How should a "Christian" deal with "heretics"?

[ToBeLoved]

YOU think that billions of intelligent people spend hours and hours per week talking to something that is not there. They talk to Allah, Shiva, or do whatever other stuff their faith tells them to do.

I did not comment on them. You are the one making the basic assumption that there is no God at all.

I said it is up to God, but that God says those who have the Holy Spirit are His children and I gave verses.

Whatever you take that to mean, have at it.

 

[ToBeLoved]

YOU think that billions of intelligent people spend hours and hours per week talking to something that is not there. They talk to Allah, Shiva, or do whatever other stuff their faith tells them to do.
So, are you calling all these people "idiots"? Please consider and ANSWER this question.

I don't make my own judgements on what or how God will judge others. God says that He is the only perfect and righteous judge, because only He sees the heart and mind of people.

I actually trust my God that He makes good decisions.

James 4:12
12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

 

[Freodin]

I did not comment on them. You are the one making the basic assumption that there is no God at all.

Yes, I make that assumption.
And you make the claim that, because I/atheists make this assumption, I/atheists think Christians are idiots.

That is wrong. This simple example about people from other religions shows that you are wrong. And somehow you do everything not to admit it. It's amazing, especially after what you wrong in your last post: "...not afraid to admit if I am wrong."

Individual atheists can think Christians are idiots. That is there personal belief.
Atheists are not in general required to think of Christians (or other religious people) as idiots.
You are wrong.

I said it is up to God, but that God says those who have the Holy Spirit are His children and I gave verses.

Whatever you take that to mean, have at it.

To go back to your first sentence here on the quoted post: you do not comment on things that I did refer to... and you DO comment on things that I never mentioned, asked for, implied or in any other way hinted at.

I really try to keep it simple. But I admit I have no idea how to talk to you.

 

[ToBeLoved]

And you are wrong. You were corrected on that. You might want to acknowledge your mistake. (And BTW: you are on the internet. It took me a 5 seconds google search to find multiple sources.)


And you are WRONG on that.

YOU think that billions of intelligent people spend hours and hours per week talking to something that is not there. They talk to Allah, Shiva, or do whatever other stuff their faith tells them to do.

So, are you calling all these people "idiots"? Please consider and ANSWER this question.
Do you think that all non-Christians are idiots... or are they just wrong?


And again you are wrong. Atheists don not "rationalize that there is nothing there." Atheists do not think that there are any GODS there.

And if you consider that there are "WAY to many" people and smart intelligent people who think that there ARE Gods there... but not YOUR God... the atheists position is not that different.

Maybe we should just end our conversation here. It seems we are not really having a conversation and you seem to be very upset towards Christians in general.

I was only trying to give you some feedback on your questions, but since it's not edifying or good for you, then I will let you go.

God bless you.

 

[Freodin]

I don't make my own judgements on what or how God will judge others. God says that He is the only perfect and righteous judge, because only He sees the heart and mind of people.

I actually trust my God that He makes good decisions.

James 4:12
12 There is only one Lawgiver and Judge, the one who is able to save and destroy. But you—who are you to judge your neighbor?

I didn't ask you to judge how God judged others. I asked YOU what YOU think of people of other religions.

Do you believe that they are having a relationship with their respective deities? Do you think that their practices or rituals have indeed some deep and fulfilling meaning for them?

Or do you think that they all "talk to nothing"?

Because that is what you accused atheists of thinking about Christians. Before you point out the splinter in your eye... notice the beam in your own.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Yes, I make that assumption.
And you make the claim that, because I/atheists make this assumption, I/atheists think Christians are idiots.

That is wrong. This simple example about people from other religions shows that you are wrong. And somehow you do everything not to admit it. It's amazing, especially after what you wrong in your last post: "...not afraid to admit if I am wrong."

Individual atheists can think Christians are idiots. That is there personal belief.
Atheists are not in general required to think of Christians (or other religious people) as idiots.
You are wrong.


To go back to your first sentence here on the quoted post: you do not comment on things that I did refer to... and you DO comment on things that I never mentioned, asked for, implied or in any other way hinted at.

I really try to keep it simple. But I admit I have no idea how to talk to you.

lol. My opinions and beliefs are MY OWN.

You can disagree with my choices, disagree with my opinions, but it doesn't matter what anyone else believes. It's ok. I'm very ok with your disagreeing with me. But that doesn't mean I'm wrong. No one knows who is wrong until death, so it is irrational to tell me I am wrong when you cannot prove it.

Now your really irritating me.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I didn't ask you to judge how God judged others. I asked YOU what YOU think of people of other religions.

Do you believe that they are having a relationship with their respective deities? Do you think that their practices or rituals have indeed some deep and fulfilling meaning for them?

Or do you think that they all "talk to nothing"?

Because that is what you accused atheists of thinking about Christians. Before you point out the splinter in your eye... notice the beam in your own.

