How should we read Paul?

Righttruth said:

Jesus preached with simple statements, and he did not indulge in play of words. Why should I do that for your sake?

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That's true his commands are easy to understand, but there are hidden gems of mystery in them as well. I believe a person must obey his commands in order to receive the knowledge found in this hidden treasure. Dont however discount Pauls words, or you will only bring poverty on yorself

Righttruth said:

Jesus preached with simple statements, and he did not indulge in play of words. Why should I do that for your sake?

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I'm not talking about play of words. I'm asking you to answer a simple question. What does it mean to rely on the works of the law?

I'm asking you to answer the question without reading into, spiritualizing, or otherwise interpreting the phrase "rely on the works of the law" in a way that is not a plain reading of the phrase. Not asking you to engage in wordplay.

So I'll ask you again, what does it mean to rely on the works of the law?

Its all about love for God. A person who loves God will surely keep the commands of Christ, and His apostles, which includes Paul.

Righttruth said:

Your repetitions of KOH & KOG and death and resurrection show your ignorance of the words of Jesus and His life.

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righttruth,

1. WORDS OF JESUS WERE ; REPENT FOR THE KINGDOM OF HEAVEN IS AT HAND MATTHEW 4:17
WORDS OF JESUS WERE ; SEEK YE FIRST THE KOG AND HIS RIGHTEOUSNESS AND ALL THESE THINGS SHALL BE ADDED UNTO YOU. MATTHEW 6:33
WORDS OF JESUS WERE ; THE KINGDOM OF GOD COMETH NOT WITH OBSERVATION; NEITHER SHALL THEY SAY LO HERE OR LO THERE FOR BEHOLD THE KINGDOM OF GOD IS WITHIN YOU. LUKE 17:20-21

2. The KOH is mentioned at least 33 times and Matthew 13 is all about the KOH parables which culminates in the end of the world. This was during his earthly ministry and yet you don't think it is important. The KOG is mentioned about 72 times and yet it is not important. I have provided scripture of what Jesus said about the KOH and the KOG and there are many more. Are you going to deny what Christ said in his earthly ministry because you said you obey Jesus teachings. Why don't you show Jesus words of the KOH and the KOG and how it applies to your life.
The only ignorance is your denial of the context of Jesus ministry being the KOH and the KOG which mirrors the ignorance of Jesus and his life. Your refusal of no scriptural proof of what you say is very disturbing and fool hardy. Your accusations are just false as the day is long. If you think they are true then why don't you provide scripture to prove your point instead of opinions and rhetoric. Jerry kelso

Righttruth said:

Your take that Gospel is nothing but death and resurrection conforms well with the ignorant Paul.

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righttruth,

1. I have said that the only gospel is the death, burial, and resurrection for the new covenant believer concerning of being what we are to believe in as a basis for salvation. Jesus said his blood was the new testament; Matthew 28:26.
I have never said that the death burial, and resurrection of Christ was the only thing contained in the gospel of Jesus Christ. For you to even think and say that shows real ignorance and shows that you jump to conclusions without knowing the facts. Jerry kelso

Righttruth said:

There are different groups in Messianic Jews. Jews are also divided. Hard core Jews want the temple to be built and sacrifices to be started all over again. They are supported by deluded Christians. Some Pentecostal people are jumping up and down and speak out incoherently with shouts proclaiming that their misunderstanding of the Revelation is going to be fulfilled.



Don't pass the buck to civil leaders for religious requirement. Now the trend is ignoring the parents and humiliating them with Paul's stance of showing concessions to children.



Paul's letters were to Gentiles who never knew about the Law.



There is only one Gospel. Paul never knew much of the Gospel. He had heard about it when he stayed with Peter and probably from others. Peter didn't sin by identifying with Judaizers; it was a mistake in the initial stages of spiritual growth.



You are accusing God for giving Law that would help people to avoid the curse. Law itself is not curse. As I said before Christians may not be stoned to death for transgressing the Law, but will have eternal damnation to face with.



