How should we read Paul?

[Extraneous]

Isaiah 30:1 “Woe to the rebellious children,” says the Lord,
“Who take counsel, but not of Me,
And who devise plans, but not of My Spirit,
That they may add sin to sin;
2 Who walk to go down to Egypt,
And have not asked My advice,
To strengthen themselves in the strength of Pharaoh,
And to trust in the shadow of Egypt!

10 Who say to the seers, “Do not see,”
And to the prophets, “Do not prophesy to us right things;
Speak to us smooth things, prophesy deceits


2 Timothy 4:3 For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine, but according to their own desires, because they have itching ears, they will heap up for themselves teachers;

 

[Righttruth]

No, it's not. In fact, it's quite the opposite. Rituals =/= faith. That statement is nothing short of ludicrous.

Your mathematical symbol appears to be wacky!

Do you know what it means to bear fruit? Bearing fruit is evidence of your faith, not vice versa.

You are trying to pass the buck to Jesus. Read these verses carefully:
John 15:
1 "I am the true vine, and My Father is the vinedresser.
2 "Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit, He takes away; and every branch that bears fruit, He prunes it so that it may bear more fruit.
3 "You are already clean because of the word which I have spoken to you.
4 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you unless you abide in Me.
5 "I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me and I in him, he bears much fruit, for apart from Me you can do nothing.
6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire and they are burned.
7 "If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you.
8 "My Father is glorified by this, that you bear much fruit, and so prove to be My disciples.
9 "Just as the Father has loved Me, I have also loved you; abide in My love.
10 "If you keep My commandments, you will abide in My love; just as I have kept My Father's commandments and abide in His love.

Abiding in Him is a must, but we should bear fruit. People are abiding in the words of Paul who had never understood the essence of the message of Jesus.

No, God deals justly and graciously with all of us based on the sacrifice once for all of His Son, which satisfied His justice. How He deals with us has nothing to do with our merits. It's not "claiming special privilege," it's showing from the Bible that good works don't save you.

Yes, sacrifice has been done once for all. You can't hide under that and ask for remission for no change in life. Protestants pastors are happy to declare, "Our past, present and future sins are forgiven," something unsupported by the Bible but applauded by congregation. One cannot commit adultery and ask forgiveness quoting David's sin as precedence. That is preposterous for a believer in Jesus--may be an accepted licence for Paul's believers.

That is the end of the story according to Jesus. Either you believe or you don't.

Hold good for dead Christians who don't believe in living God. Even Paul said that one has to run a race and discipline himself.

As far as continuing in sin without repentance, nobody here is making that argument, and neither does Paul. The fact that you would even accuse him of this shows your ignorance of his writings. As I said before, faith alone saves. Good works are evidence of that faith.

'Faith alone' is the 'ear tickling' theory of Paul to garner unsuspecting Gentiles to his flock. James has clearly said that faith without works is dead.

There are denominations for the same reason there was a need for a Jerusalem council in the early church. People are people, and our struggle with sin is ongoing even after salvation.

Jesus has clearly said that only those who endure till the end will be saved. You don't want to believe that because Paul is your undeclared savior. There is a Catholic church at our place named after one of their saints. They focus on the idol of the saint prominently displayed at the center. Jesus on cross is the next idol by the side of it. So Pauline Christians have a similar approach. They focus on Paul and sideline the words of Jesus.

However, most denominations are not "at the throat of each other." Exclamation points do not make your point any more valid.

That is vastly an underestimation. You seem to ignore the violence and killing since 3rd century.

Nobody here is claiming that we "escape the responsibility." I'll say again what I've said before, our good works do not save us. They are only evidence of faith, because they are evidence of the Holy Spirit's work in our lives. Without Jesus, we can do nothing. Claiming merit of our own is taking credit for God's work in us.

One can quench the Holy Spirit. We don't take merit but glorify Him for given that opportunity. People have taken over the final judgement all by themselves. They have replaced Jesus already with Paul. They forget that they have stand in the presence of God through Jesus.

