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How reliable are Climate Models?

RickG

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How reliable are Climate Models? I'll be the first to state that no model, climate or otherwise is perfect, but then again, they are not meant be perfect. Climate models are not just predictions, they are for the most part "Scenarios"; that is what could happen if...

With respect to climate modeling, there are two questions of significant importance. (1) How accurately can they predict the past and (2), how accurately can they predict the future?

Good climate models are extremely complicated. In other words, they must contain a lot of data and variables. In constructing a climate model, one does not just input data and expect to have a reliable prediction. The main thing that goes into climate models is the parameters known to affect climate. These in short are known as "Forcings" and "Feedbacks". A forcing is something like the Sun, volcanic activity, or greenhouse gases. They are long term and directly affect climate and or temperature. Feedbacks on the other hand are short term and are a result of "Forcings". Some feedbacks are clouds, water vapor, and aerosols. Feedbacks are short lived in the atmosphere and constantly change. Feedbacks affect weather, not climate.

By understand forcings and feedbacks, in not only how they affect climate, but to what degree they affect it, is how models work. This understanding comes from actual observations. By understanding this, the test of a models accuracy can be determined by running both scenarios of the past and the future, and compare the results with the actual observed data. So, how good are they? Look at the three graphs below (source: IPCC).

IPCC_model_vs_obs.gif


In all three graphs the red is actual observed data and they gray is modeled predictions based on known sensitivity of climate forcings and feedbacks.

Notice in (a) only "natural" forcings are used in the scenario. That is the Sun and volcanic activity. It is assumed in (a) that those natural forcings did not change. Thus, the predicted outcome did not follow the actual recorded data. There have been a couple of major volcanic eruption since the 1880's affecting short term climate and the Sun did increase somewhat int total solar irradiance (TSI) up to 1940, but virtually none since then, in fact it decreased slightly. What is learned from scenario (a) is that something other than the Sun and volcanic activity has affect the actual observed climate.

Now, look at graph (b). Scenario(s) (b) are done with only anthropogenic (human influenced) forcings and no natural forcings. The anthropogenic forcings used were greenhouse gases and sulfate aerosols. Just a note, sulfate aerosols have a cooling effect unlike greenhouse gases like carbon dioxide and methane. Both carbon dioxide and sulfate aerosols come from the burning of fossil fuels. Note that in graph (b) it is fairly close to actual observed data. The big difference is the period between 1940 and 1975.

Now look at graph (c). This scenario includes both "natural" and "anthropogenic" forcings. Note that this scenario most closely correlates with what actually happened. Yet it is not completely accurate, but recall, I said no model is perfect, they are not meant to be perfect. They are only meant to give the best approximations to what could happen with what is known. Could graph (c) be better? Yes, as not all known forcings are considered in any of those models.
 

RickG

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Arctic_models_obs.gif


Here's an interesting model. One of the claims of climate change skeptics is that climatologists are alarmist. Take a look at the above graph which is an IPCC scenario showing possible Arctic sea ice extent minimums plotted against actual observations. It seems that the IPCC thus far is a bit too conservative with this one rather than being alarmist.
 
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AV1611VET

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With respect to climate modeling, there are two questions of significant importance. (1) How accurately can they predict the past and (2), how accurately can they predict the future?
How do you predict the past?
 
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RickG

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How do you predict the past?

Models are based on forcings and feedbacks from recorded data as well as "proxy" data which yield approximate climate sensitivity; that is, those things that cause temperature to increase or decrease and by how much. So, plug in those known factors and see how well they predict known past temperatures.

Take a look at my first post where I showed the three model projections. In all three of those models is the actual observed temperature from 1880 to present (red line). All three models are predicting both forward and hindcasting temperatures. Model "A" uses only natural forcings, i.e., solar irradiation and volcanic eruptions. That model didn't do a very good job because it was missing some very important parameters, changes in carbon dioxide levels other than natural. Model "B" did a better job but it ignores the natural forcings known to have occurred (changes in solar irradiance) and only uses those anthropogenic forcings, i.e., CO2 increase due to fossil fuel burning. Model "C", considers all those variables and does a very good job of both forward and backward predicting of temperature.
 
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AV1611VET

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Models are based on forcings and feedbacks from recorded data as well as "proxy" data which yield approximate climate sensitivity; that is, those things that cause temperature to increase or decrease and by how much. So, plug in those known factors and see how well they predict known past temperatures.

Take a look at my first post where I showed the three model projections. In all three of those models is the actual observed temperature from 1880 to present (red line). All three models are predicting both forward and hindcasting temperatures. Model "A" uses only natural forcings, i.e., solar irradiation and volcanic eruptions. That model didn't do a very good job because it was missing some very important parameters, changes in carbon dioxide levels other than natural. Model "B" did a better job but it ignores the natural forcings known to have occurred (changes in solar irradiance) and only uses those anthropogenic forcings, i.e., CO2 increase due to fossil fuel burning. Model "C", considers all those variables and does a very good job of both forward and backward predicting of temperature.
:blush: -- Well, I asked didn't I?

