• Starting today August 7th, 2024, in order to post in the Married Couples, Courting Couples, or Singles forums, you will not be allowed to post if you have your Marital status designated as private. Announcements will be made in the respective forums as well but please note that if yours is currently listed as Private, you will need to submit a ticket in the Support Area to have yours changed.

How old is the universe?

How old is the universe? Which option most closely says what you believe?

  • @11-20 billion years. Although I am a Christian, I totally disbelieve the biblical account of creat

  • @11-20 billion years. Scientific evidence does not really conflict with the Bible, since the script

  • @11-20 billion years. Since the Bible does not say that the six days are consecutive, I believe that

  • @11-20 billion years. Since the Hebrew word for “day” (yom) can mean an indefinite period of tim

  • @11-20 billion years. Although I may largely concur with the day-age theory, I also agree with the t

  • @11-20 billion years. Some combination of theories 3, 4 and 5.

  • @11-20 billion years. Gap theory. Since the Hebrew verb hayethah (generally translated "it was") ca

  • @6,000 years. Creation took 144 hours, and any scientific evidence to the contrary should be disreg

  • @12,000 years. Creation took 6000 years, and any scientific evidence to the contrary should be disr

  • @7-50 thousand years. I disagree with some of the assumptions required for the time since "creation


Results are only viewable after voting.
Status
Not open for further replies.

leoj

Junior Member
Mar 1, 2004
37
0
Visit site
✟22,647.00
Faith
Christian
Future Preacher said:
Why would it take God thousands of years to create everything?
lucaspa said:
Because that's how He chose to do it. He left the evidence saying so in His Creation.
What evidence do you mean? If you are talking about Carbon Dating then have a look at this:

Carbon Dating isn't really evidence for thousands or millions of years, the following is an extract from Vol.26 No.1 of the Creation Magazine which is from Answers in Genesis:

'Carbon-14 dates are determined from the measured ratio of radioactive carbon-14 to normal carbon-12 (14C/12C). Used on samples which were once alive, such as wood or bone, the measured 14C/12C ratio is compared with the ratio in living things today. The date is calculated by assuming the change of 14C in the sample is due entirely to radioactive decay. It is also assumed that carbon has been in equilibrium on the earth for hundreds of thousands of years.
Wrong dates are usually caused by: assuming a wrong initial 14C/12C ratio, contamination, or leaching. Samples from before the Flood, or from the early post-Flood period, give ages that are too old by tens of thousands of years. This is because the Flood buried lots of 12C-rich plants and animals. This would result in a lower 14C/12C ratio, which is wrongly misinterpreted as great age.'

There were some other dating methods explained in the magazine but it would take too long to write it all. There is probably more stuff about other dating methods on the Answers in Genesis website (you can find out their website by searching on Google)
 
Upvote 0

Bushido216

Well-Known Member
Aug 30, 2003
6,383
210
39
New York
✟30,062.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Engaged
Politics
US-Democrat
leoj said:
What evidence do you mean? If you are talking about Carbon Dating then have a look at this:

Carbon Dating isn't really evidence for thousands or millions of years, the following is an extract from Vol.26 No.1 of the Creation Magazine which is from Answers in Genesis:

'Carbon-14 dates are determined from the measured ratio of radioactive carbon-14 to normal carbon-12 (14C/12C). Used on samples which were once alive, such as wood or bone, the measured 14C/12C ratio is compared with the ratio in living things today. The date is calculated by assuming the change of 14C in the sample is due entirely to radioactive decay. It is also assumed that carbon has been in equilibrium on the earth for hundreds of thousands of years.
Wrong dates are usually caused by: assuming a wrong initial 14C/12C ratio, contamination, or leaching. Samples from before the Flood, or from the early post-Flood period, give ages that are too old by tens of thousands of years. This is because the Flood buried lots of 12C-rich plants and animals. This would result in a lower 14C/12C ratio, which is wrongly misinterpreted as great age.'

There were some other dating methods explained in the magazine but it would take too long to write it all. There is probably more stuff about other dating methods on the Answers in Genesis website (you can find out their website by searching on Google)
See, you'd have us by our collective scrotums if C-14 dating was the only dating we used, or even the dating used to calculate the age of the earth.
 