You just quoted some of them. The rich young ruler who kept "all these commandments since he was a child" didn't trust Jesus' word enough to sell his livelihood and give it to the poor. No amount of good works would save him. Only full and complete belief in Jesus was enough.

This is a typical stance of Paul's believers: what was needed for that ruler was to declare that he is giving up all spiritually and follow Jesus with his backpacks of possessions. That is what many are doing. Thus they answer the call of Paul, not that of Jesus.

Then there's...

"Unless your righteousness surpasses the righteousness of the scribes and the pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven."

Yes, they were happy with outward observation of rituals and sacrifices. That won't do with Jesus. Mere belief won't do.

What does it mean to rely on the works of the law?

I don't rely on the works of law that may include animal sacrifices and rituals. What is valid spiritually, I try to keep them.

 

[Righttruth]

You didn't answer the question. What does it mean to rely on the works of the law?

Answered in # 823

 

[jerry kelso]

Obedient to the words of Jesus that fetch salvation, not man-made presumptions and self-claims followed by logic.

righttruth,
I have stated no man-made presumptions and self-claims followed by logic but I have provided scripture which you refuse to do.
Name me one scripture that Jesus taught Israel to believe in his death and resurrection to be saved in his earthly ministry. If you cannot do this it shows that you are less than honest in your statements. Are you afraid or are you going to just keep giving less than hones rhetoric. good luck Jerry Kelso

 

[Righttruth]

I wouldn't say that's true. I was interested in Jesus and looked for miracles, but didnt find them. I did however find the Word, which lead me to see that even that is a miracle. Just to see that i don't need healed, that strengthened my faith and helped me see that God loves me. In the end, after i stopped being angry at God for not healing me, i saw that He still loved me, and that's all that truly matters. Thats the healing i really need. Gods grace and his spirit guiding me, that's what i need most.Scripture showed me that miracles are not needed to be spiritual. Its better to look toward heaven than earthly things. Paul says that things on the earth are temporary, so any miracle healing or anything like that is only temporary, but things in heaven are eternal.

Our very existence is a miracle. Why need more to believe in loving Jesus? It may be needed initially for new believers. Not any more for the mature who believe in His words.

 

[Extraneous]

You see, to submit to government is to obey God, just as Israel did in Jeremiahs time and Romes time, when they were made to submit to Babylon and Rome. If we follow politicians however we follow Nebuchadnezzar or Caesar. Politicians will lead us seek earthly things instead of heavenly things. WE submit, but we dont follow their worldly ways. This is seen in the OT prophets, in Christs teaching and in Pauls teaching. False teachers today are leading people away from this truth, and are leading them to seek an earthly kingdom instead of one that is in heaven. They twist the scriptures. The meek shall inherit the earth actually means that they will inherit the kingdom of heaven, just as the Jews were allowed to stay in their land if they submitted to Babylon, so we are allowed to enter the kingdom. That kingdom is i our heart, but its not America. Israel, Rome or any other nation

Look at Daniel and Revelation. Look at the great harlot, Mystery Babylon.

 

[2 know him]

This is a logical fallacy. Israel was an earthly Kingdom. The kingdom of Heaven is not:

Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”

37 Pilate therefore said to Him, “Are You a king then?”

Jesus answered, “You say rightly that I am a king. For this cause I was born, and for this cause I have come into the world, that I should bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth hears My voice.”

Israel rejected God as their ruler when they asked Samuel for a king of their own. At that time, God was the king of their earthly kingdom. But we do not live in the earthly kingdom of Israel, but we are sojourners in whichever earthly kingdom we currently live in, belonging to the kingdom of heaven (which is not of this world). For this reason, just as the Jews (Jesus' disciples and the multitudes listening to Him) were to be subject to the scribes and the pharisees who represented their governing authorities, so we are to be subject to our governing authorities.

I point you again to Jesus' instructions to His disciples:
Then Jesus spoke to the multitudes and to His disciples, 2 saying: “The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 Therefore whatever they tell you to observe, that observe and do, but do not do according to their works; for they say, and do not do

Jesus' instructions to render to Caesar that which was Caesar's was an obvious statement that they should pay taxes. That was the entire context of the quote. They were using the money which Caesar's government produced. Therefore, they were to pay the taxes that Caesar required.

