How our view of Yahweh influences our understanding of scripture

[Jeff Saunders]

I was listening to a orthodox priest talking about how the early Greek Christians saw Yahweh as a loving Father and it wasn’t till Augustine and the pagan influences that Yahweh became a angry God who must be appeased because his creation had rejected his rule. If you see Yahweh as a loving Father who will stop at nothing to redeem his fallen creation even sacrifice himself so as not to lose anyone. If you see Yahweh as that kind of God then you will put greater emphasis on all the verses that UR camp stands on and the verses that seem to not fit you try to figure out what they are saying ( if you translate Olam/Aionios as age enduring then there is no conflict) We ( I am in the UR camp) filter all of scripture through the lens of UR. We see Yahweh as a loving Father and even in his discipline it’s for love to bring his creation back to himself. If you see Yahweh as a angry God who is upset because satan came in and spoiled his plan and now he has to torture forever all those who went against him, but fortunately he can have Jesus come and he can take his wrath out on Jesus instead of man and if you follow Jesus you are covered by the blood he shed and you get to go to heaven. Then you focus on and give greater attention to the eternal torture of people and Gods wrath because we know all should be tortured but fortunately there is way to escape that torture. Then the verses that talk about Jesus being the savior of the world and that Yahweh wants none to be lost must be explained away by adding words or subtracting words to those scriptures so they fit into your view of God. I find it interesting that on this forum the UR camp and the ECT/ conditional immortality all use the same Bible ( different translations) to prove their point. So as I hope I explained this in a way that makes sense that how we see/understand Yahweh influences how we see and read scripture.

 

[Clare73]

I was listening to a orthodox priest talking about how the early Greek Christians saw Yahweh as a loving Father and it wasn’t till Augustine and the pagan influences that Yahweh became a angry God who must be appeased because his creation had rejected his rule.

Was that Augustine. . .or was that Augustine from Scripture; i.e., Ro 5:9. . .also Jn 3:36, Ro 1:18, Ro 2:5, Ro 9:22, Ro 13:4, Eph 2:3, 1Th 5:9, Rev 6:16, Rev 19:15.

What evidence is there that the early "Greek" Christians were not aware of God's wrath?

 

[2PhiloVoid]

I was listening to a orthodox priest talking about how the early Greek Christians saw Yahweh as a loving Father and it wasn’t till Augustine and the pagan influences that Yahweh became a angry God who must be appeased because his creation had rejected his rule. If you see Yahweh as a loving Father who will stop at nothing to redeem his fallen creation even sacrifice himself so as not to lose anyone. If you see Yahweh as that kind of God then you will put greater emphasis on all the verses that UR camp stands on and the verses that seem to not fit you try to figure out what they are saying ( if you translate Olam/Aionios as age enduring then there is no conflict) We ( I am in the UR camp) filter all of scripture through the lens of UR. We see Yahweh as a loving Father and even in his discipline it’s for love to bring his creation back to himself. If you see Yahweh as a angry God who is upset because satan came in and spoiled his plan and now he has to torture forever all those who went against him, but fortunately he can have Jesus come and he can take his wrath out on Jesus instead of man and if you follow Jesus you are covered by the blood he shed and you get to go to heaven. Then you focus on and give greater attention to the eternal torture of people and Gods wrath because we know all should be tortured but fortunately there is way to escape that torture. Then the verses that talk about Jesus being the savior of the world and that Yahweh wants none to be lost must be explained away by adding words or subtracting words to those scriptures so they fit into your view of God. I find it interesting that on this forum the UR camp and the ECT/ conditional immortality all use the same Bible ( different translations) to prove their point. So as I hope I explained this in a way that makes sense that how we see/understand Yahweh influences how we see and read scripture.

It doesn't have to. It only does if a person starts with a top-down approach to the bible and in how we individually imagine God "to be."

For my part, I start from a bottom-up, emergent approach with few assumptions, as in very few.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

Was that Augustine. . .or was that Augustine from Scripture; i.e., Ro 5:9. . .also Jn 3:36, Ro 1:18, Ro 2:5, Ro 9:22, Ro 13:4, Eph 2:3, 1Th 5:9, Rev 6:16, Rev 19:15.

What evidence is there that the early "Greek" Christians were not aware of God's wrath?

