How should we read Paul?

Righttruth · Mar 16, 2016

Extraneous said:
Paul actually teaches that Children obey their parents, and im sure you are aware of that.

With his populist advice, he would please both. He also said parents should make property for the sake of children.

Your second statement doesn't reflect my intention. I meant to say that i should agree with pauls words because they are truth, just as all scripture is. Paul was a prophet who spoke Gods Word.

Who says Paul was an apostle?

Righttruth · Mar 16, 2016

Extraneous said:
Yes, but those same people who would twist pauls words also twist all the scriptures, not just paul's words. This is exactly what peter said as well. They twist all scripture.

It is easy and convenient to twist already twisted words.

Righttruth · Mar 16, 2016

Extraneous said:
They do agree though. Peter agrees with Pauls words as well

It agrees with people who want to make dubious doctrines unsupported by the words of Christ.

Righttruth · Mar 16, 2016

NonTheologian said:
Dear Brother “Righttruth”:

I actually printed all three of these replies out to study what you are saying (although for some reason they show as #679, #725, and #740 on my screen).

There is certainly a lot of well-thought out content. Focusing, however, on specific words of Paul’s that don’t agree with specific words of the Lord’s, it seems that your argument is as follows:

(a) According to Matthew, the Lord said, “Call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father, who is in heaven (23:9).

(b) Paul wrote, “For though ye have ten thousand instructers [sic] in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel” (1 Corinthians 4:14,15)

(c) The words Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 4:14,15 do not agree with the command Christ gave, as accounted in Matthew 23:9

(d) According to Matthew, the Lord said, “But you are not to be called rabbi, for you have one teacher, and you are all brethren (23:8)

(e) Paul wrote, “God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers (1 Corinthians 12:28)

(f) The words Paul wrote in 1 Corinthians 12:28 do not agree with the command Christ gave, as accounted in Matthew 23:8

(g) Paul wrote of his own appointment as preacher, apostle, and teacher in 1 Timothy 2:7

(h) The words Paul wrote in 1 Timothy 2:7 do not agree with the command Christ gave, as accounted in Matthew 23:8

(i) Paul wrote of his own appointment as preacher, apostle, and teacher in 2 Timothy 1:11

(j) The words Paul wrote in 2 Timothy 1:11 do not agree with the command Christ gave, as accounted in Matthew 23:8

(k) According to Matthew, the Lord said, “But when you pray, go into your room and shut the door and pray to your Father who is in secret; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you” (6:6)

(l) Paul wrote to the Corinthian church, “What am I to do? I will pray with the spirit and I will pray with the mind also; I will sing with the spirit and I will sing with the mind also. Otherwise if you bless with the spirit, how can anyone in the position of an outsider say the ‘Amen’ to the thanksgiving when he does not know what you are saying?"

(m) What Paul wrote to the Corinthian church above does not agree with the command that Christ gave, as accounted in Matthew 6:6.

(n) By any of (c), (f), (h), (j), or (m), it can be said that the words of Paul do not agree with certain commands of Christ.

Am I correctly stating your premises and conclusion(s) in this particular area?

Thank you.

At a glance, these appear to be right. Nevertheless, all these have been discussed in detail in the replies I have quoted by the seminary student seeking truth.

NonTheologian · Mar 16, 2016

Righttruth said:
At a glance, these appear to be right. Nevertheless, all these have been discussed in detail in the replies I have quoted by the seminary student seeking truth.

Is the detail you are describing what you posted in those three blocks, or is it in some other part of the thread?

Righttruth · Mar 16, 2016

NonTheologian said:
Is the detail you are describing what you posted in those three blocks, or is it in some other part of the thread?

They have been quoted with the title "Excerpts from the published book, "Did Saint Paul Deviate From The Gospel?"

NonTheologian · Mar 16, 2016

Righttruth said:
They have been quoted with the title "Excerpts from the published book, "Did Saint Paul Deviate From The Gospel?"