You seem to miss the fact that they were trying to trap Jesus by getting him to answer their question. If the answer was so simple there would be no trap. Jesus escaped their trap by telling them since the coin was Caesar's give him back his coin. If Jesus said it was wrong to pay taxes and answered the question directly, that they were asking, they would have accused Jesus to Caesar and had Caesar execute Jesus. On the other hand, if Jesus out rightly stated that it is okay to pay taxes to support the evil that Caesar does through force, then Jesus would have been seen to support these evil dictators and so Jesus repurposes their question and told them since the coin had Caesar's image it proved ownership of the coin was his and to give him the coin which belonged to him and to Give to God alone your obedience and strength.

 

[Righttruth]

righttruth,
I have stated no man-made presumptions and self-claims followed by logic but I have provided scripture which you refuse to do.
Name me one scripture that Jesus taught Israel to believe in his death and resurrection to be saved in his earthly ministry. If you cannot do this it shows that you are less than honest in your statements. Are you afraid or are you going to just keep giving less than hones rhetoric. good luck Jerry Kelso

I have made my position clear. Exclusive reference to Paul unsupported by other writers will not be valid when it comes to important theological concepts.

 

[Extraneous]

You seem to miss the fact that they were trying to trap Jesus by getting him to answer their question. If the answer was so simple there would be no trap. Jesus escaped their trap by telling them since the coin was Caesar's give him back his coin. If Jesus said it was wrong to pay taxes and answered the question directly, that they were asking, they would have accused Jesus to Caesar and had Caesar execute Jesus. On the other hand, if Jesus out rightly stated that it is okay to pay taxes to support the evil that Caesar does through force, then Jesus would have been seen to support these evil dictators and so Jesus repurposes their question and told them since the coin had Caesar's image it proved ownership of the coin was his and to give him the coin which belonged to him and to Give to God alone your obedience and strength.

You miss what God said in Jeremiah, Isaiah, the Gospel, and Pauls words which teach the same thing. You fail to see the Mother of harlots, Mystery Babylon, for who she is. Go back and look at those scriptures i posted, carefully examine them and see if im wrong.

 

[2 know him]

You see, to submit to government is to obey God, just as Israel did in Jeremiahs time and Romes time, when they were made to submit to Babylon and Rome. If we follow politicians however we follow Nebuchadnezzar or Caesar. Politicians will lead us seek earthly things instead of heavenly things. WE submit, but we dont follow their worldly ways. This is seen in the OT prophets, in Christs teaching and in Pauls teaching. False teachers today are leading people away from this truth, and are leading them to seek an earthly kingdom instead of one that is in heaven. They twist the scriptures. The meek shall inherit the earth actually means that they will inherit the kingdom of heaven, just as the Jews were allowed to stay in their land if they submitted to Babylon, so we are allowed to enter the kingdom. That kingdom is i our heart, but its not America. Israel, Rome or any other nation

Look at Daniel and Revelation. Look at the great harlot, Mystery Babylon.

Then why did the Angel take Peter out of the prison in Acts, it to submit to government is to obey God? And I guess Corrie Ten Boom was wrong for saving the Jews that she hide. And I suppose that all the evil that men do against the teachings of Christ, is now sanctioned, as governments are ministers of God.

Satan offered Jesus all the Kingdoms/Governments of the world if he would bow down and worship Satan and Jesus never argued that they belong to him. HOW CAN MEN WHO FORCE OTHERS INTO SUBJECTION BE MINISTERS OF GOD? IS THAT TREATING PEOPLE WITH EQUALITY AND LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF? Governments violate the teachings of CHRIST and are not God's servants but SATAN'S ministers. Testify AGAINST them, not for them: Jesus said. Paul was a heretic.

 

[Extraneous]

To render unto Cesar that which is his, and to God that which is his, and also to pay tribute and honor to who they are due (Romans 13), is to follow what God commands in Jeremiah 27. All these scriptures teach the same thing, the same command.