Upvote 0

lucaspa

Legend
Oct 22, 2002
14,569
416
New York
✟39,809.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
leoj said:
What evidence do you mean? If you are talking about Carbon Dating then have a look at this:
I wasn't talking about C14 dating. That only goes back 50,000 years anyway. If you want the longer time frames, the Rb-Sr isochron method is very good. No assumptions and the isochron line corrects for any of the "problems" the ICR and AiG raises. However, I wasn't even thinking about radiometric decay. Geologists figured an age of the earth in the hundreds of millions of years by 1830, long before radioactivity had even been discovered.

Carbon Dating isn't really evidence for thousands or millions of years,
Of course not. As I said, C14 has a half-live of about 5,400 years, so it can't be used for anything older than 50,000 years. Your statement is true but a strawman.

the following is an extract from Vol.26 No.1 of the Creation Magazine which is from Answers in Genesis:

'Carbon-14 dates are determined from the measured ratio of radioactive carbon-14 to normal carbon-12 (14C/12C). Used on samples which were once alive, such as wood or bone, the measured 14C/12C ratio is compared with the ratio in living things today. The date is calculated by assuming the change of 14C in the sample is due entirely to radioactive decay. It is also assumed that carbon has been in equilibrium on the earth for hundreds of thousands of years.
No more than 50,000 years, since that is the limit of the dating. But the equilibrium is between generation of C14 in the atmosphere from N14 and decay of C14 back to N14.

If AiG can't get a simple thing like the limit of C14 dating right, why do you trust them on the more complicated matters?

Wrong dates are usually caused by: assuming a wrong initial 14C/12C ratio, contamination, or leaching. Samples from before the Flood, or from the early post-Flood period, give ages that are too old by tens of thousands of years. This is because the Flood buried lots of 12C-rich plants and animals. This would result in a lower 14C/12C ratio, which is wrongly misinterpreted as great age.'
The problem here is the assumption that the Flood happened. But as I noted, the Flood was falsified by other evidence a century before radioactivity was even discovered and 120 years before C14 dating was first used. So trying to use the Flood to get rid of C14 dating won't work because the Flood is already falsified.
 
Upvote 0

leoj

Junior Member
Mar 1, 2004
37
0
Visit site
✟22,647.00
Faith
Christian
Sorry I should have researhced more into the dating methods, but it's a bit complicated for me becuase I'm still in secondary school.
lucaspa said:
The problem here is the assumption that the Flood happened. But as I noted, the Flood was falsified by other evidence a century before radioactivity was even discovered and 120 years before C14 dating was first used. So trying to use the Flood to get rid of C14 dating won't work because the Flood is already falsified.
What evidence do you mean by evidence that falsifies the flood?
 
Upvote 0

lucaspa

Legend
Oct 22, 2002
14,569
416
New York
✟39,809.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
leoj said:
Sorry I should have researhced more into the dating methods, but it's a bit complicated for me becuase I'm still in secondary school.
No problem. You posted what you thought was honest information and we gave you the correct info. That's what we are here for. I hope it taught you to be a bit more skeptical and cautious about AiG.

But don't let that stop you from asking. We'll give you the best, most accurate info we have. Look, leoj, we [the TEs here] have all looked at the scientific data in detal. If we had really found something that we think would have destroyed Christianity, we would tell you. Instead, none of us have problems with accepting evolution and believing in God and Christianity.

What evidence do you mean by evidence that falsifies the flood?
In 1780, naturalists thought that all the rocks were formed by the Flood. Basalts and granites were thought to have precipitated from minerals held in solution during the Flood. In 1790 James Hutton published a book on geology and showed that basalts and granites were once molten, not precipitated. That falsified that the Flood was responsible for those rocks.

From 1790-1820 more and more geologists began looking at the rocks and layers. They applied some common sense rules -- the strata on the bottom was laid down before the strata on top of it, for instance. A no-brainer, but you have to start somewhere.