Keeping the spirit of the Law is not according to our conscience. The new covenant is much spiritually relevant understanding of the Law without the outward observance and rituals. Do you think the Lord who was observing the Passover preparations will come up with totally different covenant? He showed a highly improved and spiritually meaningful observance that pleases God.



These distinctions are not part of salvation. They may only breed hatred between races.



You say there was a weakness in the commandment? New covenant has promises and also sufferings that go with that.



Are you alright? Can cross become an offense to the Gospel. Paul had his own plans. Neither he was in harmony with Christ nor with the Gospel.



Paul's speculations that lead to all kinds convenient concepts.



Was not Paul a Jew?



You appear to be obsessed with KOH and KOG without giving importantance to the life related to Jesus.



This is typical piece-wise understanding of Paul's verse. Mature people quote the full verse:
Romans 8:
1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.





Let me remind you that I am not a Jew. Unless you come out of your shell of KOH & KOG, you can never experience the freedom of knowing the truth.

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righttruth,

1. The temple will be rebuilt. Revelation 11:1-2

2. Children obey your parents in the Lord: for this is right; Honour thy father and mother; which is the first commandment with promises; That I may be well with thee and thou mayest live long on the earth. Ephesians 6:1-3. Paul is in unity with old covenant in obedience but there is no specific judgement of stoning for dishonoring your parents.

3. Paul's letter to the gentiles knew about the law if you read the book of Galatians and the jews were to be the light of the world so some of them heard about the law because they had to be witnessed by the jews and proselyted in. There were proselyted strangers on the Day of Pentecost from Rome. So not all the gentiles in his ministry were ignorant about the law of Moses.

4. After Paul was converted and received his sight at Ananias he was with the apostles for certain days at Damascus and then preached Christ in the synagogues that he is the Son of God. Acts 9:12-20. There is no argument that he didn't learn about the gospel from the apostles.
Galatians 1:16; To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus. Then after three years I went up to Jerusalem to see Peter, and abode with him fifteen days.
Galatians 2:1-2; Then fourteen years after I went up again to Jerusalem with Barnabas and took Titus with me also. And I went up by revelation and communicated unto them that gospel which I preach among the Gentiles, but privately to them which were of reputation, lest by any means I should run or had run in vain.
Paul knew he had heard from God but went unto reputable christians because lest he had run in vain. Paul wasn't out to stroke his ego of knowledge. But because of the amount of revelation he received and God gave him a thorn in the flesh to keep him humble 2 Corinthians 12. Paul would only glory in the cross Galatians 6:14.

5. Peter's sin was about respect of persons not associating with gentiles. Galatians 2:11-12; But when Perter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed,. For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the gentiles; but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision. Either you don't understand the scripture or you don't read it or can't read it or you guess at it or don't care. Which is it because it is plain to see that respect of persons is different than associating with gentiles and that the context concerns of being with the gentiles and then not being with them on purpose because he feared the circumcision who were the jewish law keepers. Read the bible for a change. It had nothing to do with the initial stages of spiritual growth. How reckless that interpretation is. It wasn't a mere mistake, it was a willful act because of fear.

6. I said what the bible said about the law of Moses that it was holy and good Romans 7. Just because a christian may break the law doesn't mean he will face eternal damnation because he can ask for forgiveness and their are death penalty sins and others are not. We will be judged by the way we build on the foundation of the church 1 Corinthians 3.

7. The law was good if one performed it if not it was judgement and this is why Romans says the law of Moses was wrath. The problem is you don't have a clue of the purpose of the Mosaic law and the mechanics of the law and the weakness of the commandment. At the same time the law was holy and good and one has to understand both sides and why the new covenant is built on better promises.

8. The law mentality brings a conscience of sin and the bible states that the law brought knowledge of sin Romans 3:20.
The letter killeth and the Spirit gives life 2 Corinthians 3:6. The letter was the 10 commandments which was the ministration of death 2 Corinthians 3:7. Read 2 Corinthians 3:1-16. The Mosaic law was done away with at Calvary and Moses put a veil over his head so the children of Israel were blinded to it's passing away and they are still blinded. It will be lifted when they come back to God in the future tribulation.