I don't know if they do or not. I mean God can send His Son as a prophet or something maybe, but I don't really speculate because they make a free will decision, just as I do. I am responsible for my views and beliefs and each person is responsible for theirs.

Some people waste so much time in life in these "What if ...." conversations, but I would rather live my life according to my beliefs and values.

It's like thinking "What if I win the lottery". Well, thinking about it brings desire to have the things you could buy, but if you don't have money, what is the good of dreaming of something you do not have. It only makes us long for what we don't have. I would rather work with what I do have and if more comes my way... great. If it doesn't.... great.

 

[Freodin]

lol. My opinions and beliefs are MY OWN.

You can disagree with my choices, disagree with my opinions, but it doesn't matter what anyone else believes. It's ok. I'm very ok with your disagreeing with me. But that doesn't mean I'm wrong. No one knows who is wrong until death, so it is irrational to tell me I am wrong when you cannot prove it.

Now your really irritating me.

You don't really believe that, do you? I really hope you do not.

Say, are you really THAT incapable of considering other people beyond yourself? Can you just for a second imagine what this means, if other people act the same.

My beliefs are MY OWN. I think that ToBeLoved is a horrible person who gets a kick off making fun on sincere questioners on a discussion forum. A troll of the worst kind.

This isn't true, right? You are not a troll, right? You are not making fun of me, right?

Hey, well, you disagree... but that doesn't mean I am wrong. You cannot prove that I am wrong, therefore I am right in my opinion.

See... here I am, telling you that I don't think Christians are idiots. I am telling you that nothing in atheism makes or requires you to think that Christians are idiots.

I am PROVING TO YOU, by using yourself as an example of how someone can think another person in wrong without thinking they are all idiots... and you respond with "you cannot prove I am wrong."

I am baffled.

 

[ToBeLoved]

You don't really believe that, do you? I really hope you do not.

Say, are you really THAT incapable of considering other people beyond yourself? Can you just for a second imagine what this means, if other people act the same.

My beliefs are MY OWN. I think that ToBeLoved is a horrible person who gets a kick off making fun on sincere questioners on a discussion forum. A troll of the worst kind.

This isn't true, right? You are not a troll, right? You are not making fun of me, right?

Hey, well, you disagree... but that doesn't mean I am wrong. You cannot prove that I am wrong, therefore I am right in my opinion.

See... here I am, telling you that I don't think Christians are idiots. I am telling you that nothing in atheism makes or requires you to think that Christians are idiots.

I am PROVING TO YOU, by using yourself as an example of how someone can think another person in wrong without thinking they are all idiots... and you respond with "you cannot prove I am wrong."

I am baffled.

Ok. I think that someone can think another person is wrong without thinking they are idiots.

So let's leave it there.

 

[Freodin]

I don't know if they do or not. I mean God can send His Son as a prophet or something maybe, but I don't really speculate because they make a free will decision, just as I do. I am responsible for my views and beliefs and each person is responsible for theirs.

Some people waste so much time in life in these "What if ...." conversations, but I would rather live my life according to my beliefs and values.

It's like thinking "What if I win the lottery". Well, thinking about it brings desire to have the things you could buy, but if you don't have money, what is the good of dreaming of something you do not have. It only makes us long for what we don't have. I would rather work with what I do have and if more comes my way... great. If it doesn't.... great.

This is not what I am asking about.

You said: "... to think we could not tell if we had a relationship and conversations with God, rather than air, is calling US idiots."

So, YOU can tell if you have a relationship and conversation with God. (I think you are mistaken, but I will concede that you are convinced that you do.)

But now there are other persons, who disagree with your faith, and tell YOU "what, you think that we cannot tell if we had a relationship and conversation with our respective God? Are you telling us idiots?"

See, you are doing exactly that to others, what you claim atheists are doing to you: disregarding their personal faith.

If disregarding other people's faith mean that you are calling them idiots... then YOU are calling them idiots.
If it doesn't mean you must think they are idiots... then neither does others disregarding YOUR faith means they consider you an idiot.

Can I make it any more clear?

 

[Freodin]

Ok. I think that someone can think another person is wrong without thinking they are idiots.

So let's leave it there.

Hurray! Ok, it's very late here now, and I call it quits.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Hurray! Ok, it's very late here now, and I call it quits.

God bless you Freodin. Even though you don't want it lol.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Let’s keep this about God.

I am.

An atheist "chooses" god about as much as the victim in my analogy "chooses" to be shot in the head.

I really don’t want to veer off into a bunch of scenarios that are nothing like salvation.
Your not making the choice I do. No blackmail here. No gun, no bullet, no death by bullet.

"believe this, or else"

"give me your wallet, or else"

 

[DogmaHunter]

Yes. Fully God and fully man.

Right.

So the whole thing wasn't a big deal at all.
He could do it a trillion times over and it wouldn't affect him at all.
He also didn't die. This god in your theology is not even immortal: he's eternal.
He can't die.