Who said they were not aware of his wrath? The way it was explained to me was they didn’t see his wrath as being on the people themselves but it was against all that was destroying his beloved creation. His wrath was on that which was destroying and distorting his people from understanding and living in his affections for us as a loving Father. His wrath is a refining fire that burns away all the dross that polluted his creation.It is to set things right.

 

[Clare73]

Who said they were not aware of his wrath? The way it was explained to me was they didn’t see his wrath as being on the people themselves but it was against all that was destroying his beloved creation. His wrath was on that which was destroying and distorting his people from understanding and living in his affections for us as a loving Father. His wrath is a refining fire that burns away all the dross that polluted his creation.It is to set things right.

But how does Jn 3:36 or Ro 2:5 or Ro 5:9 or Ro 9:22 or Ro 13:4, etc. present God's wrath, as on people, or on what "was destroying his creation"?

 

[Jeff Saunders]

But how does Jn 3:36 or Ro 2:5 or Ro 5:9 or Ro 9:22 or Ro 13:4, etc. present God's wrath, as on people, or on what "was destroying his creation"?

I separate out the person from the sin that has them blinded to the truth. If you are in Christ we are clean we have given our lives over to Jesus and there is no need for his wrath, but those not in Christ still have their sin residing in them so the wrath of God is still on them , that wrath may even kill their mortal body and they must go to the lake of fire till Gods wrath has purged the sin away and they see Jesus for who he is and they bend their knee and confess with their mouth that Jesus is Lord. Then the wrath has done it’s work and they are brought into fellowship with God for the rest of the ages. This is showing exactly what my point is I see Yahweh as a loving Father who would never torture his creation for eternity, so I read these verses with that lens but If I were to see Yahweh as an angry God who must be appeased then for him to torture forever is just par for the course. Once you know the heart of Yahweh you read the words on the page with the understanding of his nature and character. It’s like if you were to read a letter that a father wrote to a son that said “If you sneak out of the house again I am going to cut off your arms and legs so you can’t do that again “ If you know the guy is a loving father do you really think he is going to cut off his sons arms and legs ? No you understand he would never do it it’s just words on a paper. You would never think he would literally do it. But if you see him as a angry guy who has done it before then maybe yes he would do it . Our perception often dictates how we interpret what we read.

 

[Der Alte]

I was listening to a orthodox priest talking about how the early Greek Christians saw Yahweh as a loving Father and it wasn’t till Augustine and the pagan influences that Yahweh became a angry God who must be appeased because his creation had rejected his rule. If you see Yahweh as a loving Father who will stop at nothing to redeem his fallen creation even sacrifice himself so as not to lose anyone. If you see Yahweh as that kind of God then you will put greater emphasis on all the verses that UR camp stands on and the verses that seem to not fit you try to figure out what they are saying ( if you translate Olam/Aionios as age enduring then there is no conflict) We ( I am in the UR camp) filter all of scripture through the lens of UR. We see Yahweh as a loving Father and even in his discipline it’s for love to bring his creation back to himself. If you see Yahweh as a angry God who is upset because satan came in and spoiled his plan and now he has to torture forever all those who went against him, but fortunately he can have Jesus come and he can take his wrath out on Jesus instead of man and if you follow Jesus you are covered by the blood he shed and you get to go to heaven. Then you focus on and give greater attention to the eternal torture of people and Gods wrath because we know all should be tortured but fortunately there is way to escape that torture. Then the verses that talk about Jesus being the savior of the world and that Yahweh wants none to be lost must be explained away by adding words or subtracting words to those scriptures so they fit into your view of God. I find it interesting that on this forum the UR camp and the ECT/ conditional immortality all use the same Bible ( different translations) to prove their point. So as I hope I explained this in a way that makes sense that how we see/understand Yahweh influences how we see and read scripture.

In the 1906 Jewish Publication Society JPS English translation of the OT. The native Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars who translated the JPS translated "olam" as "everlasting" more than 300 times.
Link to JPS: Exodus 3 JPS Tanakh 1917

 

[Der Alte]

Who said they were not aware of his wrath? The way it was explained to me was they didn’t see his wrath as being on the people themselves but it was against all that was destroying his beloved creation. His wrath was on that which was destroying and distorting his people from understanding and living in his affections for us as a loving Father. His wrath is a refining fire that burns away all the dross that polluted his creation.It is to set things right.

