How should a "Christian" deal with "heretics"?

[ToBeLoved]

Why would I mind you thinking about me?



Maybe gather some extra folk and make a day out of it? I vote for a nice bbq in my honor.
Call it "saving dogmahunter day".




"and if you don't believe that, he'll send you to hell to suffer for eternity!"



I require a valid reason to change my mind first.
Got any?

Each person has a different understanding of what they see as valid.

What I do know from my own walk with God is that God is not a tyrant that people without belief make Him out to be.

What God offers each of us (you too) is a free gift. The free gift of salvation in His Son who paid a very high price to redeem us. The only thing that God asks of us is faith.

When the Bible somewhat defines faith, it is hope in the Lord. His mercy on each of us, that He would pay such a high price for us. Jesus laid aside His Perfect Divinity to come into this harsh cruel world and suffer for each of our sins and those who accept His free gift, He is their Advocate and stands in their place in perfect holiness.

Faith, IMHO, is not some proven thing, but those who have God do notice spiritual changes that cannot be described. I do understand though that that is not proof to many, although since they have never given God a chance, they can say it is nothing but they have no experience to compare it to as their is no comparable experience.

The issue I see most is when people try to impress God on their own merits. Christ didn’t die for us that we walk alone or do everything on our own merits.

Christ is called Emanuel, which is God with us. That is how God designed it to be in the New Covenant. But many people do not walk WITH God, but instead walk FOR God, plodding along trying to be religious and keep a bunch of rules. And these people burn out sometimes because it is a hard life and God didn’t set it up for us to walk alone.

So, that is also why prayer is important. If I’m doing everything myself or depending on myself I don’t need God at a very high level.

So if what you want is scientific evidence for agods existence I’m not sure that exists. The Bible doesn’t say that God shows us His existence maybe in the way some people would like.

But then God asks for faith. And God tells us that if we are in need to go to the throne and petition Him (or ask and pray). I do believe in asking God for more faith if that is what a person needs.

The Bible says, “Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened” but it must come from us in seeking and we do find.

I hope this helps in some way.

 

[Par5]

Each person has a different understanding of what they see as valid.

What I do know from my own walk with God is that God is not a tyrant that people without belief make Him out to be.

What God offers each of us (you too) is a free gift. The free gift of salvation in His Son who paid a very high price to redeem us. The only thing that God asks of us is faith.

When the Bible somewhat defines faith, it is hope in the Lord. His mercy on each of us, that He would pay such a high price for us. Jesus laid aside His Perfect Divinity to come into this harsh cruel world and suffer for each of our sins and those who accept His free gift, He is their Advocate and stands in their place in perfect holiness.

Faith, IMHO, is not some proven thing, but those who have God do notice spiritual changes that cannot be described. I do understand though that that is not proof to many, although since they have never given God a chance, they can say it is nothing but they have no experience to compare it to as their is no comparable experience.

The issue I see most is when people try to impress God on their own merits. Christ didn’t die for us that we walk alone or do everything on our own merits.

Christ is called Emanuel, which is God with us. That is how God designed it to be in the New Covenant. But many people do not walk WITH God, but instead walk FOR God, plodding along trying to be religious and keep a bunch of rules. And these people burn out sometimes because it is a hard life and God didn’t set it up for us to walk alone.

So, that is also why prayer is important. If I’m doing everything myself or depending on myself I don’t need God at a very high level.

So if what you want is scientific evidence for agods existence I’m not sure that exists. The Bible doesn’t say that God shows us His existence maybe in the way some people would like.

But then God asks for faith. And God tells us that if we are in need to go to the throne and petition Him (or ask and pray). I do believe in asking God for more faith if that is what a person needs.

The Bible says, “Seek and you will find, knock and the door will be opened” but it must come from us in seeking and we do find.

I hope this helps in some way.

What may I ask was the high price you say your god's son paid on our behalf. According to the bible, he suffered a very unpleasant death by crucifixion, but then a few days later was back in the land of the living? Not really a sacrifice when you can magic yourself back to life again. An example of a real sacrifice is the sacrifice of young men who die in foreign fields fighting terrorism. No one goes to their loved ones and tells them that their son/husband/father has been killed in action, but not to worry, give it a couple of days and he will be back with you good as new.
I have to say that I find the bible story regarding the biblical god setting his son up for a cruel death by crucifixion as some kind of atonement for the world's shortcomings to be totally repulsive. What kind of father would even consider doing such a thing?

 

[Freodin]

Believers simply do not understand that this whole tale of "Christ" and all the Christian system is an abolute horror story without that "faith" that it will all be ok.

