How similar are Reformed and Presbyterian Churches?

[RileyG]

What do they teach? What are the basic tenants?

Thanks!

RileyG

 

[bbbbbbb]

There is a surprising amount of diversity among the various Reformed and Presbyterian bodies, but now and throughout their history. They seem to be a fairly contentious group of folks. As an example, the history of the Church of Scotland and its many variants, all of which are Presbyterian, makes for enlightening, if somewhat tedious, reading.

Today you will find Reformed as well as Presbyterian Christians who range from very traditional Calvinists to Universalists and even toward the atheistic end of the spectrum. You might enjoy an internet search on the many denominations which contain "Presbyterian" or "Reformed" in their names.

 

[RileyG]

There is a surprising amount of diversity among the various Reformed and Presbyterian bodies, but now and throughout their history. They seem to be a fairly contentious group of folks. As an example, the history of the Church of Scotland and its many variants, all of which are Presbyterian, makes for enlightening, if somewhat tedious, reading.

Today you will find Reformed as well as Presbyterian Christians who range from very traditional Calvinists to Universalists and even toward the atheistic end of the spectrum. You might enjoy an internet search on the many denominations which contain "Presbyterian" or "Reformed" in their names.

Thanks for your response! I did not know there were some atheistic Calvinists. interesting

 

[bbbbbbb]

Thanks for your response! I did not know there were some atheistic Calvinists. interesting

Actually, they would not self-identify as Calvinists any more than an atheistic member of the Catholic Church would identify necessarily as being Catholic. They would probably identify as being progressive or liberal in their theology in addition to being members of the Reformed or Presbyterian Church.

 

[Mark Quayle]

Actually, they would not self-identify as Calvinists any more than an atheistic member of the Catholic Church would identify necessarily as being Catholic. They would probably identify as being progressive or liberal in their theology in addition to being members of the Reformed or Presbyterian Church.

Who?, calls them atheistic? Or, what?, specifically, do they believe, that merits the handle, "atheistic", if they are Reformed?

 

[bbbbbbb]

Who?, calls them atheistic? Or, what?, specifically, do they believe, that merits the handle, "atheistic", if they are Reformed?

I suppose most would identify them as more likely agnostic. I distinctly remember a sermon I heard on Easter Sunday in a large Presbyterian church in which the minister spoke concerning the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He compared it with the story of Camelot. He expressed his opinion that, like Camelot, which is known to be a myth with little historical basis, the resurrection of Jesus Christ is similar - a myth with little historical basis. His conclusion was that we all need some sort of belief system to provide meaning for our lives. The myth of Camelot is just as valid as that of the Christian myth. Interestingly, there was not a murmur from the full congregation.

Now, whether the man was atheist or agnostic is a moot point. He did not state point blank that he was either one. However, it was quite clear that he had no misgivings in assaulting the core belief of Christianity.

 

[tampasteve]

OK, let us get one thing straight, there are members of the laity and even clergy of essentially all denominations that would fall on the spectrum of "Agnostic" or otherwise, but I would not at all say that it is common among any denomination at large - and certainly not Reformed and Presbyterian. We can always find outliers in any denomination.

Back to the OP, it is a diverse group. Speaking broadly, most Presbyterians are also Reformed, and Reformed is broad spectrum as it is.

Presbyterianism is really about church polity, not a necessary belief system. Presbyterianism is in contrast to episcopal and congregational polity. Now, that said, there are also both Reformed churches that are episcopal or congregational - so Reformed can be in any of the church polities. Some Anglican churches and provinces are Reformed, and there are many congregational churches that are Reformed.

So, in general, Reformed is the belief system, Presbyterian is a polity. But most Presbyterians are also Reformed.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I suppose most would identify them as more likely agnostic. I distinctly remember a sermon I heard on Easter Sunday in a large Presbyterian church in which the minister spoke concerning the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He compared it with the story of Camelot. He expressed his opinion that, like Camelot, which is known to be a myth with little historical basis, the resurrection of Jesus Christ is similar - a myth with little historical basis. His conclusion was that we all need some sort of belief system to provide meaning for our lives. The myth of Camelot is just as valid as that of the Christian myth. Interestingly, there was not a murmur from the full congregation.

Now, whether the man was atheist or agnostic is a moot point. He did not state point blank that he was either one. However, it was quite clear that he had no misgivings in assaulting the core belief of Christianity.

I guess my question is, what makes you say he was a Calvinist or Reformed, then?
Carrying the label, "Presbyterian", doesn't make one Reformed any more than the label,
"Baptist" does.

 

[Mark Quayle]

I suppose most would identify them as more likely agnostic. I distinctly remember a sermon I heard on Easter Sunday in a large Presbyterian church in which the minister spoke concerning the resurrection of Jesus Christ. He compared it with the story of Camelot. He expressed his opinion that, like Camelot, which is known to be a myth with little historical basis, the resurrection of Jesus Christ is similar - a myth with little historical basis. His conclusion was that we all need some sort of belief system to provide meaning for our lives. The myth of Camelot is just as valid as that of the Christian myth. Interestingly, there was not a murmur from the full congregation.

Now, whether the man was atheist or agnostic is a moot point. He did not state point blank that he was either one. However, it was quite clear that he had no misgivings in assaulting the core belief of Christianity.

Must have been PCUSA, not PCA. That is not Reformed.