EOB Matthew:25:46 When he will answer them, saying: ‘Amen, I tell you: as much as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to me.’ 46 These [ones on the left vs. 41] will go away into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] punishment, [κόλασις/kolasis] but the righteous into eternal [αἰώνιος/aionios] life.”[EOB p. 96]​

…..Greek has been the language of the Eastern Greek Orthodox church since its inception, 2000 years ago +/-. Note, the native Greek speaking Eastern Orthodox Greek scholars, translators of the EOB, translated “aionios,” in Matt 25:46, as “eternal,” NOT “age.”
…..Who is better qualified than the team of native Greek speaking scholars, translators of the Eastern Greek Orthodox Bible [EOB], quoted above and below, to know the correct translation of the Greek in the N.T.?
Link to EOB online:

The New Testament ( The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible) : Free Download, Borrow, and Streaming : Internet Archive

The New Testament (The Eastern-Greek Orthodox Bible)

archive.org

…..The Greek word “kolasis” occurs only twice in the N.T., 1st occurrence Matt 25:46, above, and 2nd occurrence 1 John 4:18., below.

EOB 1 John 4:18 There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear, because fear is connected with punishment.[κόλασις/kolasis] But the one who fears is not yet perfect in love.[EOB p. 518]​

In the EOB the Greek word “kolasis” is translated “punishment” in both Matt 25:46 and 1 John 4:18.
…..Some badly informed folks claim “kolasis” really means “prune” or “correction.”
Sorry, that is impossible, both “prune” and “correction” are verbs. “Kolasis” is a noun. One cannot translate a noun as a verb.
Also according to the EOB Greek scholars “kolasis” means “punishment.”
Note: in 1 John 4:18 there is no correction, the one with “kolasis” is not made perfect. Thus “kolasis” does not/cannot mean “correction.”
The word “correction” occurs one time in the NT 2 Timothy 3:16 ἐπανόρθωσις/epanorthosis. It looks nothing like kolasis.
…..It is acknowledged that modern Greek differs from koine Greek but I am confident that the native Greek speaking EOB scholars, supported by 2000 years +/- of uninterrupted Greek scholarship, are competent enough to know the correct translation of obsolete Greek words which may have changed in meaning or are no longer in use and to translate them correctly. Just as scholars today know the meaning of obsolete English words which occur in, e.g. the 1611 KJV and can define them correctly.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

That explains a lot as to why so many continue with a heretical belief.

Everyone reads scripture through a lens, if you think you don’t you are not being honest with yourself.

 

[bling]

I was listening to a orthodox priest talking about how the early Greek Christians saw Yahweh as a loving Father and it wasn’t till Augustine and the pagan influences that Yahweh became a angry God who must be appeased because his creation had rejected his rule. If you see Yahweh as a loving Father who will stop at nothing to redeem his fallen creation even sacrifice himself so as not to lose anyone. If you see Yahweh as that kind of God then you will put greater emphasis on all the verses that UR camp stands on and the verses that seem to not fit you try to figure out what they are saying ( if you translate Olam/Aionios as age enduring then there is no conflict) We ( I am in the UR camp) filter all of scripture through the lens of UR. We see Yahweh as a loving Father and even in his discipline it’s for love to bring his creation back to himself. If you see Yahweh as a angry God who is upset because satan came in and spoiled his plan and now he has to torture forever all those who went against him, but fortunately he can have Jesus come and he can take his wrath out on Jesus instead of man and if you follow Jesus you are covered by the blood he shed and you get to go to heaven. Then you focus on and give greater attention to the eternal torture of people and Gods wrath because we know all should be tortured but fortunately there is way to escape that torture. Then the verses that talk about Jesus being the savior of the world and that Yahweh wants none to be lost must be explained away by adding words or subtracting words to those scriptures so they fit into your view of God. I find it interesting that on this forum the UR camp and the ECT/ conditional immortality all use the same Bible ( different translations) to prove their point. So as I hope I explained this in a way that makes sense that how we see/understand Yahweh influences how we see and read scripture.

I am sure you have read the prodigal son story Jesus told in Luke 15: The Parable of the Lost Son 11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them. 13 “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything. 17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him. 21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate. 25 “Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27 ‘Your brother has come,’ he replied, ‘and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.’ 28 “The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29 But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’ 31 “‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’”



If the young son had not returned to the father would the father be less loving?

If the older, after listening to the father’s pleas, decides to not go to the banquet, would that father having him dragged there made the older son happy to be there? What other words could the father use to get the older son to happily go to the party?