Ok, thank you. Yes, that is what is contained in those three numbered posts. I will give them some thought.

NonTheologian · Mar 16, 2016

Righttruth said:
They have been quoted with the title "Excerpts from the published book, "Did Saint Paul Deviate From The Gospel?"

Considering your first objection regarding Paul regarding himself as a "father" of sorts when the Lord admonished against such things, you cite Matthew 23:9 - And call no [man] father upon the earth; for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

But in other Gospel accounts, the Lord emphasizes the commandment to honor one's father and mother (Matthew 15:4; Matthew 18:19; Mark 7:10; Luke 18:20). Can we presume that one can honor one's father without actually calling him "Father"?

Supposing we could, does not the Lord then appear to then contradict Himself in other Gospel accounts? For example, as the Lord is proceeding into Jerusalem on a colt, he does not upbraid the people when they cry Blessed be the kingdom of our father David (Mark 11:10). Does the Angel Gabriel blaspheme when he explains to the Virgin, the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father David (Luke 1:32), or when the she and Zacharias recall their fathers or father Abraham (Luke 1:28; Luke 1:72-73). Why would the Lord, having admonished us not to call any man father, have someone in his parables do just that, as is the case with the prodigal son (Luke 15:21)? Does not the Lord Himself use the word "father" in a sense other than Him who is in Heaven when he tells the Jews, Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers (John 7:22), or Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad (John 9:56)?

Extraneous · Mar 16, 2016

Righttruth said:
He also said parents should make property for the sake of children.

What does this mean?

nomadictheist · Mar 16, 2016

Extraneous said:
Paul said he became all things to all men. Im merely trying to find a common ground of agreement. The sermon on the mount seems to be a focal point in this thread, the question being debated is whether Paul deviates from Christs commands. My post addresses the commands in Mathew 5, and it shows how Paul may have applied the spiritual understanding in how Christ taught those commands. I was actually agreeing with you that a person cannot obey the law perfectly. Im just trying to connect Pauls teaching to Christs teaching as much as i can, according to my limited understanding. Sorry i was a bit random, but its relevant to the discussion somewhat.

I apologize for the misunderstanding, then. I agree with you that Jesus' commandments are also impossible to keep fully.

Extraneous · Mar 16, 2016

nomadictheist said:
I apologize for the misunderstanding, then. I agree with you that Jesus' commandments are also impossible to keep fully.

We cant obey them flawlessly, but we can follow them regardless. No one is flawless.

nomadictheist · Mar 16, 2016

Righttruth said:
So you think 'love your enemies' is not a commandment? That is preposterous to say the least!

Nope. Didn't say that, but it's not a new commandment. Is your enemy your neighbor, or not?

That was the beginning, and it was enough. Just because it was difficult for some to observe on some part of Law, it doesn't mean they were under curse for trusting the Law which was the only righteous path before Jesus came.

That's the whole point - the law never had the power to save. In the OT, the fathers of Israel and the Israelites were saved by belief in God's promise of a Messiah to save them one day.

In that case, Moses, David and many OT prophets went to hell.

Nope, see above. Moses, David, Abraham, Isaac, etc. were saved through their faith, which was shown in their works.

Noah and Abraham were considered righteous even before the Law was given.

Perhaps this will help:

By faith Abel offered to God a more excellent sacrifice than Cain, through which he obtained witness that he was righteous, God testifying of his gifts; and through it he being dead still speaks.

5 By faith Enoch was taken away so that he did not see death, “and was not found, because God had taken him”; for before he was taken he had this testimony, that he pleased God. 6 But without faith it is impossible to please Him,for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

7 By faith Noah, being divinely warned of things not yet seen, moved with godly fear, prepared an ark for the saving of his household, by which he condemned the world and became heir of the righteousness which is according to faith.

Faithful Abraham
8 By faith Abraham obeyed when he was called to go out to the place which he would receive as an inheritance. And he went out, not knowing where he was going. 9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

11 By faith Sarah herself also received strength to conceive seed, and she bore a child when she was past the age, because she judged Him faithful who had promised. 12 Therefore from one man, and him as good as dead, were born as many as the stars of the sky in multitude—innumerable as the sand which is by the seashore.

