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How old is the universe?

How old is the universe? Which option most closely says what you believe?

  • @11-20 billion years. Although I am a Christian, I totally disbelieve the biblical account of creat

  • @11-20 billion years. Scientific evidence does not really conflict with the Bible, since the script

  • @11-20 billion years. Since the Bible does not say that the six days are consecutive, I believe that

  • @11-20 billion years. Since the Hebrew word for “day” (yom) can mean an indefinite period of tim

  • @11-20 billion years. Although I may largely concur with the day-age theory, I also agree with the t

  • @11-20 billion years. Some combination of theories 3, 4 and 5.

  • @11-20 billion years. Gap theory. Since the Hebrew verb hayethah (generally translated "it was") ca

  • @6,000 years. Creation took 144 hours, and any scientific evidence to the contrary should be disreg

  • @12,000 years. Creation took 6000 years, and any scientific evidence to the contrary should be disr

  • @7-50 thousand years. I disagree with some of the assumptions required for the time since "creation


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Harpazo

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ThePhoenix said:
Don't borrow concepts that you have no clue about. Superstring theory is not the only quantum TOE, it lacks anything resembling evidence, and it has equally likely contenders (Quantum loop gravity, among others).

Don't presume to know the extent of my knowledge. I know that string theory isn't the only TOE out there (I'm not foolish enough to assert something I'm totally ignorant about in an forum of thousands), however it is the only one I've read on to date (please let me know of others) that manages to merge quantum mechanics and General Relativity (which LQG cannot do at this point in time). I'm particularly interested to see how M-theory develops in the coming years, as the little I've read on it is fascinating.

ThePhoenix said:
The huge number of dimensions required for quantum theory is more of a drawback then a plus, as it requires a huge leap to assume unobserved, bundled up dimensions.

The existence of extra-temporal dimensionality is still a topic of intense debate within the QT scientific community, so until the scientists come up with a final answer -- or at least reach a concensus -- I see no reason why the hyperspaces proposed by the string theories should be discounted.

ThePhoenix said:
The theory is elegant, but I'm afraid that given the evidence you'd be nuts to jump to conclusions.

I'm not really jumping to any conclusions. I just said that you can't prove to me that Adam and Eve, living pre-Fall, shared the same dimensionality as we do. My statement is an assertion of the incompleteness of human knowledge, and an assertion that there are some things in history that we may never have efficient knowledge of.
 
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Harpazo

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gluadys said:
I disagree. I think the textual evidence of scripture is sufficient to establish that the biblical writers did not pre-suppose a pre-Fall, pre-Flood environment much different than what we see today.

Really? Because the description of the pre-Flood Earth in Genesis is pretty different than the Earth today: no rain (Gen. 2:5), possibly no mountains (Gen. 7:20 -- the Hebrew har means "mount" or "range of hills"), substantial quantities of water contained above and below the earth (Gen. 7:11).

gluadys said:
You cannot separate evolution out from the rest of science. Evolution is a scientific theory supported by lines of evidence from many different scientific disciplines. If you try to separate it out, you do not cast doubt only on evolution, but on much of what you call "objective science" as well.

Yes, evolution is a scientific theory that draws from many disciplines, and yes, one can pursue a study of evolution by using objective methods (as all scientific methods should be). What I am talking about is neo-Darwinism, which is a composite of evolutionary theory (science) and materialistic naturalism (philosophy). Neo-Darwinists use their theo-philosophical position(s) to place presuppositional limitations on their science, and evolutionary theory to evidence their theo-philosophical position(s).

gluadys said:
More likely these new sciences only pose a problem for creationist pseudo-versions of evolution, not for the actual scientific theory. I don't see why physics would pose a problem for evolution at all, and I have not heard of anything in information theory or biochemistry that does so.

Evolution cannot (or at least has yet to) provide a basis for the origin of the information contained in the genetic code of biological systems. Evolution can at best offer hypotheses as to how the individual biochemical/genetic components came about, but not for how the genetic system of information storage (b/c that's what it is) came about. That's not very informative, I know, but I have to run to class. If you're still interested, after MCATs this weekend I'll try to dig up some of the data I have on information in biological systems so I can give you a more complete response. Ditto about biochem and physics.

***
One last thing:
I think it's important to remember on threads like these that the age of the universe and whether billion year evolution or six day creation is true is all secondary to faith in Christ. Augustine said: In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; and in all things, charity. Topics like these are non-essentials, so let's debate them but not divide over them.
 
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lucaspa

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Harpazo said:
Really? Because the description of the pre-Flood Earth in Genesis is pretty different than the Earth today: no rain (Gen. 2:5), possibly no mountains (Gen. 7:20 -- the Hebrew har means "mount" or "range of hills"), substantial quantities of water contained above and below the earth (Gen. 7:11).
Harpazo, the location of pre-Flood Eden is identified by post-Flood rivers. Now, if the geography had radically changed, this could not possibly be done. If the geography had drastically changed, then you can't take this part of the Bible as literal history.