And they do not understand that, as much as they want it otherwise, for us unbelievers it is offering a solution for a non-existent problem.

I stopped believing in the monsters under my bed long ago, and so I also no longer believe that my blanket will protect me from their paws.

 

[ToBeLoved]

What may I ask was the high price you say your god's son paid on our behalf. According to the bible, he suffered a very unpleasant death by crucifixion, but then a few days later was back in the land of the living? Not really a sacrifice when you can magic yourself back to life again. An example of a real sacrifice is the sacrifice of young men who die in foreign fields fighting terrorism. No one goes to their loved ones and tells them that their son/husband/father has been killed in action, but not to worry, give it a couple of days and he will be back with you good as new.
I have to say that I find the bible story regarding the biblical god setting his son up for a cruel death by crucifixion as some kind of atonement for the world's shortcomings to be totally repulsive. What kind of father would even consider doing such a thing?

That’s actually a good question.

The answer is twofold.

First is that Jesus took upon Himself all the sins of the world. I’m not sure exactly what pain that was but from the Bible it indicates He was not particularly looking forward to it.

Second is at that time when Jesus was atoning for our sin, it is the first and only time that He was separated from the Father. Because the Father is perfect and Holy.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Believers simply do not understand that this whole tale of "Christ" and all the Christian system is an abolute horror story without that "faith" that it will all be ok.

And they do not understand that, as much as they want it otherwise, for us unbelievers it is offering a solution for a non-existent problem.

I stopped believing in the monsters under my bed long ago, and so I also no longer believe that my blanket will protect me from their paws.

I see your point and I can only speak for myself but whether you find God or not gives me nothing as far as who I am in God.

I know that sounds crass, but it is for you, not me. Where you spend eternity is not my problem, so in a very crass way I know my eternity and it is only out of concern for a fellow human being that your unbelief affects me or any other Christian at all.

I am not told by God to make every person I meet a believer. I am not judged by God on the outcome of your choice.

What God tells us to do is share the Good News that Jesus died for all people. Any who call on Him, He will not turn away. To share with you what I have in Christ.

As long as I do that, whether you convert to Christianity or stay an atheist is only a preference for me wanting you to have what I have.

We share the gospel but no one is holding a gun to your head.

 

[Freodin]

I see your point and I can only speak for myself but whether you find God or not gives me nothing as far as who I am in God.

Your answer tells me very clearly that you do not see my point. But I understand why you cannot.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Your answer tells me very clearly that you do not see my point. But I understand why you cannot.

Well I tried. You don’t explain yourself particularly well, but maybe that is why you word things that way, so it doesn’t make sense. Someone can not understand what is badly communicated.

I hope you find whatever it is your looking for or have found it already.

God bless you

 

[DogmaHunter]

Each person has a different understanding of what they see as valid.

Especially if they aren't all that rational or when they have emotional investment.
What is valid and what isn't in formal logic and argumentation however, isn't really a subjective thingy.

What God offers each of us (you too) is a free gift. The free gift of salvation in His Son who paid a very high price to redeem us. The only thing that God asks of us is faith.

First of all, if he asks something of us, then it isn't free.
Secondly, no, Jesus didn't pay any price at all. Being an all powerfull immortal god, it means nothing at all to inhabit a human body for a while and have it killed. He could do it a trillion times over and then some.

Thirdly, whenever faith is required, that's the first hint that something fishy is going on. Forget about religion for a second and think about in what circumstances people will demand "faith" of you. Horoscopes, crystal healing, fortune telling, communication with the dead, hand reading, psychics,..... In short: con-men. Con-men, and bad sales people.

Faith is about the best way there is, to end up with false beliefs.

As Mark Twain (i believe) once said: Faith, is belief in those things that you know ain't true.

I do understand though that that is not proof to many, although since they have never given God a chance, they can say it is nothing but they have no experience to compare it to as their is no comparable experience.

See, this is another hole in your case. The "never given god a chance" thing, is obviously false. I'll give on example because he's so famous (or infamous): Matt Dilahunty. The dude was a fundamentalist baptist for some 25 years. He was studying to become a pastor/preacher/whatever-it's-called.

He studied a little too well and had unanswered questions. He started digging. As he was digging, no answers were forthcoming and only more questions arised. To the point that he began to ask himself why he believes it all. Failing to come up with a proper reason, he slowly turned atheist. Today, he is a host of The Atheist Experience TV show.

He sure gave God a try. In his fundy days, he was preaching the same things you are saying now. Knowing him, I dare say that he was probably even a lot better at it then you.

