibly controversial terms such as science, evolution, christianity, decency, or critical thinking the definitions I'm using are mine.

I grew up in an atheist household. Religion wasn't really talked about. Around the time I was graduating high school and starting college, when I was younger and stupider than I even am now, I became really aware of my atheism and my lack of conviction in it. So I set out to explore religion.

When it came to christianity, my exploration became intertwined with the loudest and most evangelical group of christians in my area. They told me that in order to be a christian, I would have to believe that the earth was 6,000 years old, that evolution wasn't science, that the big bang never happened, that basically all of the facts, ideas, and reasoning tools I had grown up adoring must be thrown out. Unsurprisingly, I rejected them instead.

The worst part, the part where my immaturity led me astray, was that I believed them when they told me that they stood for christianity. I believed them when they said there was no compatibility between christianity and what I called critical thinking. And I generalized, more or less, their beliefs to all christians.

This led to some years of my entertaining very silly ideas, wherein I regarded all christians as superstitious fools incapable of a coherent belief system. I've met more reasonable believers since then, and they helped disabuse me of these notions, but none communicated as deep and thorough an integration of science, critical thinking, decency, and christianity as I've learned is possible from reading these boards. I think if my first substantial interaction with evangelism had been with a mature, intelligent theistic evolutionist I could be a christian today. As it stands now, I've reopened the possibility. I don't expect to convert, but if enough questions get answered in a way that resonates with me I may.

That is, of course, unless it is impossible to both believe in strongly supported scientific theories such as evolution and be christian. In that case, I ain't ever getting saved.
I think your experience encapsulates what many have gone through. This is the crux of any faith, that is, how much cognitive dissonance is one willing to accept before they are unable to sleep at night. It is my contention, that if a supernatural being exists, and is responsible for everything in existence, then our account of it shouldn't contradict reality.
 
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Mr. Pedantic

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I find your story interesting, because there are groups like the one you describe on both sides of the fence in regards to theist/atheist, as well as within different religions. And it is ironic that they don't see the harm they are doing to their respective movements purely through their extreme beliefs. Especially since it is these groups that cry the loudest, and therefore it is these groups that are heard the most.

The worst part, the part where my immaturity led me astray, was that I believed them when they told me that they stood for christianity. I believed them when they said there was no compatibility between christianity and what I called critical thinking. And I generalized, more or less, their beliefs to all christians.
It is interesting that here you make a logical fallacy of hasty generalization.
 
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AV1611VET

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That is, of course, unless it is impossible to both believe in strongly supported scientific theories such as evolution and be christian. In that case, I ain't ever getting saved.
Any theistic evolutionists around here to lead this person to Christ?
 
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Phred

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Any theistic evolutionists around here to lead this person to Christ?
There's a lot more than just believing that a god directed evolution. You also have to somehow get around believing in a soul, believing in a being that would be the most complicated thing in the universe and yet there's not a lick of evidence to suggest it exists, you have to somehow figure out HOW a god directs evolution or anything for that matter. Just saying that it did it isn't good enough. HOW? What process?

No... you don't lead a skeptic to believe in magic without proving magic happens.
 
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AV1611VET

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There's a lot more than just believing that a god directed evolution. You also have to somehow get around believing in a soul, believing in a being that would be the most complicated thing in the universe and yet there's not a lick of evidence to suggest it exists, you have to somehow figure out HOW a god directs evolution or anything for that matter. Just saying that it did it isn't good enough. HOW? What process?

No... you don't lead a skeptic to believe in magic without proving magic happens.
Why are you telling me this? tell the op, if you're going to tell anyone at all.
 
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J

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a mature, intelligent theistic evolutionist
Most Christians are theistic evolutionists, they just do not want to admit it. As far as an intelligent theist evo, that does not seem to be happening. Books have been written, the attempt has been made. But right now there does not seem to be a marriage between science and religion. In fact Christians are called to seperate themselves and to come out from among them. Science is just not accurate enough and it is constantly changing. The Bible is consistant, steadfast and very accurate. There is no conflict. Science is an outstanding tool to show us that the Bible itself is accurate and true. But as you pointed out, Science also shows us that peoples understanding of the Bible can leave a lot to be desired.
 
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Jazer

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Any theistic evolutionists around here to lead this person to Christ?
It was actually God that lead me to Christ. I was seeking God, He lead me to Christ, Christ lead me to the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit lead me back to Christ and Christ lead me back to God. I started to learn about about God. People say that man invented God and maybe that is all they know is what man has invented. They have not yet learned anything about God and what He is all about.
 
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J

Jazer

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It is my contention, that if a supernatural being exists, and is responsible for everything in existence, then our account of it shouldn't contradict reality.
Where is the contradiction? If people would just read the Bible for themselves and pray for God to help them understand everything would be fine. The problem is when we go to man for understanding when we should go directly to God.
 
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MoonLancer

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It was actually God that lead me to Christ. I was seeking God, He lead me to Christ, Christ lead me to the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit lead me back to Christ and Christ lead me back to God. I started to learn about about God. People say that man invented God and maybe that is all they know is what man has invented. They have not yet learned anything about God and what He is all about.
i hear this a lot but the reality is even simple questions about God directed at the people who claim to know him end up failing spectacularly.

and in addition people who say they know god cant agree on what they know about God.
 
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Doveaman

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I think if my first substantial interaction with evangelism had been with a mature, intelligent theistic evolutionist I could be a christian today.
Is it possible to be a mature, intelligent Christian without being an evolutionist?

FYI, none of the authors of the Bible were "mature, intelligent theistic evolutionist", and every Christian on the planet today are believers because of what those authors taught.
 
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Notedstrangeperson

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Doveman said:
FYI, none of the authors of the Bible were "mature, intelligent theistic evolutionist", and every Christian on the planet today are believers because of what those authors taught.
Because when the Bible was written there was no credible theory of evolution. They all probably believed the sun revolved about the Earth too.
 
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Doveaman

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It is my contention, that if a supernatural being exists, and is responsible for everything in existence, then our account of it shouldn't contradict reality.
It is my contention that scientific theories often contradict reality and this is why they are often falsified.
 
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FrenchyBearpaw

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Is it possible to be a mature, intelligent Christian without being an evolutionist?

FYI, none of the authors of the Bible were "mature, intelligent theistic evolutionist", and every Christian on the planet today are believers because of what those authors taught.
How can you make this claim when we don't even know who authored the Gospels.
 
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Phred

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It was actually God that lead me to Christ. I was seeking God, He lead me to Christ, Christ lead me to the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit lead me back to Christ and Christ lead me back to God. I started to learn about about God. People say that man invented God and maybe that is all they know is what man has invented. They have not yet learned anything about God and what He is all about.
You invent the god you need.
 
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Phred

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Where is the contradiction? If people would just read the Bible for themselves and pray for God to help them understand everything would be fine. The problem is when we go to man for understanding when we should go directly to God.
For one, everything in the universe goes from simple to complex. Everything that is but your god and the explanations of how your god created the universe. They violate this observable progression of simple to complex. Two. The notion that this deity would know everything. That would require several universes worth of data storage banks to keep all the data about all of the universe and it's present, past and future states. Not possible. Also this data could not be accessed in any sort of reasonable time. Three. This deity cannot be everywhere. There's simply no way it can, say, observe that sparrow without having some sort of mechanism to observe WITH. Where is this mechanism? How does it report back? And where are all the trillions upon trillions of "eyes" that must exist in order to observe everything at the same time? You can't just say it does and assume it happens. It doesn't work that way. The contradictions go on and on and on... The god described by the Bible simply cannot exist.
 
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