Mathew 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Jeremiah 27:2 “Thus says the Lord to me: ‘Make for yourselves bonds and yokes, and put them on your neck, 3 and send them to the king of Edom, the king of Moab, the king of the Ammonites, the king of Tyre, and the king of Sidon, by the hand of the messengers who come to Jerusalem to Zedekiah king of Judah. 4 And command them to say to their masters, “Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel—thus you shall say to your masters: 5 ‘I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are on the ground, by My great power and by My outstretched arm, and have given it to whom it seemed proper to Me.

6 And now I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, My servant; and the beasts of the field I have also given him to serve him. 7 So all nations shall serve him and his son and his son’s son, until the time of his land comes; and then many nations and great kings shall make him serve them. 8 And it shall be, that the nation and kingdom which will not serve Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, and which will not put its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, that nation I will punish,’ says the Lord, ‘with the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, until I have consumed them by his hand.

9 Therefore do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your dreamers, your soothsayers, or your sorcerers, who speak to you, saying, “You shall not serve the king of Babylon.” 10 For they prophesy a lie to you, to remove you far from your land; and I will drive you out, and you will perish. 11 But the nations that bring their necks under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him, I will let them remain in their own land,’ says the Lord, ‘and they shall till it and dwell in it.’”’”

Romans 13:5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

 

[2 know him]

Its not about serving an evil government, its about submitting to God. Its not about following a government if they lead us from obeying God, and its not about following any government at all. Look a Israel under Babylon in the time of Jeremiah. Look at Israel under Rome in the time of Christ. ITs actually about submitting to God.

We seek the kingdom now however and we are not citizens of this world anymore. Our citizenship is in heaven, ot earth. To follow politicians is to commit spiritual adultery against God. To resist the government authority is to resist God as well.Neither Christ or any of his disciples resisted Rome. They bore their cross and sought after the kingdom only. They were no longer citizens of either Rome or Israel. Their Zion was a spiritual mountain, not an earthly mountain. and so it is with us as well..


Jeremiah27:2 “Thus says the Lord to me: ‘Make for yourselves bonds and yokes, and put them on your neck, 3 and send them to the king of Edom, the king of Moab, the king of the Ammonites, the king of Tyre, and the king of Sidon, by the hand of the messengers who come to Jerusalem to Zedekiah king of Judah. 4 And command them to say to their masters, “Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel—thus you shall say to your masters: 5 ‘I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are on the ground, by My great power and by My outstretched arm, and have given it to whom it seemed proper to Me.

6 And now I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, My servant; and the beasts of the field I have also given him to serve him. 7 So all nations shall serve him and his son and his son’s son, until the time of his land comes; and then many nations and great kings shall make him serve them. 8 And it shall be, that the nation and kingdom which will not serve Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, and which will not put its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, that nation I will punish,’ says the Lord, ‘with the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, until I have consumed them by his hand.

9 Therefore do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your dreamers, your soothsayers, or your sorcerers, who speak to you, saying, “You shall not serve the king of Babylon.” 10 For they prophesy a lie to you, to remove you far from your land; and I will drive you out, and you will perish. 11 But the nations that bring their necks under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him, I will let them remain in their own land,’ says the Lord, ‘and they shall till it and dwell in it.’”’”

This was a time specific prophecy, not a word to establish all governments and all kingdoms as ministers of God.

 

[2 know him]

To render unto Cesar that which is his, and to God that which is his, and also to pay tribute and honor to who they are due (Romans 13), is to follow what God commands in Jeremiah 27. All these scriptures teach the same thing, the same command.



Mathew 22:21 They say unto him, Caesar's. Then saith he unto them, Render therefore unto Caesar the things which are Caesar's; and unto God the things that are God's.

Jeremiah 27:2 “Thus says the Lord to me: ‘Make for yourselves bonds and yokes, and put them on your neck, 3 and send them to the king of Edom, the king of Moab, the king of the Ammonites, the king of Tyre, and the king of Sidon, by the hand of the messengers who come to Jerusalem to Zedekiah king of Judah. 4 And command them to say to their masters, “Thus says the Lord of hosts, the God of Israel—thus you shall say to your masters: 5 ‘I have made the earth, the man and the beast that are on the ground, by My great power and by My outstretched arm, and have given it to whom it seemed proper to Me.