God is Love and heaven is like one huge Love feast and the only Love being exchanged is Godly type Love, but some people do not want to be Loved unselfishly nor to have such Love and there is a point from wince there is nothing more to convince for them to make a true free will choice to be happy with Godly Love (God knows when this point is reached), so these would be unhappy in heaven.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I am sure you have read the prodigal son story Jesus told in Luke 15: The Parable of the Lost Son 11 Jesus continued: “There was a man who had two sons. 12 The younger one said to his father, ‘Father, give me my share of the estate.’ So he divided his property between them. 13 “Not long after that, the younger son got together all he had, set off for a distant country and there squandered his wealth in wild living. 14 After he had spent everything, there was a severe famine in that whole country, and he began to be in need. 15 So he went and hired himself out to a citizen of that country, who sent him to his fields to feed pigs. 16 He longed to fill his stomach with the pods that the pigs were eating, but no one gave him anything. 17 “When he came to his senses, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have food to spare, and here I am starving to death! 18 I will set out and go back to my father and say to him: Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. 19 I am no longer worthy to be called your son; make me like one of your hired servants.’ 20 So he got up and went to his father. “But while he was still a long way off, his father saw him and was filled with compassion for him; he ran to his son, threw his arms around him and kissed him. 21 “The son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and against you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22 “But the father said to his servants, ‘Quick! Bring the best robe and put it on him. Put a ring on his finger and sandals on his feet. 23 Bring the fattened calf and kill it. Let’s have a feast and celebrate. 24 For this son of mine was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’ So they began to celebrate. 25 “Meanwhile, the older son was in the field. When he came near the house, he heard music and dancing. 26 So he called one of the servants and asked him what was going on. 27 ‘Your brother has come,’ he replied, ‘and your father has killed the fattened calf because he has him back safe and sound.’ 28 “The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. 29 But he answered his father, ‘Look! All these years I’ve been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. 30 But when this son of yours who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!’ 31 “‘My son,’ the father said, ‘you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. 32 But we had to celebrate and be glad, because this brother of yours was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.’”



If the young son had not returned to the father would the father be less loving?

If the older, after listening to the father’s pleas, decides to not go to the banquet, would that father having him dragged there made the older son happy to be there? What other words could the father use to get the older son to happily go to the party?

God is Love and heaven is like one huge Love feast and the only Love being exchanged is Godly type Love, but some people do not want to be Loved unselfishly nor to have such Love and there is a point from wince there is nothing more to convince for them to make a true free will choice to be happy with Godly Love (God knows when this point is reached), so these would be unhappy in heaven.

I don’t think it’s possible to be unhappy in heaven, that’s like saying a fish would not be happy in water. We were created for a life of love in God and until we are there we will never be happy. I believe most people reject Yahweh because they have never seen or experienced his love , sin has so distorted some people that they can’t see the truth of God. I know I have several friends who have rejected God because they have been burned by people who claim to be Christian , they say if that’s God I want nothing to do with him . They are not rejecting God they are rejecting their distorted idea of who God is. I have been told by people that they could never love a God who would torture his creation for all eternity. Once that false idea is stripped away and they see God for who he is they can’t help but love him we are all hardwired to love God that’s part of being who we were created to be.I think the idea that people would not be happy in heaven is just a way to help people justify the idea that God would torture his creation forever because no rational human can do anything other than what they are created for.

 

[Clare73]

I separate out the person from the sin that has them blinded to the truth.

They were born blinded to the truth (Jn 3:3-5) by their unregenerate nature. . .they didn't do any sin to be separated from.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

They were born blinded to the truth (Jn 3:3-5) by their unregenerate nature. . .they didn't do any sin to be separated from.

How can one be born blinded to the truth when you know nothing when born , they have done nothing either good or bad ? I am really not sure what you are asking.

 

[Clare73]

How can one be born blinded to the truth when you know nothing when born , they have done nothing either good or bad ? I am really not sure what you are asking.

Okay, they were born spiritually blind (Jn 3:3-5). . .they cannot see spiritual truth until they are spiritually born again.