The Heavenly Hope
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14 For those who say such things declare plainly that they seek a homeland. 15 And truly if they had called to mind that country from which they had come out, they would have had opportunity to return.16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

The Faith of the Patriarchs
17 By faith Abraham, when he was tested, offered up Isaac, and he who had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18 of whom it was said, “In Isaac your seed shall be called,”19 concluding that God was able to raise himup, even from the dead, from which he also received him in a figurative sense.

20 By faith Isaac blessed Jacob and Esau concerning things to come.

21 By faith Jacob, when he was dying, blessed each of the sons of Joseph, and worshiped, leaning on the top of his staff.

22 By faith Joseph, when he was dying, made mention of the departure of the children of Israel, and gave instructions concerning his bones.

The Faith of Moses
23 By faith Moses, when he was born, was hidden three months by his parents, because they saw he was a beautiful child; and they were not afraid of the king’s command.

24 By faith Moses, when he became of age, refused to be called the son of Pharaoh’s daughter, 25 choosing rather to suffer affliction with the people of God than to enjoy the passing pleasures of sin, 26 esteeming the reproach of Christ greater riches than the treasures in Egypt; for he looked to the reward.

27 By faith he forsook Egypt, not fearing the wrath of the king; for he endured as seeing Him who is invisible. 28 By faith he kept the Passover and the sprinkling of blood, lest he who destroyed the firstborn should touch them.

29 By faith they passed through the Red Sea as by dry land, whereas the Egyptians, attempting to do so, were drowned.

By Faith They Overcame
30 By faith the walls of Jericho fell down after they were encircled for seven days.31 By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.

32 And what more shall I say? For the time would fail me to tell of Gideon and Barak and Samson and Jephthah, also of David and Samuel and the prophets:33 who through faith subdued kingdoms, worked righteousness, obtained promises, stopped the mouths of lions, 34 quenched the violence of fire, escaped the edge of the sword, out of weakness were made strong, became valiant in battle, turned to flight the armies of the aliens. 35 Women received their dead raised to life again.

Others were tortured, not accepting deliverance, that they might obtain a better resurrection. 36 Still others had trial of mockings and scourgings, yes, and of chains and imprisonment. 37 They were stoned, they were sawn in two, were tempted, were slain with the sword. They wandered about in sheepskins and goatskins, being destitute, afflicted, tormented— 38 of whom the world was not worthy. They wandered in deserts and mountains, in dens and caves of the earth.

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

nomadictheist · Mar 16, 2016

Extraneous said:
We cant obey them flawlessly, but we can follow them regardless. No one is flawless.

Yes, by faith all who are being saved are being conformed to the image of Christ, so we may follow His commandments more and more without flaw.

Extraneous · Mar 16, 2016

nomadictheist said:
Yes, by faith all who are being saved are being conformed to the image of Christ, so we may follow His commandments more and more without flaw.

That's our desire, yes, i agree.

Righttruth · Mar 16, 2016

NonTheologian said:
Considering your first objection regarding Paul regarding himself as a "father" of sorts when the Lord admonished against such things, you cite Matthew 23:9 - And call no [man] father upon the earth; for one is your Father, which is in heaven.

But in other Gospel accounts, the Lord emphasizes the commandment to honor one's father and mother (Matthew 15:4; Matthew 18:19; Mark 7:10; Luke 18:20). Can we presume that one can honor one's father without actually calling him "Father"?

Yes, why else people use the word 'dad' for father. It may be so in other languages too.

Supposing we could, does not the Lord then appear to then contradict Himself in other Gospel accounts? For example, as the Lord is proceeding into Jerusalem on a colt, he does not upbraid the people when they cry Blessed be the kingdom of our father David (Mark 11:10).

That was not the time to enlighten a mob.