9. The distinctions of Law and Grace and it does deal with salvation because salvation could have never come through Ishmael's race which are the arabs. Instead Jesus came from the jewish nation. Read your bible. The jews are hated by Arabs which are God's chosen people despite their mishaps and sins. The bible says that the hand would always be upon Ishmael and this is why the strife continues to this day and will until the Lord comes back. Those Arabs will lie are taught to lie because they think everyone is the infidel. The hatred lies with them for they are against God.

10. The new covenant was built on better promises Hebrews 8:6-7 and the sufferings are because the gospel is the offence to those who don't want to believe and because Christ is the stone that the builders rejected, the same has become the head of the corner: this is the Lord's doing and it is marvelous in our eyes? Matthew 21:42.

11. The cross is not an enemy of the gospel it is the offence to those who don't want to believe. Paul was in perfect harmony with Christ. He said he would glory in the cross and in his infirmities and Christ said as he was persecuted his children would also be persecuted. You really need to read and understand your bible properly.

12. Paul's speculations are your opinions and you have no scripture to back it up.

13. Paul was a jew and he kept the law according to the new covenant ethic and not Moses ethic.

14. Jesus main message to the jews was the kingdom offer. Now if you want to talk about Jesus life then tell me what you specifically want to talk about and I will be glad to talk about it.

15. There is no condemnation for those in Christ Jesus who walk not after the flesh but after the Spirit: We are not to walk after the flesh but after the Spirit but in verse 2 the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. The condemnation is lifted at the moment of salvation but at the same time we do have to abide in the Spirit.
I have always said that Romans 7 was written about the old covenant law of Moses and how the law of sin and death took advantage of it and made the old covenant law keepers live to self effort because the commandment could not help them perform the commandment and made them live to the frailty of man.
I have also said that though it was speaking of the old covenant and old covenant believer that a new covenant believer could fall into the same trap and same mindset but it was not a new testament believer's example in their lives. The reason is because many christians believe they can't help but sin because they are only human conscience to the extreme that causes them to live in sin more than overcoming sin.

16. You may not be a jew but you have the veil over your head as well because you do not understand how to rightly divide the word and have the law mentality which causes the struggle.
2 Corinthians 3:13-15; And not as Moses, which put a veil over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished; But their minds were blinded; for until this day; remaineth the same veil untaken away in the reading of the old testament: which veil is done away in Christ, But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the veil is upon their hearts.
Jesus earthly ministry teaching was under the law of Moses which was done away in Christ at Calvary. Jesus said his blood was the new testament and so all the types and shadows and the ethic and weakness of the commandment and the curses etc. concerning the old testament is not the new covenant.
This doesn't mean there are not similar things or even same things in the new covenant as the old for the old was spiritual. But the covenant as a whole and what they were obligated to do and in specific terms as a rule of life were changed. Jesus didn't teach his death, burial, and resurrection in his earthly ministry. So there are things in the new covenant that will be new, the same as in the old but also the same with a different context to it.
Hebrews 9:16-17 For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator, For a testament is of force after men are dead, otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth. Matthew 28:26 says the new covenant is the blood he shed not Jesus teachings in his earthly ministry. Jesus didn't teach that his blood was the new covenant in his earthly teachings. He mentioned it in such passages such as Destroy this temple and I will raise it up in three day and no sign shall be given to the jews who always required a sign but the sign of Jonah who was in the belly of the whale three days and so the son of man be in the bowels of the earth for 3 days and nights. These contexts have to be properly understood of who Christ was speaking to and why he said it etc.

So you have been scripturally wrong on each of these points. This is because you refuse to ignore context of scripture and you cannot reconcile them together properly so they harmonize. Also, you have no idea how to solve a paradox. Jerry kelso

Righttruth said:

I don't ignore all Paul's words. The Holy Spirit helps to me accept what is truth and what is his imagination.