 

[bling]

I don’t think it’s possible to be unhappy in heaven, that’s like saying a fish would not be happy in water. We were created for a life of love in God and until we are there we will never be happy. I believe most people reject Yahweh because they have never seen or experienced his love , sin has so distorted some people that they can’t see the truth of God. I know I have several friends who have rejected God because they have been burned by people who claim to be Christian , they say if that’s God I want nothing to do with him . They are not rejecting God they are rejecting their distorted idea of who God is. I have been told by people that they could never love a God who would torture his creation for all eternity. Once that false idea is stripped away and they see God for who he is they can’t help but love him we are all hardwired to love God that’s part of being who we were created to be.I think the idea that people would not be happy in heaven is just a way to help people justify the idea that God would torture his creation forever because no rational human can do anything other than what they are created for.

First off your analogy of a fish wanting to live in water does not fit man on earth wanting to live with God in heaven, since man can and many want to remain living on earth, while fish cannot live long out of water. Fish were made to live their whole lives in water, while human flesh could not last long in the presence of God.

Talking about people on earth: People have an extremely hard time humbling themselves to the point of accepting pure undeserved sacrificial charity as pure charity. People will do and believe almost anything to avoid humbling themselves to accepting charity as charity.

What God is strongly offering to people, is pure undeserved sacrificial charity in the form of needed forgiveness, but that requires humility to accept, while you seem to express the idea that it is knowledge man needs “people reject Yahweh because they have never seen or experienced his love”. Doing stuff which hurts others creates a burden on a person’s heart for at least a time (until they really harden their hearts). That burden on their conscience can only be relieved by accepting God’s forgiveness, but people will try drugs, alcohol, work, sex, religions, helping others and lots of stuff for sometimes temporary relief, but God is at each person’s elbow wanting for them to just humbly accept His offer.

Talking about people: People normally want to be “loved” for the way they want others to perceive them to be and not in spite of the way they really are.



You say: “I don’t think it’s possible to be unhappy in heaven”, but if the older son in the prodigal son story refused to go to the banquet (representing the kingdom which includes heaven) what more could the father say to make him happy to go, would threatening make him happy to go?

How is it a knowledge issue, when it comes to making people unselfish?

I do see the second death being annihilation, but some evil people will experience some torment like the rich man.

 

[Jeff Saunders]

First off your analogy of a fish wanting to live in water does not fit man on earth wanting to live with God in heaven, since man can and many want to remain living on earth, while fish cannot live long out of water. Fish were made to live their whole lives in water, while human flesh could not last long in the presence of God.

Talking about people on earth: People have an extremely hard time humbling themselves to the point of accepting pure undeserved sacrificial charity as pure charity. People will do and believe almost anything to avoid humbling themselves to accepting charity as charity.

What God is strongly offering to people, is pure undeserved sacrificial charity in the form of needed forgiveness, but that requires humility to accept, while you seem to express the idea that it is knowledge man needs “people reject Yahweh because they have never seen or experienced his love”. Doing stuff which hurts others creates a burden on a person’s heart for at least a time (until they really harden their hearts). That burden on their conscience can only be relieved by accepting God’s forgiveness, but people will try drugs, alcohol, work, sex, religions, helping others and lots of stuff for sometimes temporary relief, but God is at each person’s elbow wanting for them to just humbly accept His offer.

Talking about people: People normally want to be “loved” for the way they want others to perceive them to be and not in spite of the way they really are.



You say: “I don’t think it’s possible to be unhappy in heaven”, but if the older son in the prodigal son story refused to go to the banquet (representing the kingdom which includes heaven) what more could the father say to make him happy to go, would threatening make him happy to go?

How is it a knowledge issue, when it comes to making people unselfish?

I do see the second death being annihilation, but some evil people will experience some torment like the rich man.

I guess because I do not believe in conditional mortality I see man living forever, I can find no scripture that says the spirit of man dies. The body yes the soul of those who rejected Jesus yes but not the spirit. As for man wanting to stay on the earth, of course there are those who think that but it’s only because sin has so blinded them to Gods love they can’t see him for who he is , they live in a dream world. But fortunately this time in the mortal body is only temporary, this is just the beginning of the story real life does not even begin till we are with Yahweh. God never gives up on people , they are his creation and he will pursue each one till all are found (the whole leaves the 99 till he finds the one) so yes this mortal body can’t last long in the presence of Yahweh but we will all have a new body that can’t die and Yahwehs holy nature will hurt those who are not covered by Jesus blood ( the works being burned up but the spirit is alive and suffers loss ) the whole thing about the older son not wanting to go into the party has nothing to do with heaven it’s a parable about a loving father. It is a knowledge issue because what does repentance mean other than to turn 180 and change you thought process that takes understanding and that takes knowledge.