Why is it, that it is so unthinkable for you that it is possible that people gave your religion an honest and open minded chance and walked away not believing? Especially since you seem to realise that it's all about faith as opposed to evidence.

So if what you want is scientific evidence for agods existence I’m not sure that exists

I'm quite sure that it doesn't exist.

But then God asks for faith

No, the bible asks that. So does the tarrot reader around the corner. And the muslim accross the street.

I hope this helps in some way.

Not at all. "faith" is simply not a good reason to accept something as true. It just isn't. If that is all your religion has to offer, I can honestly tell you that I'll never be a part of it. And not because I don't want to. But because I physically can't. I can not bring myself to accept something as true without valid reason, without something to actually convince me of such.

I could say I believe, but I'ld be lying.

 

[DogmaHunter]

That’s actually a good question.

The answer is twofold.

First is that Jesus took upon Himself all the sins of the world. I’m not sure exactly what pain that was but from the Bible it indicates He was not particularly looking forward to it.

Second is at that time when Jesus was atoning for our sin, it is the first and only time that He was separated from the Father. Because the Father is perfect and Holy.

But Jesus, IS god, right?

 

[DogmaHunter]

We share the gospel but no one is holding a gun to your head.

Well, that's not exactly true, is it?

Because what happens if you don't accept the gospel?
I dare say that what happens according to your theology, is much much MUCH worse then what happens in our worldview if we get just shot in the brain.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Especially if they aren't all that rational or when they have emotional investment.
What is valid and what isn't in formal logic and argumentation however, isn't really a subjective thingy.

It is interesting talking to atheists in one way, they all act like they are the most rational human beings. Many Christians are very rational. You act like just because we believe in God and have faith that is irrational. It’s not. It’s not like we are talking and praying to air or ourselves. The foolishness is that you believe the 3.4 Billion Christians on the earth right now are idiots.

One might say that people that believe there is not a creator are irrational because science cannot explain how the universe or life began.

Everything in science can only be explained after God created it.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Well, that's not exactly true, is it?

Because what happens if you don't accept the gospel?
I dare say that what happens according to your theology, is much much MUCH worse then what happens in our worldview if we get just shot in the brain.

Come on now.

Your an adult and you make choices every day. You use your free will as a human being to decide.

God is their with open arms.

If you make your choice to stand in front of a Holy God on your own sinful merits, then a Holy God can accept nothing less than Holiness.

It’s your choice to stand on your own sinful merits.

I’m not standing on my sinful merits. Jesus Christ, perfect and Holy is my Advocate.

It’s your choice. Take responsibility for that choice.

 

[ToBeLoved]

I dare say that what happens according to your theology, is much much MUCH worse then what happens in our worldview if we get just shot in the brain.

It is not “my theology”.

The Torah (first 5 books of the Old Testament) has been around since Judaism began.

The New Testament over 1,700 years.

Let’s not act like this is some new thing.

It may seem new to you, but it is in no way new or my theology

 

[DogmaHunter]

It is interesting talking to atheists in one way, they all act like they are the most rational human beings.

Ow not at all. I'm sorry if that is the impression you got. No, clearly atheists are more then capable of believing nonsense, surely.

However, I do actively try and stay as rational as possible. I actively try not to let emotion etc cloud my judgement. Surely I'm not always succesfull at it.

But as far as theism goes, the actual belief in the religious claims, yes - i have no problem at all saying that on that specific subject, theists are being irrational and atheists are being rational. Well, no, I should qualify that.... if the atheist is being rational, would actually depend on why they don't believe.

If their reason for not believing is "a goblin from another dimension told me that there are no gods", then I wouldn't exactly call that rational.

Many Christians are very rational.

Sure. You are to, in most aspects of your life, I'ld guess.
But when it comes to belief in the religious claims? Not really.

Appealing to faith to accept things as true, is never rational.
Faith as a basis for belief, is by definition irrational.

You act like just because we believe in God and have faith that is irrational. It’s not.

Sorry, but it is.
You believe fantastical things without a shred of objective evidence. You have faith. Which means that you "just believe" for no particular objective reason. That's not rational.

It’s not like we are talking and praying to air or ourselves.

Actually, just about every study of prayer suggested otherwise.

The foolishness is that you believe the 3.4 Billion Christians on the earth right now are idiots.

As far as it concerns belief in those specific claims, yes. Although you were the one that used that word - I stick to irrational, but i'm happy to use your word.

I don't think this is insulting. I'm sure I hold some idiotic beliefs as well. I'm not perfect. I'm not a vulcan with awesome logical powers. I'm human too. And even though I try not to, I to will be guided by emotion rather then rational reasoning at times.