Now,the substantial quantities of water contained above and below the earth is the Babylonian cosmology. That's not accurate, just what the Babylonians thought the shape of the earth was.

What I am talking about is neo-Darwinism, which is a composite of evolutionary theory (science) and materialistic naturalism (philosophy).
Neo-Darwinism is not a philosophy, but just an update of a scientific theory. It is simply the marriage of Darwinism and genetics. No philosophy involved.
 
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gluadys

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Harpazo said:
Really? Because the description of the pre-Flood Earth in Genesis is pretty different than the Earth today: no rain (Gen. 2:5), possibly no mountains (Gen. 7:20 -- the Hebrew har means "mount" or "range of hills"), substantial quantities of water contained above and below the earth (Gen. 7:11).

Except for the "no rain" all of these conditions are seen by the biblical writers to be post-flood as well as pre-flood. And the plain meaning of Gen. 2:5 is to explain why there were not yet any plants on the earth. It doesn't imply there was still no rain after the Garden was planted---and certainly not through all the centuries until the flood. Nothing in Genesis suggests that the rain of Gen. 7:12 was literally the first time in history that rain had fallen on earth.


Yes, evolution is a scientific theory that draws from many disciplines, and yes, one can pursue a study of evolution by using objective methods (as all scientific methods should be). What I am talking about is neo-Darwinism, which is a composite of evolutionary theory (science) and materialistic naturalism (philosophy). Neo-Darwinists use their theo-philosophical position(s) to place presuppositional limitations on their science, and evolutionary theory to evidence their theo-philosophical position(s).

Neo-Darwinism is simply Darwin's theory as modified to take into account what we have learned about genetics and DNA. Scientists of every philosophical and religious stripe who do research on evolution begin with neo-Darwinism--though some are more stringent about it than others.

Materialistic naturalism is a philosophy espoused by some scientists and by many non-scientists as well. It pre-dates the theory of evolution---for there have always been those who are philosophically inclined to deny any reality to non-material being. And certainly many of this mind claim enthusiastically and erroneously that evolution supports their philosophy.

If your quarrel is with a materialistic and atheistic philosophy, it should be taken to another board, as this thread is in the Christians-only section and you will not find supporters of materialistic naturalism here.

It is not necessary to take issue with the science of evolution to argue against materialistic naturalism.

Evolution cannot (or at least has yet to) provide a basis for the origin of the information contained in the genetic code of biological systems. Evolution can at best offer hypotheses as to how the individual biochemical/genetic components came about, but not for how the genetic system of information storage (b/c that's what it is) came about. That's not very informative, I know, but I have to run to class. If you're still interested, after MCATs this weekend I'll try to dig up some of the data I have on information in biological systems so I can give you a more complete response. Ditto about biochem and physics.


Why does it need to? Clearly the information had to be in place at the origin of life, if not before. So it falls more into the field of abiogenesis. I don't dispute that some hypothesis needs to be developed. But since evolution is about what happens to living forms after life appeared and the information question pertains to the state of replication before life appeared, faulting evolution for the imperfect state of abiogenesis theories seems beside the point.

***
One last thing:
I think it's important to remember on threads like these that the age of the universe and whether billion year evolution or six day creation is true is all secondary to faith in Christ. Augustine said: In essentials, unity; in non-essentials, liberty; and in all things, charity. Topics like these are non-essentials, so let's debate them but not divide over them.

Agreed. God bless
 
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tqpix

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I already posted this in this thread but decided to post it here too.

Here is my take on the Science vs. Bible issue:

When it comes to historical science, no one really knows if what it teaches is right or wrong. Sure, scientists might say that it's right, because they have "proof", but the only way to prove what really happened in the Earth's history is to go back in time and see for ourselves; of course, this is impossible.

Take for example, how long it took for the Earth to come into being. Scientists say it took millions of years, while the Bible says it took only six days (some Christians argue that the "day" in Genesis actually refers to a period of time).

The only way to really verify that it took millions of years to form the Earth is to go back in time and see the Earth being formed. The testing that the scientists use to measure the age of the Earth could be faulty; the only way to know for sure that the testing works is to go back in time, see how long it took to form the Earth, and compare it with the test results.

As for the six day creation, this is where faith comes in. If God says it took six days to form the Earth, we must believe him, because we know that God does not lie.
 
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Captain_Jack_Sparrow

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tqpix said:
I already posted this in this thread but decided to post it here too.

Here is my take on the Science vs. Bible issue:

When it comes to historical science, no one really knows if what it teaches is right or wrong. Sure, scientists might say that it's right, because they have "proof", but the only way to prove what really happened in the Earth's history is to go back in time and see for ourselves; of course, this is impossible.