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righttruth,

If the Holy Spirit helped you to accept what is truth you would believe the whole Bible old and new including all of Paul's epistles as truth and from God. So imagination station to the extreme and contrary to God's word is the context of your world because you would have us believe that you hearing from the Holy Spirit is more truth than what his word says. The Holy Spirit doesn't go against the word of God. What you believe has to be backed up by the scripture but instead what you say you think is backed up by the Holy Spirit who in your world disregards truth when the bible says that Jesus sent him to lead and guide into all truth. Once again you are a walking contradiction in the context of what you have said and the beliefs that you have put out on these post. Jerry Kelso

Righttruth said:

You know, I don't deny nor think lightly of the words of Jesus. The very fact you have some statistics of the number of times KOH and KOG are uttered clearly proves your obsession with the words, not the life of a believer.

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righttruth,

1. This has nothing to do with denying or thinking lightly of the words of Jesus. The whole bible must not be denied and not thought of lightly so those comments are irrelevant. The bible is to be understood in the proper perspective.

2. The number of times Jesus mentioned the KOH and the KOG proves that his whole message and them was contained in the KOH and the KOG message and the restoration of all things of which Israel was to be at the head of the nations. Isaiah 2:1-4; Isaiah 9:6-7. Isaiah 66:6-7. Jesus words: Matthew mentioned the KOH; Matthew 4:17; Matthew 5:3-10; 19,20, Matthew 6:10. Just these show that all of these verses cover from Matthew 4-7 alone and it shows that it was the theme of his message to the jews.

3. Matthew 10:6-7 was about the KOH message only for the jews for the gentiles had no covenant. The church has their place in the kingdom as priest and rulers etc. but Israel the nation will be at the head of the nation with Christ and David and Abraham and the 12 apostles who will rule over the tribes of Israel. Read Matthew 19:28. Matthew 13 is all devoted to the KOH message and connected with the end of the world.

4. This is because Israel rejected Christ the first time but in the end will obey him and God will separate the tares and the wheat. Matthew 25 is about the KOH and the judgement of nations. Matthew 24:14; the gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come. The jews have to be purged to fulfill their covenants and not the church and this goes in line with Daniel 9:24-27.

5. The gospel of the kingdom will be what Jesus preached to the jews the first time. But in the future tribulation it will be that the jews national light will almost be snuffed out and they will be proclaiming the gospel of the kingdom which will be for the most part Jesus is coming to establish the kingdom for they will recognize that they missed the suffering savior and he will not conquer their enemies and the nations until they are obedient unto God. This will culminate in the battle of Armageddon and Revelation 1:7 says :

6. Behold he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen. This is the crux of the context of Revelation and it deals with the Jews coming back to God and when the proclaim Messiah is coming to take over the nations and make them the capitol of the world this will inflame the nations who are under the Antichrist spell and God will wipe them out with the breath of his coming. Revelations 11:15 talks about the kingdoms of this world will become the Kingdoms of our Lord and Christ and he shall reign forever.


7. So you have no ground to stand on that the KOH and the KOG is not important. It is what was lost in the garden of Eden and was to be restored through Jesus ministry and the KOG was restored at the cross but the physical KOH will be restored at the end of the tribulation as told in Matthew 13 by Jesus.

8. You pick and choose what part of Jesus words you think is important and viable. This is denying Jesus words that you say you so strongly believe in and what you think is not important is Jesus words about the KOH and the KOG when it the most important to understand of what he is teaching and that is was for the jews only according to their covenants. Again you are a walking contradiction of what your words say and mean that are opposite to the truth of God's words. Jerry Kelso

Righttruth said:

Right now anyone interested in statistics, not spirituality, can count the number of times you have used KOH & KOG, death and resurrection in your replies. That is how pastors fill up their time in their sermons instead of leading a life that pleases Jesus with the expected sacrifice

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righttruth,

1. You are not interested in rightly dividing the word and this shows up in your lack of interest to show scriptural context.

2. The hardening of a heart is when one hears the truth over and over again and refuses it. It is called rejection of truth and of correction by the truth.