I only have myself to blame -- ;)
 
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thaumaturgy

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How do you predict the past?

This is a technique called "hindcasting".

If you want to know how a "model" works the only way to check it would be to "start the model running with inputs that matched some time in the distant past" and then let it run. Then you compare how that model lined up with the actual data.

Many "skeptics" of global climate models think (incorrectly in the extreme) that "global warming" is somehow "built into" the models. This is not correct.

So it's a never ending battle against ignorance of the skeptics when debating this.

The skeptics claim: "Models are no good!" So the scientists test the models the only way that can show anything, they turn out to be alarmingly good and the skeptic just scoffs. Based, largely on their ignorance.

If a skeptic really wants to know how a model is constructed you can check out this handy simple explanation HERE

If you have some extra time you can actually even download a working "teaching model" (EdGCM) from Columbia University.
 
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AV1611VET

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If you want to know how a "model" works the only way to check it would be to "start the model running with inputs that matched some time in the distant past" and then let it run. Then you compare how that model lined up with the actual data.
I hate to sound like I don't know what I'm talking about; but I have a quick, but appropriate, question:

Where do you park your time machine?
 
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RickG

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I hate to sound like I don't know what I'm talking about; but I have a quick, but appropriate, question:

Where do you park your time machine?

The quick and appropriate answer would be "Proxy's". Ice cores, tree rings, boreholes, corals, pollen grains, lake and ocean sediments, isotopes.
 
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AV1611VET

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The quick and appropriate answer would be "Proxy's". Ice cores, tree rings, boreholes, corals, pollen grains, lake and ocean sediments, isotopes.
That's kinda what I thought.

In other words, you weren't there -- (as usual) -- you just sound like you were.
 
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thaumaturgy

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I hate to sound like I don't know what I'm talking about; but I have a quick, but appropriate, question:

Where do you park your time machine?

Rick already pointed out "proxies", these are things that "record" the temperature or environment in their structure so it can be back-calculated what the environment, climate, temperature, etc was like.

HOWEVER we can also use direct temperature measurement for some things.

So you want to check out how various forcings work, you can go back to the temperature record. In the U.S. our HCN (Historic Climate Network) has temperature data going back to the late 1800's.

Everything is recorded there down to the "time of day" even the name of the person who took the recordings.

You can find it HERE

How the data is treated and processed to provide a useful largescale average is also openly published (has been for decades) and on the internet for years now. You can find that here.

So where do we park the time machine? Right out in the open where everyone can see it, inspect it and assess it.

The most interesting thing about our "time machine" is these various engines for the time machine (proxies and direct temp measurements) were established long before anyone thought to apply them to global climate change and until they became a political football they were never particularly "controversial"!

Why do you suppose that was? Was it because the science changed? Or was it because suddenly a bunch of people with a political agenda and almost no scientific background started to want to know why they would have to pay attention to climate science?

(That latter bit was just an aside, an editorialization, sorry.)
 
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thaumaturgy

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That's kinda what I thought.

In other words, you weren't there -- (as usual) -- you just sound like you were.

AV, I understand you have no actual training or detailed knowledge of geology or geochemistry so you will be forgiven for not understanding that what RickG is talking about here is stuff that has been used for a variety of topics in reconstructing the earth's past history without much controversy for many many years!

It's just now that it becomes a political football that we get the "peanut gallery" critiquing science they never knew even existed before.

Funny that. You see, I'd think this kind of critiquing would be more meaningful if people had been up in arms over paleoenvironmental proxy studies before it became a topic covered by "Fox News".

It is quite telling when people start critiquing certain aspects of science.
 
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RickG

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That's kinda what I thought.

In other words, you weren't there -- (as usual) -- you just sound like you were.

But the proxy's were and they still exist and reveal the information they have kept all those years. :thumbsup:
 
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AV1611VET

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It's just now that it becomes a political football that we get the "peanut gallery" critiquing science they never knew even existed before.
Kinda like embedded age, dispensationalism, diabolical mimicry, ontological subordination, supralapsarianism, and ontological reductionism, isn't it?

I can make a post using one of those as my main point; and in two minute's time, someone who can hardly spell shows up and tells me I'm wrong.
 
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AV1611VET

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But the proxy's were and they still exist and reveal the information they have kept all those years. :thumbsup:
If you say so, chief.

I won't dispute it -- I'll just assume you guys believe it.

After all, you paid good money to learn how to build and calibrate those things to get the results you're looking for.
 
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RickG

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Kinda like embedded age, dispensationalism, diabolical mimicry, ontological subordination, supralapsarianism, and ontological reductionism, isn't it?

I can make a post using one of those as my main point; and in two minute's time, someone who can hardly spell shows up and tells me I'm wrong.

Embedded age is a figment of your imagination, not reality.
 
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AV1611VET

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No, we're talking science here, AV.
So your point only flows one way?

You wanna talk science to me?

Sure thing.

Science can take a hike and die; and the sooner, the better.

When Jesus shows up, He's gonna put an end to all this junk once and for all.

I'd love to see the expression on some of your faces, but I won't get that luxury -- you'll be elsewhere.
 
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