Anyway, geologists noted metamorphic rocks in particular. These had obviously been subjected to heat and pressure. Many of the metamorphic rocks are conglomerates -- they are pebbles embedded in a harder, smoother rock [that once was mud or sand]. Many of the metamorphic rocks also contain fossils -- distorted by the warping of the rock by heat and pressure. Now, metamorphic rocks could not have been deposited by the Flood. They start out as regular sedimentary rock and then are compressed and heated such that the the rock is at least plastic and often partly melted. No way a Flood could do that. So there went any strata with metamorphic rock, and the strata below them, since metamorphic rock would not have enough time to form if the sediments were deposited after the Flood. With me so far?

Then there are some specific featuresa and locations. One is the volcanic cones near Auvergne, France. These are very delicate but have layers of sedimentary rock around their base. The rocks show that the cones didn't poke up thru the sedimentary rocks, but that they were deposited after the volcanoes formed. Well, if the rocks had been laid down by a Flood, the Flood water would have destroyed the cones. Then there are the coal beds in England. These are not one bed at one level, but several beds at several levels. Well, if the coal was due to the compression of plants killed by the Flood, they should all be at one level -- ground level when the Flood began -- and they should all have the same strata above them. But that isn't what happens. Coal bed A has 10 strata above it while coal bed B only has 7. Do you see the problem for the Flood? Such could not happen if the Flood was true.

Finally, by 1825 Rev. William Buckland, head of geology at Oxford, published the last gasp of Flood Geology. He said that only the topmost gravels and morraines were due to the Flood. Sediments beneath them were laid down by other processes. He tried to correlate that all around Europe and the Mediterranean. However, there were several problems. As Louis Agassiz showed in the 1830s, most of those gravels and morraines could not have been deposited by running water. They were too compact and together. Instead, they were pushed by ice -- glaciers. So even they weren't caused by the Flood.

There was another problem. Remember, according to the Bible, humans are advanced enough technologically that Noah can build an Ark. That means metal working to make the metal tools to cut and shape the wood and metal nails to hold the planks of wood together. However, no one could find any evidence of such a civilization or even more primitive tools beneath (before) the strata said to be from the Flood. By 1831 enough searching had been done that such evidence should have been found if it existed. So Rev. Adam Sedgwick, when he retired that year as President of the Royal Geological Society, announced that the Flood had never happened as a world-wide event that explained geology and the fossil record. He left open the possibility of a local flood in the Tigris-Euphrates Valley.

So, that is a quick overview of just the tiniest fraction of geology that falsified the Flood. Biogeography also falsifies the Flood; there is no way that the distribution of animals around the world can be explained by migration from the resting place of the Ark.
 
Upvote 0

lucaspa

Legend
Oct 22, 2002
14,569
416
New York
✟39,809.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
leoj said:
What I don't understand is how you can fit millions of years in the bible when the geneologies (in the bible) only go back around 6,000 years.
What is the purpose of the geneologies? Is it really to tell you how old the earth is? No. The purpose of the geneologies is to tie Jesus to the House of David so that Jesus can seem to fulfill the prophecies of the OT so that Christians can convert the Jews. Both geneologies are flawed anyway since they trace Jesus' "ancestry" back thru Joseph. But Joseph wasn't the father, anyway, right?

We are not fitting millions of years "in the bible." Instead, we are saying that God in His Creation tells us the earth is billions of years old.
 
Upvote 0

gluadys

Legend
Mar 2, 2004
12,958
682
Toronto
✟39,020.00
Faith
Protestant
Politics
CA-NDP
lucaspa said:
In 1780, naturalists thought that all the rocks were formed by the Flood. ...

Thanks for this helpful summary, lucaspa. I would suggest one change. Begin it with the work of Nicolas Steno whose "Prodromus" established as early as 1669 the principle of superposition (which you mention in the second paragraph of your summary) and the principle that rock must form around a fossil, guaranteeing that the fossil and the rock are the same age.
 