6 And now I have given all these lands into the hand of Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, My servant; and the beasts of the field I have also given him to serve him. 7 So all nations shall serve him and his son and his son’s son, until the time of his land comes; and then many nations and great kings shall make him serve them. 8 And it shall be, that the nation and kingdom which will not serve Nebuchadnezzar the king of Babylon, and which will not put its neck under the yoke of the king of Babylon, that nation I will punish,’ says the Lord, ‘with the sword, the famine, and the pestilence, until I have consumed them by his hand.

9 Therefore do not listen to your prophets, your diviners, your dreamers, your soothsayers, or your sorcerers, who speak to you, saying, “You shall not serve the king of Babylon.” 10 For they prophesy a lie to you, to remove you far from your land; and I will drive you out, and you will perish. 11 But the nations that bring their necks under the yoke of the king of Babylon and serve him, I will let them remain in their own land,’ says the Lord, ‘and they shall till it and dwell in it.’”’”

Romans 13:5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

Again, Jeremiah's prophecy was a time specific prophecy, not a word to establish all governments and all kingdoms as ministers of God.

 

[Extraneous]

Then why did the Angel take Peter out of the prison in Acts, it to submit to government is to obey God? And I guess Corrie Ten Boom was wrong for saving the Jews that she hide. And I suppose that all the evil that men do against the teachings of Christ, is now sanctioned, as governments are ministers of God.

Satan offered Jesus all the Kingdoms/Governments of the world if he would bow down and worship Satan and Jesus never argued that they belong to him. HOW CAN MEN WHO FORCE OTHERS INTO SUBJECTION BE MINISTERS OF GOD? IS THAT TREATING PEOPLE WITH EQUALITY AND LOVING YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF? Governments violate the teachings of CHRIST and are not God's servants but SATAN'S ministers. Testify AGAINST them, not for them: Jesus said. Paul was a heretic.

No, if Babylon's law decrees that we break Gods law, then we must serve God instead, but that changes nothing, we still submit to Babylon's authority. Render unto Cesar that which is his, and unto God that which belongs to Him. Look at the beast of Revelation and the image that Nebuchadnezzar made in daniel 3. They are the same, only one is a real idol (Danial 3), the other is a spiritual idol. (Revelation 12) If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.




Daniel 3:1 Nebuchadnezzar the king made an image of gold, whose height was sixty cubits and its width six cubits. He set it up in the plain of Dura, in the province of Babylon. 2 And King Nebuchadnezzar sent word to gather together the satraps, the administrators, the governors, the counselors, the treasurers, the judges, the magistrates, and all the officials of the provinces, to come to the dedication of the image which King Nebuchadnezzar had set up.

Then a herald cried aloud: “To you it is commanded, O peoples, nations, and languages, 5 that at the time you hear the sound of the horn, flute, harp, lyre, and psaltery, in symphony with all kinds of music, you shall fall down and worship the gold image that King Nebuchadnezzar has set up; 6 and whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast immediately into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.”

7 So at that time, when all the people heard the sound of the horn, flute, harp, and lyre, in symphony with all kinds of music, all the people, nations, and languages fell down and worshiped the gold image which King Nebuchadnezzar had set up.

4 Then a herald cried aloud: “To you it is commanded, O peoples, nations, and languages, 5 that at the time you hear the sound of the horn, flute, harp, lyre, and psaltery, in symphony with all kinds of music, you shall fall down and worship the gold image that King Nebuchadnezzar has set up; 6 and whoever does not fall down and worship shall be cast immediately into the midst of a burning fiery furnace.”

7 So at that time, when all the people heard the sound of the horn, flute, harp, and lyre, in symphony with all kinds of music, all the people, nations, and languages fell down and worshiped the gold image which King Nebuchadnezzar had set up.



The Beast from the Sea
Revelation 13:13 Then I[a] stood on the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast rising up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and on his horns ten crowns, and on his heads a blasphemous name. 2 Now the beast which I saw was like a leopard, his feet were like the feet of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. The dragon gave him his power, his throne, and great authority. 3 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been mortally wounded, and his deadly wound was healed. And all the world marveled and followed the beast. 4 So they worshiped the dragon who gave authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast? Who is able to make war with him?”

