How secular family values stack up

[Kenny'sID]

Are you saying that it's wrong to discuss a concept/idea/belief that you don't personally believe in or believe is true?

Of course not...they have right to discuss whatever they like, as I have a right to discuss there reasoning and in this case why they are even bothering, especially when I think they are only "bothering" in order to tear down the faith of others.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Of course not...they have right to discuss whatever they like, as I have a right to discuss there reasoning and in this case why they are even bothering, especially when I think they are only "bothering" in order to tear down the faith of others.

Absolutely...of course you have that right. Just keep in mind though, that once you turn the discussion from the merits of a particular concept like hell...to the motives of a person who is examining that concept...you open yourself up to the same kind of analysis.

It would be just as easy for me to claim that you're attacking the motives of that poster because you don't have any good response to his statement about the evil of sending people to hell...so you're simply making a weak attempt to discredit him.

The fact remains that regardless of his motives in making that argument...it's a valid argument, and it's point stands.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Absolutely...of course you have that right. Just keep in mind though, that once you turn the discussion from the merits of a particular concept like hell...to the motives of a person who is examining that concept...you open yourself up to the same kind of analysis.

It would be just as easy for me to claim that you're attacking the motives of that poster because you don't have any good response to his statement about the evil of sending people to hell...so you're simply making a weak attempt to discredit him.

Are you doing that?

The fact remains that regardless of his motives in making that argument...it's a valid argument, and it's point stands.

You know, I could throw something back at you that sounds just as tangible, but there comes a time when I just don't see the point to a back and forth that will accomplish nothing.

Suffice to say, I made what I thought was a good point, disagree if you like, but it won't change a thing about what I thought of the posters comment.

 

[Ana the Ist]

Are you doing that?

Sure...why not? As long as we're speculating on the motives of individual posters...

 

[Cearbhall]

Although being good will be rewarding while in this age, it just seems like such a waste all good people don't end up in heaven.

Well, when I was Christian, I always believed they would...

 

[Kenny'sID]

Well, when I was Christian, I always believed they would...

I ran into a few posters recently that still are and believe that.

 

[Dave-W]

She was claiming that all unbelievers have "dark, evil hearts".

And that would be correct. The thing is - most believers have that same dark heart. The church has abandoned the practice of discipleship which is (in part) supposed to work that out of the believer. Very few grow up and get past the evil and darkness on their own.

 

[com7fy8]

rational problem solving,

prayerful can be more reliable

personal autonomy, independence of thought,

independence can be an idol yielding boredom and loneliness

empathy.

Yes, I do need this, with compassion > Hebrews 5:2

 

[Dave-W]

Although being good will be rewarding while in this age, it just seems like such a waste all good people don't end up in heaven.

That is the crux of works-based salvation.

 

[Dave-W]

What does that have to do with the morality of torturing someone, especially a "good person," forever and ever?

Not a "good" person, or even a "bad" person, an unbelieving person.

 

[Kenny'sID]

That is the crux of works-based salvation.

Oh, does grace only cover non-Christians now too? My how things are changing.

Given by grace...kept by obedience.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Very few grow up and get past the evil and darkness on their own.

How do you mean, "on their own"?

 

[Dave-W]

Oh, does grace only cover non-Christians now too?

2 different kinds of grace - salvic grace and sustaining grace.
Salvic for the unbeliever and sustaining for the believer. Neither are works-based.

How do you mean, "on their own"?

Without a person discipling them.

 

[Kenny'sID]

2 different kinds of grace - salvic grace and sustaining grace.
Salvic for the unbeliever and sustaining for the believer. Neither are works-based.

No idea what you are talking about.

Without a person discipling them.

Then I would disagree, got rid of a lot of the evil and darkness in me, and I would guess anyone who follows the true requirements of Christianity experienced the same changes. Not perfection, but much much better than before, and still working on it.

What will not change us is a grace only, "we can do what we want and still be saved" mentality. I mean what would be the point when we can have our cake and eat it too. That is if one believes that so-called way to salvation.

 

[Dave-W]

What will not change us is a grace only, "we can do what we want and still be saved" mentality.

Correct - and proper discipling will show a person where they are carrying that attitude; even if they are unaware of it. What is the main point of discipling?

Matt 28.20a teaching them to observe all that I commanded you;

 

[Kenny'sID]

So...who says YOU know the mind of the Sovereign of the Universe? Do you? Are you arrogant enough to say that you know what the Sovereign of the Universe is going to do in every situation? If so, then you don't need a god, you're your own god.

?

Know the mind of the Sovereign of the Universe? What ARE you doing there, lol?

I read my bible, simple.

That was great...haven't seen such a bunch of non-viable twist and turns designed to draw the conclusion one needs in order to justify their nonsense all week.

If you don't believe people are sent to Hell, then you don't believe in the word of God, or you use a completely different Bible than I. Amazes me how people can read the book, clearly make what they want out of it in order to suit what they want. Just because Hell makes you mad, doesn't make it go away, in spite of you thinking it somehow did.

 

[Kenny'sID]

Correct - and proper discipling will show a person where they are carrying that attitude; even if they are unaware of it. What is the main point of discipling?

The Bible is loaded with all the decipling we need. Sure, guidance can help the new Christian get there a little faster, I suppose, or maybe not...that Bible is always there, and if we apply ourselves, and really want what is has to offer, we will get it....and what we don't get, ask or hit the net, and pray.

Back to this:

2 different kinds of grace - salvic grace and sustaining grace.
Salvic for the unbeliever and sustaining for the believer. Neither are works-based.

What is this salvic grace and what does it do for the non-beleiver?

And what is sustaining grace?

 

[Dave-W]

The Bible is loaded with all the decipling we need.

In one sense yes - and in another no.

All of the INFORMATION is there. But discipleship was a well known institution in the first century and it involved a lot of one-on-one interaction. Just reading the bible does not give you that.

Here is a description of the institution of discipleship:
https://heartofgodisrael.org/messianic-messages/discipleship-is-jewish/

 

[Dave-W]

What is this salvic grace and what does it do for the non-beleiver?

"No one can come to me unless the Father draws him..."

Salvic grace gives us the ability to believe the gospel and repent from sin. It takes us from being a non-believer to a believer.

 

[Kenny'sID]

All of the INFORMATION is there. But discipleship was a well known institution in the first century and it involved a lot of one-on-one interaction. Just reading the bible does not give you that.

Again, it could help, but in this day and age, so many different flavors are taught and one can be led astray very fast by some who claim there way is right when it absolutely is not. I almost think one is better off to go at it alone. But if one can find a mentor that is true to the word, more power to them.

"No one can come to me unless the Father draws him..."

Then some are not allowed to be saved? Or are all of us drawn by God giving us his word, and all who choose to meet the requirements can be saved? As in "whosoever" believeth in him shall not perish, but have everlasting life.

Salvic grace gives us the ability to believe the gospel and repent from sin. It takes us from being a non-believer to a believer.

IOW, salvation is offered to those who want it bad enough to do what it takes? I didn't know there was a term for that...Or are you saying we don't have the ability already and some never will?

I ask because I was always under the impression, anyone who chooses to go that route can be saved. I just can't see why some would be shut out unless of course "draw" meant what I mentioned, and essentially they are not shut out.

"Knock and it will be opened unto you" seems to specify anyone.