Upvote 0

danrusdad

Active Member
Mar 17, 2004
47
1
52
Tenessee
✟22,672.00
Faith
Baptist
The question is flawed because it assumes there is only one time frame of reference throughout the universe. General relativity established that time measurements can be different depending on your frame of reference. Both are right within their own timeframe. From the Genesis account its clear that the frame of reference is the earth; therefore, a straight forward, plain sense reading of the scripture would seem to indicate a roughly 6000 yr history for the earth. This doesn't mean the rest of the universe is only 6000 years, it's perfectly, scientifically valid to have the universe some 15-20 billion y.o. as it appears, and still have a "young" earth of some 6000 years.
 
Upvote 0

lucaspa

Legend
Oct 22, 2002
14,569
416
New York
✟39,809.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
danrusdad said:
The question is flawed because it assumes there is only one time frame of reference throughout the universe. General relativity established that time measurements can be different depending on your frame of reference. Both are right within their own timeframe. From the Genesis account its clear that the frame of reference is the earth; therefore, a straight forward, plain sense reading of the scripture would seem to indicate a roughly 6000 yr history for the earth. This doesn't mean the rest of the universe is only 6000 years, it's perfectly, scientifically valid to have the universe some 15-20 billion y.o. as it appears, and still have a "young" earth of some 6000 years.
1. Relativity, a la Schroeder, isn't going to work. Notice that Schroeder's calculations based on relativity give an age of the universe of 15-20 billion years, with Schroeder saying it's 18 billion years old. However, the most recent data places the age of the universe at 13.4 billion plus or minus 0.4 billion. That means it is younger than the relativity calculations can allow it to be. Schroeder is wrong. He did what a good scientist should do: he made a risky prediction. But when the prediction is falsified, it means the theory got falsified.
2. The data on the earth indicate it must be much, much older than 6,000 years.
 
Upvote 0

lucaspa

Legend
Oct 22, 2002
14,569
416
New York
✟39,809.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
Defens0rFidei said:
Whether it is 6000 years old or 6,000,000,000 years old...it still had a beginning...and you can't have a beginning without a Beginner. I tend to think that is a more important point to emphasize.
1. The "Beginner" doesn't have to be God. It could be something else, like quantum fluctuation or Logical and Mathematical Necessity.
2. Two of the candidates for First Cause have a universe without a beginning: No Boundary and now Ekpyrotic.

So, I'm afraid you can't use the "beginning" of the universe to "prove" the existence of God.
 
Upvote 0

lucaspa

Legend
Oct 22, 2002
14,569
416
New York
✟39,809.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
leoj said:
Where do you fit millions (or billions) of years, if you don't fit them in the bible?
leoj, the Bible was written to teach you how to go to heaven, not how the heavens go. You fit the billions of years into God's Creation. You realize that the creation stories in Genesis were written to tell about theological truths, not how the universe was created or what the time frame was.
 
Upvote 0

LynneClomina

Well-Known Member
Jan 31, 2004
1,929
101
51
Canada
Visit site
✟25,268.00
Faith
Calvinist
i couldnt vote, becuase i believe the earth is only about 6,000 years old. about 5,050 to 6,050 years old, specifically. i believe ussher's (is that the name?) to be pretty accurate, he said around 4004 BC. that would be 6,004 years ago, if he were bang on. the bible is pretty clear in its geneologies how old so-and-so was when he begat so-and-so, and it lists everyone from adam to Jesus, and well, we know when Jesus was here pretty closely.
 
Upvote 0

lucaspa

Legend
Oct 22, 2002
14,569
416
New York
✟39,809.00
Gender
Male
Faith
Methodist
Marital Status
Private
LynneClomina said:
i couldnt vote, becuase i believe the earth is only about 6,000 years old. about 5,050 to 6,050 years old, specifically. i believe ussher's (is that the name?) to be pretty accurate, he said around 4004 BC. that would be 6,004 years ago, if he were bang on. the bible is pretty clear in its geneologies how old so-and-so was when he begat so-and-so, and it lists everyone from adam to Jesus, and well, we know when Jesus was here pretty closely.
There was a choice for 6,000 years old. Why didn't you pick that one?
 
Upvote 0
Status
Not open for further replies.