Take for example, how long it took for the Earth to come into being. Scientists say it took millions of years, while the Bible says it took only six days (some Christians argue that the "day" in Genesis actually refers to a period of time).

The only way to really verify that it took millions of years to form the Earth is to go back in time and see the Earth being formed. The testing that the scientists use to measure the age of the Earth could be faulty; the only way to know for sure that the testing works is to go back in time, see how long it took to form the Earth, and compare it with the test results.

As for the six day creation, this is where faith comes in. If God says it took six days to form the Earth, we must believe him, because we know that God does not lie.

If science had to work by your criteria you would not be tapping away on a computer keyboard - you would still be in a cave painting on a wall.
 
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Curt

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I personally would rather be in a cave writting on a wall than in hell tapping on a keyboard.

It is very dangerous being a teacher of false doctrine, and denying the integrity of The Bible. God identified the 6 days of Creation when He told the Jews to work 6 days, and rest the 7th the same as He did when He created it. So that makes all the scientists that say something different liars, and satan is the father of all lies.
 
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Karl - Liberal Backslider

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Curt said:
I personally would rather be in a cave writting on a wall than in hell tapping on a keyboard.

It is very dangerous being a teacher of false doctrine, and denying the integrity of The Bible. God identified the 6 days of Creation when He told the Jews to work 6 days, and rest the 7th the same as He did when He created it. So that makes all the scientists that say something different liars, and satan is the father of all lies.

Take that back. I will not stand here and watch you besmirtch the reputation of scientists because what they say doesn't fit with your simplistic interpretation of Genesis 1.

Even if (and read a subjunctive into the following verb) they were wrong, this would not make them liars. Liars are people who say things they know are not true.

Your next post should be a retraction or I will forward your nasty little exercises in character assassination to the moderators.
 
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artybloke

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I personally would rather be in a cave writting on a wall than in hell tapping on a keyboard.

Are you accusing people who don't believe in your literalistic version of scripture to be un-Christian? Because if you are you're in breach of Forum rules, and if you don't either correct this impression or apologise, I will report you.
 
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MSBS

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TasManOfGod said:
How old did Jesus Christ (the Word become flesh) know creation to be after all He was there when it happened? Surely if it was more than 4000 years He would have corrected the belief of the time.
Hmmm.... Maybe because that figure wasn't calculated until Bishop Ussher did it some time in the 17th century. Different biblical literalist scholars give us dates ranging from 4004 BC to 12,028 BC for the creation of Adam, with these dates calculated a long time after Christ would have been here to correct these dates. And ultimately, I really fail to see the relevance the date of creation has on Jesus' message to us.
 
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TasManOfGod

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MSBS said:
Hmmm.... Maybe because that figure wasn't calculated until Bishop Ussher did it some time in the 17th century. Different biblical literalist scholars give us dates ranging from 4004 BC to 12,028 BC for the creation of Adam, with these dates calculated a long time after Christ would have been here to correct these dates. And ultimately, I really fail to see the relevance the date of creation has on Jesus' message to us.
Hey it aint that hard All the time period/ages/years etc are given
I have done it myself The only area where there may be some error creaping in is the time the Children of Israel were in captivity in Egypt - but that could only account for 100 year error at the most
 
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Sinai

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tqpix said:

As for the six day creation, this is where faith comes in. If God says it took six days to form the Earth, we must believe him, because we know that God does not lie.
Of the ten options listed in the poll, only the first one totally rejects the biblical account of creation. Although the second option rejects a literal interpretation and the gap theory may be accused of questionable applications of both scripture and science, neither of those options fully reject the scriptural account of creation. The other seven options accept a rather literal reading of the first chapter of Genesis.

Since the last three options listed generally restrict the meaning of the Hebrew yom to mean either a 24-hour day or a 1000-year day, they are therefore incompatible with the bulk of scientific evidence regarding the age of the universe. Thus, they often say that God is testing our faith by making the Earth and the universe appear to be older than what the Bible says they actually are, and the important thing is not to let our faith waiver in the face of such evidence (though some will admit to the accuracy of the scientific evidence--but deny the conclusions drawn by mainstream scientists).