5 And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue[c] for forty-two months. 6 Then he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme His name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. 7 It was granted to him to make war with the saints and to overcome them. And authority was given him over every tribe,[d] tongue, and nation. 8 All who dwell on the earth will worship him, whose names have not been written in the Book of Life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

 

[nomadictheist]

Rom 13:3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:
According to Paul's own words he was evil and so were all the Christians that were thrown to the lions, you must accept this because Paul's words are infallible and GOD says (if you believe the bible is infallible) earthly RULERS are not a terror to good works: Paul's own words condemn him as being evil.

No, he wasn't. You're misinterpreting these verses. Look at the context.

Let every soul be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.2 Therefore whoever resists the authority resists the ordinance of God, and those who resist will bring judgment on themselves. 3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil. Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same. 4 For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil. 5 Therefore you must be subject, not only because of wrath but also for conscience’ sake. 6 For because of this you also pay taxes, for they are God’s ministers attending continually to this very thing. 7 Render therefore to all their due: taxes to whom taxes are due, customs to whom customs, fear to whom fear, honor to whom honor.

He is talking about submitting to authority and not resisting. That's why he talks about things like taxes, customs, etc. Did Jesus resist when He was brought before Pontius Pilate?

There's a reason that Peter says that Paul's readings are hard to understand, and that ignorant and unstable people twist them to their own destruction, as they do the rest of scripture. Jesus did not call us to anarchy.

Haven't you read the sermon on the mount? He says "if someone compels you to go with them one mile, go with them two..." He also says "if someone wants to sue you and take away your tunic, give him your cloak also." The first is a reference to submitting to the authority of the government, and the second to going above and beyond in settling personal disputes.

You can't show from Jesus' teachings that He does not want us to submit to authority.

 

[Extraneous]

Sorry, i messed up the Daniel and revelation scripture. I didnt mean to boldface the scripture, that was a default thing, i usually un-boldface it but i cannot edit. I also messed up the Daniel scripture because i think i missed to post the part where Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego didn't worship the image and were put inthe fiery furnace Peter says that our faith is tested in the like gold in the crucibal.


12 There are certain Jews whom you have set over the affairs of the province of Babylon: Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-Nego; these men, O king, have not paid due regard to you. They do not serve your gods or worship the gold image which you have set up.”

 

[Extraneous]

I try to post too fast because this thread flies by, and i like to keep my posts close together, because i usually expound on the things. Sorry for all my typos

 

[Extraneous]

Peter teaches the same thing that Paul teaches in Romans 13. This is the sae command that we see in Jerimiah when the Jews had to submit to Baylon. Christ submitted to Romes earthly authorty, he allowed them to crucify him. We must bear our own cross as well. THis is the meat of the gospel.

Politicians are Cesar and America, along with all nations, are Babylon. We should not follow them, but only submit to their authority. Look at what peter says, we are a Royal nation. Our nation is the kingdom of heaven, just as Paul teaches us. We are no longer Americans, but our citizenship is in heaven. To be an American and follow her politicians is to commit spiritual adultery against God. This goes with any other nation as well. Zion is spiritual, our kingdom is in heaven where both Jews and Gentiles are brothers in Christ. Holiness is to separate ourselves from this world and to seek only the kingdom of Heaven. Where your treasure is, so is your heart. We have no President or Congress, we have something better, we have the King of all Kings. America belongs to the world, to the Gentiles so to speak, but we belong to Heaven, not earth.


1 Peter 2:9 But you are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, His own special people, that you may proclaim the praises of Him who called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; 10 who once were not a people but are now the people of God, who had not obtained mercy but now have obtained mercy.

13 Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king as supreme, 14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good. 15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men— 16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God. 17 Honor all people. Love the brotherhood. Fear God. Honor the king.