3. One can call another a liar as a general statement and it might be true and it might not be true. If one commits an act of lying it has to be substantiated and understood in the proper context of what happened.

4. For example you imply that anyone interested in statistics, not spirituality can count the number of time you have used KOH and KOG, death and resurrection in my replies. This is a general accusation that because I repeat about the KOH and the KOG,etc., it only appeals to those who believe in statistics and not spirituality. Then you use an example of this is the way pastors fill up their time in their sermons instead of leading a life that pleases Jesus with the expected sacrifice.

5. If you read the context and the scriptural foundation and backup I give you would know it is spiritual and not for statistic wise only. Statistics as you call it is to show how important that message was. Jesus thought it was mighty important to mention it throughout his 3 years of ministry but I don't hear you getting on to Jesus as wanting to be statistical and not spiritual. Another one of your contradictions.

6. Your example of the pastors repetition is not always the case for how many times have pastors given an altar call for people to come to Christ and sang Just As I Am and nobody ever came forward. And their repetitive messages as you would call it were about leading the life to Jesus with the expected sacrifice not about the KOH or the KOG.

7. At the same time Billy Graham preached a simple message of the cross and resurrection and thousands and millions of people would get saved and he would be repetitive in some manners and considered repetitive in his overall message for his entire ministry and that is not a bad thing because he was an evangelist and had only a small window of time to get them saved and then discipleship had to come from the churches and this is why he had the support of the churches and for new converts to be able to be discipled. Are you going to get onto Billy Graham because of his repetitiveness? Shame on anyone with that type of thinking.

8. Leaving generalizations in the air floating around like you do implies you are stereotyping every preacher or most preachers etc.
Once again you are a walking contradiction and are being very dishonest in your posts and handling of the truth.
Do you understand hermeneutics at all or think that is important because if you don't then you are not trying to rightly divide the word. It is just what you think it says in what understanding you have or what you think the Holy Spirit says to you is right. Why should we believe that you hear from the Holy Spirit when you don't agree with what the Holy Spirit is to lead us into the truth?
All I ask is to be fair in true scriptural debate and rebuttal and you cannot do that. This is one reason for these forums but you want to abuse that and why? Be fair for a change. Jerry kelso

Righttruth said:

Why should my answer satisfy you? It got nothing to do with salvation. OK, you explain, and let me see whether it is OK with my thinking.

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I'm not asking for an answer to "satisfy me," or what you personally do.

What I'm asking you is simple: What does it mean to rely on the works of the law?

Actually, let's make it even easier. Let's take the works of the law out of it altogether and ask: what does it mean to "rely on"?

Righttruth said:

I was expecting this with your Pentecostal background. That is how business minded and political Zionists got the support to establish the state of Israel with an unilateral declaration of independence in 1948. Deluded Christians started braying that is the fulfillment of prophecy! Nominal Protestants, who believe in redundant OT and Pauline appendix with total ignorance of the words of Jesus and the Gospel that cursed Israel, continue to support the bloodthirsty Jews that has led to international terrorism! Sorry, I can't stand this nonsense! Don't expect anymore response from me. Goodbye.

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righttruth,

1. You are stereotyping again because you have no answer. This has nothing to do with my Pentecostal background.
I believe in proper hermeneutics and learned from an apostle who went to seminary but was tutored also by a jewish rabbi who was saved in his ministry.

2. 1948 Israel became a nation was once again but I never said that was a fulfillment of prophecy.
The bible says we are to befriend the nation of Israel because blessing Israel we are blessed.

3. The only one being deluded is your posts for you accuse falsely and stereotype wrongly which means your effort of deducing what I or others have said are wrong and are not scripturally based. You don't need to respond anymore because you don't want to answer fairly. You expect everyone else to answer to your opinions and rebut all your fables but you don't like it when one of us hold your feet to the fire by expecting proper debate and rebuttal according to the scripture. The post will be better if you don't respond if you are going to fill the posts without scriptural context. Jerry kelso