One might say that people that believe there is not a creator are irrational because science cannot explain how the universe or life began.

Only if one wouldn't mind engaging in a massively fallacious argument from ignorance or incredulity.

See? Irrational...
Logical fallacies are not the way to argue rationally.

Everything in science can only be explained after God created it.

That's what you believe on faith. But it clearly isn't true.
The universe is what it is and can be studied. No matter how it came into existance. It still exist and we can study it.

 

[DogmaHunter]

Come on now.

Your an adult and you make choices every day. You use your free will as a human being to decide.

God is their with open arms.

If you make your choice to stand in front of a Holy God on your own sinful merits, then a Holy God can accept nothing less than Holiness.

It’s your choice to stand on your own sinful merits.

I’m not standing on my sinful merits. Jesus Christ, perfect and Holy is my Advocate.

It’s your choice. Take responsibility for that choice.

Blackmail, is not a choice. And certainly not a free one.

When I hold a gun to your head and ask for your wallet and you refuse after which I pull the trigger, then you did not just commit suicide.

 

[DogmaHunter]

It is not “my theology”.

Well, it's certainly not the theology of a muslim or a hindu....

The Torah (first 5 books of the Old Testament) has been around since Judaism began.
The New Testament over 1,700 years.
Let’s not act like this is some new thing.
It may seem new to you, but it is in no way new or my theology

Your theology as in the theology of the religion that you follow, obviously.
Let's not play stupid.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Well, that's not exactly true, is it?

Because what happens if you don't accept the gospel?
I dare say that what happens according to your theology, is much much MUCH worse then what happens in our worldview if we get just shot in the brain.

God doesn’t tell us everything and God doesn’t tell us that He tells us everything.

God does say that in the afterlife everything hidden will be made known. There will be nothing that is not known or unknown.

So maybe that will be hell. People knowing in their lifetime they could have known God and spent eternity with God, but chose not to. Maybe it’s some really bad regret at what they missed.

Maybe it is knowing what we have in heaven and not having that joy.

Or maybe it is the others that are there with them. I know we will receive new bodies made for heaven. Maybe you guys will just hang out with others like yourselves. People really [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse]ed and full of anger and regret.

I’m not big on saying what exactly he’ll is myself. I find too many ppl use it as a scare tactic and that’s not what Christ is about. It’s about the opportunity NOW.

The focus should be on our lives and choices while we are alive. After your dead, salvation or the gift is gone. Then you will be in front of God.

 

[ToBeLoved]

Blackmail, is not a choice. And certainly not a free one.

When I hold a gun to your head and ask for your wallet and you refuse after which I pull the trigger, then you did not just commit suicide.

Let’s keep this about God.

I really don’t want to veer off into a bunch of scenarios that are nothing like salvation.

Your not making the choice I do. No blackmail here. No gun, no bullet, no death by bullet.

 

[Freodin]

Well I tried. You don’t explain yourself particularly well, but maybe that is why you word things that way, so it doesn’t make sense. Someone can not understand what is badly communicated.

Oh, I know that in a lot of instances, the speaker is to blame when the receiver does not understand. That doesn't absolve the receiver from trying though... and refraining from always blaming the speaker.

So, I don't think you don't understand because I "communicated it badly". Other people here did understand it very well. It is because you cannot understand. You cannot do it, because that would mean that, for a second, you would have to leave your preconceived ideas out of it.
You would really have to see it from the viewpoint of someone who does not believe in your religion.

And this is something that you cannot do.
It is a difficult feat for most people, but for someone who is are completely convinced of a certain worldview, it is almost impossible.

But that is the problem of "spreading the Good News". You basically speak a languge that the others do not understand... and then you blame them for not understanding it. And then you wonder why they don't listen to you. And, final step, you absolve yourself from any responsibility of being listened to.

Not all atheists are "more rational" than believers. But a lot of atheists have spend a lot of time pondering this topic... and Christians simply do not have a clue how to talk to this kind of atheists.

I understand it. I don't blame you. You cannot do what is beyond you.

 

[Freodin]

God doesn’t tell us everything and God doesn’t tell us that He tells us everything.

Matt 7:7 Ask and it will be given to you; seek and you will find; knock and the door will be opened to you.
8 For everyone who asks receives; the one who seeks finds; and to the one who knocks, the door will be opened.
9 Which of you, if your son asks for bread, will give him a stone?
10 Or if he asks for a fish, will give him a snake?
11 If you, then, though you are evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father in heaven give good gifts to those who ask him!

That seems to contradict you.