Does the Angel Gabriel blaspheme when he explains to the Virgin, the Lord God shall give unto Him the throne of His father David (Luke 1:32), or when the she and Zacharias recall their fathers or father Abraham (Luke 1:28; Luke 1:72-73).

Jesus preached to people, so I don't think He had done that to Gabriel. The OT people Zacharias has not been made known about the expectations of Jesus.

Why would the Lord, having admonished us not to call any man father, have someone in his parables do just that, as is the case with the prodigal son (Luke 15:21)?

How much of sublime and profound truth the prodigal son knew?

Does not the Lord Himself use the word "father" in a sense other than Him who is in Heaven when he tells the Jews, Moses therefore gave unto you circumcision; not because it is of Moses, but of the fathers (John 7:22), or Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad (John 9:56)?

Jesus was specific that no living person should be addressed to as father. That title applies only to our living God, our Father. Using that to indicate or clarify blood relationship is OK.

Righttruth · Mar 16, 2016

Extraneous said:
What does this mean?

2 Corinthians 12
14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

Righttruth · Mar 16, 2016

nomadictheist said:
Nope. Didn't say that, but it's not a new commandment. Is your enemy your neighbor, or not?

If not new, please quote who else has said, "Love your enemies."

That's the whole point - the law never had the power to save. In the OT, the fathers of Israel and the Israelites were saved by belief in God's promise of a Messiah to save them one day.

Moses had no idea of a Messiah.

Nope, see above. Moses, David, Abraham, Isaac, etc. were saved through their faith, which was shown in their works.

What happened to the idea 'faith alone'?

nomadictheist · Mar 16, 2016

Righttruth said:
If not new, please quote who else has said, "Love your enemies."

First, answer my question. Is your enemy your neighbor?

Moses had no idea of a Messiah.

Are you calling Jesus a liar?
John 5:45-47
"Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”

What happened to the idea 'faith alone'?

What part of "shown by their works" don't you understand?

Extraneous · Mar 16, 2016

Righttruth said:
2 Corinthians 12
14 Behold, the third time I am ready to come to you; and I will not be burdensome to you: for I seek not yours, but you: for the children ought not to lay up for the parents, but the parents for the children.

Yes, Paul was talking to the carnal Corinthians, infants in Christ. This scripture you post is from his second letter. He was telling them that he didn't want their money, but instead their love. The father thing is his way of telling them they needed to grow up instead of acting like infants, in my opinion. In his first letter, seen here below, paul calls them "brothers", but also infants

1 Corinthians 3:3 And I, brethren, could not speak to you as to spiritual people but as to carnal, as to babes in Christ. 2 I fed you with milk and not with solid food; for until now you were not able to receive it, and even now you are still not able;3 for you are still carnal. For where there are envy, strife, and divisions among you, are you not carnal and behaving like mere men? 4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not carnal?

5 Who then is Paul, and who is Apollos, but ministers through whom you believed, as the Lord gave to each one? 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God gave the increase. 7 So then neither he who plants is anything, nor he who waters, but God who gives the increase. 8 Now he who plants and he who waters are one, and each one will receive his own reward according to his own labor.

Righttruth · Mar 16, 2016

nomadictheist said:
First, answer my question. Is your enemy your neighbor?

Our neighbors could be friends or foes.

[/quote]Are you calling Jesus a liar?
John 5:45-47
"Do not think that I shall accuse you to the Father; there is one who accuses you—Moses, in whom you trust. 46 For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me. 47 But if you do not believe his writings, how will you believe My words?”[/quote]

No, only who seek the spiritual things can understand Moses when he brought Law initially for the people who were slaves. The concept of Messiah was a later development confined to freedom from political rule. Hence only we find the word Messiah in Daniel, not in Moses' books. Moses had a limited responsibility to teach about righteousness through the letter of the Law.

What part of "shown by their works" don't you understand?

I was questioning 'faith only' concept derived out of Paul's piece-wise verses.

How should we read Paul?

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