21 For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us,[f] leaving us[g] an example, that you should follow His steps:

22 “Who committed no sin,
Nor was deceit found in His mouth”; [h]
23 who, when He was reviled, did not revile in return; when He suffered, He did not threaten, but committed Himself to Him who judges righteously; 24 who Himself bore our sins in His own body on the tree, that we, having died to sins, might live for righteousness—by whose stripes you were healed. 25 For you were like sheep going astray, but have now returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.



2 Corinthians 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.”[c]
17 Therefore

“Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”[d]
18 “I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the Lord Almighty.”[e]

7:1 Therefore, having these promises, beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

2 Open your hearts to us. We have wronged no one, we have corrupted no one, we have cheated no one. 3 I do not say this to condemn; for I have said before that you are in our hearts, to die together and to live together. 4 Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my boasting on your behalf. I am filled with comfort. I am exceedingly joyful in all our tribulation.

 

[nomadictheist]

You seem to miss the fact that they were trying to trap Jesus by getting him to answer their question. If the answer was so simple there would be no trap. Jesus escaped their trap by telling them since the coin was Caesar's give him back his coin. If Jesus said it was wrong to pay taxes and answered the question directly, that they were asking, they would have accused Jesus to Caesar and had Caesar execute Jesus. On the other hand, if Jesus out rightly stated that it is okay to pay taxes to support the evil that Caesar does through force, then Jesus would have been seen to support these evil dictators and so Jesus repurposes their question and told them since the coin had Caesar's image it proved ownership of the coin was his and to give him the coin which belonged to him and to Give to God alone your obedience and strength.

No, you seem to miss the fact that they were trying to trap Jesus. A trap is something from which there is no way out. If it were as simple as you are claiming, it wouldn't be a trap.

The trap was this: the Herodians were asking Jesus about paying taxes, that is, a form of tribute, to Caesar. They said "is it lawful," implying that there was something in the law of Moses that forbade it. Jesus response seems rather cryptic when you actually take some time to think about it:

"Render therefore unto Caesar's the things which are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's."

When you actually think about this verse, it becomes obvious that Jesus' words are not to be taken as a human would normally read them, that is "whatever is Caesar's give to Caesar, but whatever is God's give to God." This is obvious because everything is God's. So Jesus were saying that we were to give the denarius, which is Caesar's, back to Caesar because it belonged to Caesar and not God, He would be contradicting Himself.

So, to fully consider the meaning of Jesus, let us consider the words of the prophets before Him:
Daniel says:
Blessed be the name of God forever and ever,
For wisdom and might are His.
21 And He changes the times and the seasons;
He removes kings and raises up kings;
He gives wisdom to the wise
And knowledge to those who have understanding.
22 He reveals deep and secret things;
He knows what is in the darkness,
And light dwells with Him.

Daniel 4:17

The Most High has power over earthly kingdoms. He gives them to whoever He wishes...

The words of Jesus:

John 19:10-11

Then Pilate said to Him, “Are You not speaking to me? Do You not know that I have power to crucify You, and power to release You?”

11 Jesus answered, “You could have no power at all against Me unless it had been given you from above. Therefore the one who delivered Me to you has the greater sin.”

And the words of Peter:

1 Peter 2:13-16

Therefore submit yourselves to every ordinance of man for the Lord’s sake, whether to the king as supreme, 14 or to governors, as to those who are sent by him for the punishment of evildoers and for the praise of those who do good.15 For this is the will of God, that by doing good you may put to silence the ignorance of foolish men— 16 as free, yet not using liberty as a cloak for vice, but as bondservants of God.

The prophets, the apostles, and Jesus all confirm that earthly governmental authorities are set up by God. Therefore, when you are rendering unto Caesar that which is Caesar's, you are also rendering to God that which is God's. When you refuse to submit or pay taxes to the authority that God has put over you, you are not rendering to God the things that are God's. All things are God's. And God has appointed kings and rulers.

 

[nomadictheist]

Answered in # 823

No it's not. You said that you don't rely on the works of the law, but didn't answer what it means to rely on the works of the law.

Paul says that "whoever relies on the works of the law is under a curse..." The book you constantly quote says that whoever relies on the works of the law is not under a curse.

So I ask you again, what does it mean to rely on the works of the law?