 

[bling]

I guess because I do not believe in conditional mortality I see man living forever, I can find no scripture that says the spirit of man dies. The body yes the soul of those who rejected Jesus yes but not the spirit. As for man wanting to stay on the earth, of course there are those who think that but it’s only because sin has so blinded them to Gods love they can’t see him for who he is , they live in a dream world. But fortunately this time in the mortal body is only temporary, this is just the beginning of the story real life does not even begin till we are with Yahweh. God never gives up on people , they are his creation and he will pursue each one till all are found (the whole leaves the 99 till he finds the one) so yes this mortal body can’t last long in the presence of Yahweh but we will all have a new body that can’t die and Yahwehs holy nature will hurt those who are not covered by Jesus blood ( the works being burned up but the spirit is alive and suffers loss ) the whole thing about the older son not wanting to go into the party has nothing to do with heaven it’s a parable about a loving father. It is a knowledge issue because what does repentance mean other than to turn 180 and change you thought process that takes understanding and that takes knowledge.

God rewards the saved with eternal life, so how does the sinner get eternal life?

Matthew 10:28 Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell.

The tares are burned up completely and not just purified.

John 15:6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned.

Branches burn up and are not purified.

Fire was not just used for purification, when Paul talks about our works being burned up and us being saved listen to the context:1 Corinthians 3: 12 If anyone builds on this foundation using gold, silver, costly stones, wood, hay or straw, 13 their work will be shown for what it is, because the Day will bring it to light. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire will test the quality of each person’s work. 14 If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward. 15 If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

We sometimes have around us only wood, hay and straw (uncommitted individuals) and thus all our efforts might not change them so they will be part of those burned up in the end.

.

I asked the question: “what more could the father say to make him (the older son) happy to go, would threatening make him happy to go”?

What more do those who refused to go to the banquet need to happily go to the banquet?

You can tell me: “Jesus was just filling in around His topic in a parable”, but we have explanations for some parables all of which show significance with all the details. Jesus is the perfect communicator and does not waste words or mislead us by what He says.

If the problem is just a lack of knowledge, God could and would supply everyone with that knowledge, without having to waste time here on earth. If it is the lack of knowledge, we all will receive one day, there is no reason for us to spend time on this cruel world.

 

[sawdust]

I saw the title of this thread and thought "how strange"?

I've always taken the stance that understanding scripture is what influences my view of Yahweh.

Each to his own I guess.

 

[ViaCrucis]

Having read a bit of Augustine, the idea that Augustine believed in an "angry God" seems strange to me. Augustine is famously known in the West as the "Doctor of Grace".

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Jeff Saunders]

I saw the title of this thread and thought "how strange"?

I've always taken the stance that understanding scripture is what influences my view of Yahweh.

Each to his own I guess.

But you can't understand scripture unless you understand Yahwey , his nature and character, we know he is all knowing, all powerful, has no needs , always was and always will be he is eternal, his essence is love and light . If you don't understand who Yahwey is and you read the words on the page you can come up with the wrong idea. I believe that many "Christians" have made God out to be no different than the old Greek gods. They see God as jealous ,angry, petty, one who makes mistakes, only loves them who love him and will punish those who don't do as he says for all eternity. For example we read in Genesis that God regretted making man, like he made a mistake, but if we know that God can't and doesn't make mistakes , he knew what was going to happen before he created the world nothing can take God by surprise, then we understand scripture to understand by Moses saying these things they are the closest thing that we can understand with finite minds to understanding the infinite concepts that Yahwey was doing. or another example, This is one of the prooftext that Calvinists get wrong, in Genesis we read Jacob I loved but Esau I have hated. If we understand who Yahwey is we know he is love and he can't go against his nature so he can't hate Esau , hate is the opposite of love, now we can hate so that idea we can understand but God doesn't hate anyone , he is not pleased with the actions and belief of many but he doesn't hate anyone he separates man from his sin. Thats why I believe in UR I am a UR-ite ( its a badge of honor) I know that a loving God can't create people who he knows before he created them that he would have to torcher them for all eternity, death reigning for all eternity, sin continuing for all eternity and he would have to listen to the pain and agony for all eternity. So I believe that too many have made God in mans image because they don't know who Yahwey is or his character. That is why we must interpret scripture through God, not God through our understanding of scripture.