The other four options are for those persons who do not think that a literal reading of the Bible's creation account in the first chapter of Genesis necessarily contradicts a literal reading of the scientific evidence regarding the age of the universe. The principal rationales they use tend to be:
  1. If God's word in the Bible is true and if the evidence left by God's creation is also true, then the two should not conflict. It might be noted that this is also a principal rationale used by the folks who choose the second option (non-literal interpretation); and
  2. The Hebrew word used in the Bible is yom. Although the English translation of yom is day, yom was not limited to 24-hours. It could mean a period of time either shorter than 24 hours (daylight hours, for example) or longer than 24 hours, such as an age, era, epoch, or a period of time of uncertain or undetermined length.
There are different options because there are different variations. In addition to the basic Day-Age Theory, there is an option for those who point out that the Bible does not say that the periods of creative activity were necessarily consecutive (i.e., each yom of creation could have been separated by periods of time when God was not creating, but was rather allowing His creation to develop and be prepared for the next creative yom). There is also an option for those who agree with Dr. Gerald Schroeder that each period of creation should be measured as it occurred (i.e., traveling with the flow of creation from the moment of initial creation toward the present time--rather than trying to measure the time by looking backward against the creative process). Because scientific evidence indicates that the creative expansion of the universe was travelling near the speed of light shortly after the big bang, time dilation would cause a few hours measured at that speed to equal a billion years looking backward in time.

All of us in this forum are Christians. Thus, we generally accept the Bible as being God's word. Since, however, our English translations of Genesis refer to six days of creation, we may--and do--have different approaches to the large body of scientific evidence that indicates that the universe is billions of years old. That is why I set up this poll: So that you can express your opinion. Since Christian Forums limits polls to 10 options, I had to summarize the major positions I have seen expressed by Christians. I therefore request that you vote for the option that most nearly expresses your belief, and then tell us why you think as you do. If the option that comes closest to your belief does not exactly state your position, you may also express what your actual belief is in your post.

Thank you.
 
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Curt

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1 Tim 1:10-11
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
(KJV)

The Bible calls those who promote unsound doctrine liars, so if you want to ban me I guess in all fairness you should also ban The Bible. This Scripture written by God tells you the totol time of creation of all things.

Exod 31:14-17
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
(KJV)

Now anyone who says that It took God any longer than this to create this earth is calling God a liar, and in doing so that makes them a liar. So you should be reporting them for calling God a liar. But you do what you feel you should do and I will just keep praising, and thanking God for His Scriptures which contain His Truth, and for His Holy Spirit for revealing His Truth to those who have open minds to receive it.
 
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cygnusx1

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For me Genesis is a History book,not a book of poems,symbols or prophecies.
I see no reason to change, re-interpret,add or detract anything from the first chapters,(where do you stop?)
I acknowledge that with God all things are possible.So creation in 6 days isn't a problem.
I also think it better explains the Sabbath day if God purposely took 6 literal days to create everything and then rested on the 7th.
I love the book of Genesis!!
 
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ThePhoenix

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Harpazo said:
Don't presume to know the extent of my knowledge. I know that string theory isn't the only TOE out there (I'm not foolish enough to assert something I'm totally ignorant about in an forum of thousands), however it is the only one I've read on to date (please let me know of others) that manages to merge quantum mechanics and General Relativity (which LQG cannot do at this point in time). I'm particularly interested to see how M-theory develops in the coming years, as the little I've read on it is fascinating.
It manages to merge them, but I don't have to enjoy the merger. It's an ugly theory, it would help if the calculations were not approximations of approximations.

The existence of extra-temporal dimensionality is still a topic of intense debate within the QT scientific community, so until the scientists come up with a final answer -- or at least reach a concensus -- I see no reason why the hyperspaces proposed by the string theories should be discounted.
Yeah, but to state that our dimensionality is 10 like it's a fact based on String theory?
I'm not really jumping to any conclusions. I just said that you can't prove to me that Adam and Eve, living pre-Fall, shared the same dimensionality as we do. My statement is an assertion of the incompleteness of human knowledge, and an assertion that there are some things in history that we may never have efficient knowledge of.
Yeah, but one thing we have knowledge of is the age of the earth. It ain't 6000 years old.
 
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ThePhoenix

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Curt said:
1 Tim 1:10-11
10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
(KJV)

The Bible calls those who promote unsound doctrine liars, so if you want to ban me I guess in all fairness you should also ban The Bible. This Scripture written by God tells you the totol time of creation of all things.
Y'know equating your interpretation with the word of God breaks the 1st commandment. Just a minor point. Now I could be all snide like a creationist and say "Hope it's warm and cheery down there, and don't let the sulpher stench get to you" but really that would be kinda nasty, right?
Exod 31:14-17
14 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
15 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.
16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.
17 It is a sign between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.
(KJV)
Which directly contradicts genesis 2. Oh no, crisis of faith!
Now anyone who says that It took God any longer than this to create this earth is calling God a liar, and in doing so that makes them a liar. So you should be reporting them for calling God a liar. But you do what you feel you should do and I will just keep praising, and thanking God for His Scriptures which contain His Truth, and for His Holy Spirit for revealing His Truth to those who have open minds to receive it.
No, we're calling your interpretation wrong. I'm sorry if you dislike the concept that you might be as fallible as everyone else, but honestly - it's not my problem.
 
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