 

[bbbbbbb]

OK, let us get one thing straight, there are members of the laity and even clergy of essentially all denominations that would fall on the spectrum of "Agnostic" or otherwise, but I would not at all say that it is common among any denomination at large - and certainly not Reformed and Presbyterian. We can always find outliers in any denomination.

Back to the OP, it is a diverse group. Speaking broadly, most Presbyterians are also Reformed, and Reformed is broad spectrum as it is.

Presbyterianism is really about church polity, not a necessary belief system. Presbyterianism is in contrast to episcopal and congregational polity. Now, that said, there are also both Reformed churches that are episcopal or congregational - so Reformed can be in any of the church polities. Some Anglican churches and provinces are Reformed, and there are many congregational churches that are Reformed.

So, in general, Reformed is the belief system, Presbyterian is a polity. But most Presbyterians are also Reformed.

True enough, although it does become problematic when the ministers of one of the liberal branches of Presbyterianism, not to mention the seminaries who are training these ministers, are "outliers" (i.e. agnostics or even atheists). It is one thing for a cradle member of any denomination to secretly hold unorthodox theology (relative to the denomination's historic theology) and quite another for the denomination to promote this theology through its ministers and seminaries. The sad reality is that the diversity among Reformed denominations, including the Presbyterians, now ranges from various types of neo-Calvinism through historic Calvinism all the way to universalism and agnosticism.

 

[tampasteve]

True enough, although it does become problematic when the ministers of one of the liberal branches of Presbyterianism, not to mention the seminaries who are training these ministers, are "outliers" (i.e. agnostics or even atheists). It is one thing for a cradle member of any denomination to secretly hold unorthodox theology (relative to the denomination's historic theology) and quite another for the denomination to promote this theology through its ministers and seminaries. The sad reality is that the diversity among Reformed denominations, including the Presbyterians, now ranges from various types of neo-Calvinism through historic Calvinism all the way to universalism and agnosticism.

Yeah, but that is everywhere - sadly. We see the exact same issues in the Lutheran denominations, Anglican communion, Methodists, and even the RCC. The diversity in the Reformed churches is not what causes those issues.

Friendly reminder, this is the Reformed Faith Community, so there are limits to the debate we can have as you are not labeled as "Reformed" or similar denomination that may be Reformed.

 

[RileyG]

OK, let us get one thing straight, there are members of the laity and even clergy of essentially all denominations that would fall on the spectrum of "Agnostic" or otherwise, but I would not at all say that it is common among any denomination at large - and certainly not Reformed and Presbyterian. We can always find outliers in any denomination.

Back to the OP, it is a diverse group. Speaking broadly, most Presbyterians are also Reformed, and Reformed is broad spectrum as it is.

Presbyterianism is really about church polity, not a necessary belief system. Presbyterianism is in contrast to episcopal and congregational polity. Now, that said, there are also both Reformed churches that are episcopal or congregational - so Reformed can be in any of the church polities. Some Anglican churches and provinces are Reformed, and there are many congregational churches that are Reformed.

So, in general, Reformed is the belief system, Presbyterian is a polity. But most Presbyterians are also Reformed.

Thanks for the clarification!

 

[RileyG]

Must have been PCUSA, not PCA. That is not Reformed.

What about the Orthodox Presbyterian Church? Are they extremely conservative? PCA is conservative and PCUSA is liberal? Are there other schisms/divisions?

 

[RileyG]

So they are diverse. Got it.

 

[tampasteve]

What about the Orthodox Presbyterian Church? Are they extremely conservative? PCA is conservative and PCUSA is liberal? Are there other schisms/divisions?

There are different Presbyterian denominations in the USA. The main Presbyterian denominations in the USA are (from most conservative to most liberal):
Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Presbyterian Church in America (PCA)
Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC) - my church home.
Presbyterian Church USA (PCUSA)

PCUSA is far more liberal than the EPC, but anything in-between (on a liberalness scale) would be a pretty small denomination. Schism would not really be the best word, they don't hold significant doctrinal differences, it is mostly a cultural and worship difference between the OPC and PCA. The EPC is more big tent with some specifics left to the churches and not the denomination (female pastors for example), but the essentials agreed upon.

Aside from the Presbyterian denominations which are generally "reformed" there are a number of Reformed denominations that are more congregationalist in polity, as well as Reformed Baptists.

 

[RileyG]

There are different Presbyterian denominations in the USA. The main Presbyterian denominations in the USA are (from most conservative to most liberal):
Orthodox Presbyterian Church (OPC)
Presbyterian Church in America (PCA)
Evangelical Presbyterian Church (EPC) - my church home.
Presbyterian Church USA (PCUSA)

PCUSA is far more liberal than the EPC, but anything in-between (on a liberalness scale) would be a pretty small denomination. Schism would not really be the best word, they don't hold significant doctrinal differences, it is mostly a cultural and worship difference between the OPC and PCA. The EPC is more big tent with some specifics left to the churches and not the denomination (female pastors for example), but the essentials agreed upon.

Aside from the Presbyterian denominations which are generally "reformed" there are a number of Reformed denominations that are more congregationalist in polity, as well as Reformed Baptists.

Thank you for the response! It is appreciated! I've never heard of the Evangelical Presbyterian Church, but I've heard of the rest.

 

[JM]

Similarities and differences easy seen here.

Tabular Comparison of 1646 WCF and 1689 LBCF

 

[RileyG]

Similarities and differences easy seen here.

Tabular Comparison of 1646 WCF and 1689 LBCF

Bookmarked! Thanks!