His all thing that you call a "sacrifice" was thus nothing but a big show-off.
None of it makes any sense.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Well and that is a difference of opinion.

I'm not going to go home and cry because you think I'm irrational though.

No, it's not an opinion.

Believing things on faith, are not rational beliefs. Because they are beliefs that aren't based on evidence.

There is literally nothing that you can't believe on faith.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Again. Your opinion. You have the free will to make your choices and I have the same free will to make mine.

Again, not an opinion.
Rational beliefs are beliefs that are based on rational evidence.
Faith, is what you need to appeal to when you have no evidence.
So how could faith be a rational basis for belief?

I think it is much more rational to believe that God created everything than to know that science cannot explain life or how the universe came into existence

That's an argument from ignorance / incredulity.
A logical fallacy. By definition, irrational.

, yet you hang your hat on science.

Science is demonstrably the best tool we have to find out how things work.
It's very rational to "hang your hat" on science.
Without science, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

But more importantly, when you don't know something, then you don't know. Appealing to that ignorance to say "therefor god", is about as irrational as it gets.

At least God is a full explanation

No. God is a faith-based assertion.
An explanation, actually explains.

Science begins where God let science begin, which is not having the answers. So says God's Word.

So says the bible. And if the bible says that, then the bible also engages in logical fallacies.

Romans 1:18-23
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

Your bible is the source of the claims you believe on faith. You can't use it as evidence. That's circular reasoning. Which is also a fallacy. And thus irrational.



Isn't it ironic that the very post where you try to argue that your theistic beliefs aren't irrational, you actually try to defend it with logical fallacy after logical fallacy?

 

[DogmaHunter]

The number of Christians is by a Pew Internet study.

God's children are those who have the Holy Spirit. Could be more than what Pew Internet says, could be less. I'm not God.

In continuation of the logical fallacies, you're also using the argument from popularity.
So that's 4 logical fallacies in just 2 posts, in which you ironically are trying to argue that your beliefs are rational.

Argument from ignorance.
Argument from incredulity.
Argument from popularity.
Circular reasoning.

So yea.....

 

[DogmaHunter]

I did not comment on them. You are the one making the basic assumption that there is no God at all.

I'm sorry, but no.
The assumption is entirely in the camp of theists.
Theists assume a god exists. They believe it on faith.
I make no such assumptions because I have no valid reason (evidence) to assume that.
So I don't believe it.

I said it is up to God, but that God says those who have the Holy Spirit are His children and I gave verses.

Atheists are aware of what the bible says, but more importantly, atheists don't believe the bible is the word of a god. Atheists consider the bible to be of human hand, just like you christians believe all other holy books from other religions are from human hand.

Quoting me verses from the bible, will have the same effect on me as quoting the quran or bagavad ghita will have on you.

 

[Par5]

Again. Your opinion. You have the free will to make your choices and I have the same free will to make mine.

I think it is much more rational to believe that God created everything than to know that science cannot explain life or how the universe came into existence, yet you hang your hat on science.

To me, that is very irrational. At least God is a full explanation. Science begins where God let science begin, which is not having the answers. So says God's Word.

Again. Your opinion. You have the free will to make your choices and I have the same free will to make mine.

I think it is much more rational to believe that God created everything than to know that science cannot explain life or how the universe came into existence, yet you hang your hat on science.

To me, that is very irrational. At least God is a full explanation. Science begins where God let science begin, which is not having the answers. So says God's Word.

Romans 1:18-23
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God or give thanks, but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

24Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, so that their bodies would be dishonored among them. 25For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

If I believed in your god the only way I could imagine I had free will would be if god was not omniscient. Christians talk about things being part of god's plan which strikes me as being an interference in the way we behave and what we do. Most of all, I can never get my head around why a supposedly omniscient being would create something and being omniscient know even before he started his creation that he would destroy it and start again, blaming the creation for what was his own design fault. It doesn't make sense. The bible talks of god being initially pleased with his creation, that pleasure turning to displeasure and the decision to destroy his creation. Why would a supposedly omniscient being experience these very human emotions? Did both these thing take him by surprise? On a human level, if you watch a good thriller movie and the killer is not revealed until the very end and the killer was the last person anyone expected, it would be a great surprise. If you watched the movie again, the end result would no longer be a surprise for the very simple reason that you already knew the ending.
The biblical account of a supposedly omniscient creator doing the things that he did just makes no sense to me.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Science is demonstrably the best tool we have to find out how things work.
It's very rational to "hang your hat" on science.
Without science, we wouldn't be having this conversation.
?

Faith and belief in God existed way before science.

And you only logically know what you say you know because science has progressed to this point and God uses science as part of His plan. God created all these things. Science created nothing. It is mankind’s way of rationalizing what they have no idea of.

Now that is not rational. A half baked understanding that can only explain what previously existed.

Science doesn’t explain where anything began. So you still only have theories of the most important part.